Author Topic: Mixed choirs  (Read 7811 times)

Offline Julian

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #90 on: April 29, 2017, 11:04:08 AM »
Boys choirs always have the never ceasing threat of a professional offence taking mother or father who make a fuss because their precious darling isn't admitted. Equality legislation can then be invoked abusively because better choirs have professional directors and choristers.

These offence-takers and professional agitators, who can no doubt crawl out of the woodwork in an instant, would surely have already attempted to shut down the aforesaid school for "discrimination"? Maybe they've not thought about it and if they did they might be successful. This is how far people bend backwards these days to "keep the peace". I would have more hope than you have because if they can have a boys choir school without fuss in a perverse liberal university town like Cambridge, MA, then you probably could have one anywhere.
 

Offline Prayerful

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #91 on: April 29, 2017, 03:55:29 PM »
Boys choirs always have the never ceasing threat of a professional offence taking mother or father who make a fuss because their precious darling isn't admitted. Equality legislation can then be invoked abusively because better choirs have professional directors and choristers.

These offence-takers and professional agitators, who can no doubt crawl out of the woodwork in an instant, would surely have already attempted to shut down the aforesaid school for "discrimination"? Maybe they've not thought about it and if they did they might be successful. This is how far people bend backwards these days to "keep the peace". I would have more hope than you have because if they can have a boys choir school without fuss in a perverse liberal university town like Cambridge, MA, then you probably could have one anywhere.

There was one or two instances with Anglican Cathedral choirs in England some time ago. A confluence leftism and religion can create a horrible person with an unlimited sense of entitlement, and an unteachable, unerring belief in their own rightness.
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #92 on: April 29, 2017, 11:17:42 PM »

There was one or two instances with Anglican Cathedral choirs in England some time ago.

There was a BBC mini-series about the politics surrounding a boys' choir.

 

Offline The Harlequin King

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #93 on: May 02, 2017, 01:05:23 AM »
It's just things like this article from "New Liturgical Movement" though that just grates my heart. Mixed choirs in plain clothes are one thing, but the females in the choir here are fully dressed in cassock and surplice. How can this be acceptable to any traditional Catholic? http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2017/04/st-marys-schola-issues-recording-of.html#.WQQg1fkrKM8

Surely there is no way this was allowed before the 1960s? Or am I wrong? Even in the Novus Ordo this sort of thing is rare. And people seem to stay silent because they don't know any different, or not to rock the boat. Is not "altar girls" at the TLM one very small step away from this? Then we might as well go to the Novus Ordo and not labour for the traditions that nurtured the Saints. So, all this stuff to me seems quite serious, but to many others does not.

You are correct, I don't think any Catholic church pre-1970 would have had female choristers in cassock/surplice; and even in Novus Ordo parishes which have robed choirs, cassock/surplice would be an odd choice for women. This practice is probably inherited from those Anglican/Episcopal churches which continued the tradition of surpliced choirs in the chancel but eventually admitted women to their ranks.

A charitable (and private) comment in their direction might be of use, but I wouldn't give them too much grief since St. Mary's, Norwalk is a model diocesan parish in every other respect.

Until all-male choirs can be restored, a nice compromise for vesture is what the Juventutem choirs do: cassock/surplice for male singers, and capes in the style of religious habits for female singers.
 

Offline Geremia

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #94 on: September 10, 2017, 11:00:31 PM »
This was discussed on MusicSacra forum. See this post for references. It seems the confusion is due to an equivocal use of the term "choir" (choir in the sanctuary vs. choir loft or somewhere outside the sanctuary).

Also, from here:

Quote
PART I.  Can women be permitted to sing in the choir in church?
 

 The principles are given by Pope St. Pius X in his motu proprio on the restoration of Sacred Music, and in particular of the ancient Gregorian Chant. This document of November 22, 1903, is entitled Tra le sollecitudine and is published in its entirety in the March 1995 issue of The Angelus (pp.36-40).
The pope states repeatedly that the Sacred Chant is an integral part of the liturgy, directed to the glory of God and the sanctification and edification of the faithful. (§1) It is consequently not a performance, but a part of the act of divine worship. His conclusion follows:
Quote
Except the chant of the celebrant and the sacred ministers at the altar, which must always be sung in plainchant without any accompaniment, the rest of the liturgical singing belongs properly to the choir of clerics ...It follows from the same principle that the singers in church have a real liturgical office, and that women therefore, being incapable of such an office, cannot be admitted to the choir (§§12, 13).
[Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]

PART II.  Does this mean that women should not sing in church at all?
 

 The fact that women cannot perform the liturgical office of singing does not mean that they should not sing in church at all. To the contrary, they should participate in the congregational singing. That such congregational singing is indeed the mind of the Church is indicated by Pope Pius XI in his Apostolic Constitution of Dec. 20, 1928, on the Liturgy, Gregorian Chant and Sacred Music:
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In order that the faithful may more actively participate in divine worship, let them be made once more to sing the Gregorian Chant, so far as it belongs to them to take part in it. It is most important that when the faithful assist at the sacred ceremonies... they should not be merely detached and silent spectators, but, filled with a deep sense of the beauty of the liturgy, they should sing alternately with the clergy or the choir, as it is prescribed (§IX).
There are some exceptions to the rule forbidding women from singing in choirs. One such exception is religious women in their own community. Canon Law permits them to sing the chants of Mass, if permitted by their constitutions, but providing that they are in a place where they cannot be seen by the faithful (1917 Code of Canon Law, canon 1264), since they are not a choir in the liturgical sense.
Another exceptional case (and it is important that it remains exceptional) is when there is a dearth of male singers, and when it is necessary for the solemnity of the service that men and women join in the singing. (Predmore, Rev. George, Sacred Music and the Catholic Church, 1936, p.117). However,
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...we are to make every possible and fair effort to introduce either congregational singing of the liturgy, or to have male choirs. But the service is not to be made unbecoming, distracting, or ridiculous by literal adherence to the law, where the conditions really hinder its decorous observance (ibid. p.118). 
[Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]

Pope Pius XII, Musicæ Sacræ (1955):
Quote
74. Where it is impossible to have schools of singers or where there are not enough choir boys, it is allowed that "a group of men and women or girls, located in a place outside the sanctuary set apart for the exclusive use of this group, can sing the liturgical texts at Solemn Mass, as long as the men are completely separated from the women and girls and everything unbecoming is avoided. The Ordinary is bound in conscience in this matter."[Decrees of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, No's. 3964, 4201, 4231.]
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 11:16:19 PM by Geremia »
 
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