Author Topic: Mixed choirs  (Read 7786 times)

Offline Graham

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2017, 06:14:47 PM »
I could be completely wrong here (because I'll admit I don't know anything about it), but I'm under the impression that women are only forbidden from singing the propers and the versicles (because the propers and the versicles are priestly, thus on a higher level liturgically and reserved for the schola). But the hymns and the responses are to be sung by the congregation, and the women are part of the congregation, so I don't see why it's not ok?

That's all a given.
 

Offline Julian

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2017, 07:08:56 PM »
I could be completely wrong here (because I'll admit I don't know anything about it), but I'm under the impression that women are only forbidden from singing the propers and the versicles (because the propers and the versicles are priestly, thus on a higher level liturgically and reserved for the schola). But the hymns and the responses are to be sung by the congregation, and the women are part of the congregation, so I don't see why it's not ok?

edit - I'm also under the impression that women are allowed to sing even the propers when the occasion calls for it. I was once at a SSPX Mass and the nuns sang the propers and I think the versicles (not sure why... I guess the schola couldn't do it that day for some reason). I asked a priest about it afterwards, and (if I understood him correctly) he told me that the reason that the nuns were allowed to do that is because the singing isn't strictly a "liturgical" function so it's not forbidden. (He did say that the nuns would not have been allowed to serve the Mass as servers, since hat is strictly liturgical and is forbidden.)

In practice, women are permitted anyway in traditional Latin Masses to sing the propers with the men. This is sadly the reality of the slide that happens once you allow a "loophole" in. The "loophole mentality" has done much damage to so many souls in the Church. One thinks of the "loophole" of Paul VI "allowing" communion in the hand as an indult somewhere in America, then suddenly it has become an almost universal practice, because "it's allowed". Very little thought at all as to the theology of what is being done. Same thing with mixed choirs. It "was allowed", therefore pretty much every choir is a mixed choir.

Nuns were, as far as I know, always given a special dispensation to sing in their convents as part of their monastic duty. Nevertheless female choirs are not mixed choirs and were only permitted in convents, not main parish churches.

Congregational singing is a separate issue, although linked in some ways. I am not against it completely but believe it has led in some way to mixed choirs. It was Pius X himself who re-encouraged congregational singing in the same motu propio. The reason Pius X re-permitted congregational singing was because there is no doubt that it was present in the Early Church and his encouragement of this was based in part on a desire to return to an ancient practice that bore fruit at that time. Perhaps it was also to encourage the traditional and elegant simplicity of Gregorian Chant amongst the people at a time when opera-style complex polyphonies were beginning to dominate in Italian Churches.

However congregational singing in the Early Church was stopped at the Council of Laodicea in the 4th century and was not officially re-permitted until Pope St Pius X re-encouraged it again in the 20th century. The main problem then, as is now, was that it only takes one person in the congregation singing out of tune to distort the chant into a cacophany (this happens regularly even now, particularly at requiems, less often with sporadically used mass settings during the week). To be honest, many people who go to Church just want to be left to pray in peace and not feel forced to sing, one of the benefits of the Low Mass. People also feel discouraged from joining the choir because they can sing from the pew. The world-class choirs that used to be common in many Churches become all the more difficult with these sorts of things. And, on top of all this, females then think, "I can sing from the pew, why can't I sing in the choir?"

I think if Pius X saw that congregational singing might have contributed to mixed choirs, he would have stopped congregational singing, not permitted mixed choirs. He strictly forbade mixed choirs, but only said regarding congregational singing "special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people".

The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1908 speaks of there existing what the writers describe as a "present lamentable silence of our congregations", four years after Pius X's motu proprio. If only they had the benefit of hindsight and could see "full participation" in the NO, perhaps they might truly know what was lamentable.

Link here for more info: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04241a.htm

It bruises my heart in many ways to almost assume an authority I don't even have in speaking about these issues in such a manner that few others might. Many months have been spent thinking about this. But this is all worth it, to labour for what will save the most souls in Our Lord's Church, and to go back to tradition to see how the Saints did things right. Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 07:14:43 PM by Julian »
 
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Offline Graham

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2017, 07:20:39 PM »
The distinction between congregational singing of ordinaries and hymns and a choir exercising a liturgical function is abundantly clear. Not every slippery slope argument is a fallacy, but that one is.
 
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2017, 07:28:22 PM »
The distinction between congregational singing of ordinaries and hymns and a choir exercising a liturgical function is abundantly clear. Not every slippery slope argument is a fallacy, but that one is.

OP is full of half-baked opinion being passed off as truth, fact, or liturgical law/custom.
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

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Offline Julian

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2017, 07:34:52 PM »
The distinction between congregational singing of ordinaries and hymns and a choir exercising a liturgical function is abundantly clear. Not every slippery slope argument is a fallacy, but that one is.

I would respond that both are singing in churches at Mass. Many people would think that the only reason the congregation don't sing the propers is because it's slightly too complicated for them, not for any liturgical reason. Though congregational singing of even the propers happens, particularly at requiems. You'll find lots know how to sing the Introit Requiem Aeternam, as well as the Sequence Dies Irae, both propers. The distinctions then become completely blurred in the minds of the congregation and the mediocrity of choirs at the TLM is allowed to carry on.

Yes, it does cause some discomfort for me to say these things and perhaps for you too to listen to them. But who is there to say these things and ask these questions if I do not do so? This is ultimately what comes to my mind. When I think of all the saints nurtured through the traditional practice on this issue, both males and females, that causes me great comfort.
 

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2017, 07:39:05 PM »
But who is there to say these things and ask these questions if I do not do so?

:lol:
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

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Offline Graham

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2017, 07:46:31 PM »
The distinction between congregational singing of ordinaries and hymns and a choir exercising a liturgical function is abundantly clear. Not every slippery slope argument is a fallacy, but that one is.

OP is full of half-baked opinion being passed off as truth, fact, or liturgical law/custom.

I think he's got a lot of it down cold, tbf, but yes he is turning out to be one of these fellows who doesn't know where to draw the line.
 

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2017, 07:49:10 PM »
I think he's got a lot of it down cold, tbf, but yes he is turning out to be one of these fellows who doesn't know where to draw the line.

I mean, I agree, choirs ought to be male-only.

But his reasoning his just...   off the walls.
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

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Offline BumphreyHogart

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2017, 07:52:57 PM »
The distinction between congregational singing of ordinaries and hymns and a choir exercising a liturgical function is abundantly clear. Not every slippery slope argument is a fallacy, but that one is.

I would respond that both are singing in churches at Mass. Many people would think that the only reason the congregation don't sing the propers is because it's slightly too complicated for them, not for any liturgical reason. Though congregational singing of even the propers happens, particularly at requiems. You'll find lots know how to sing the Introit Requiem Aeternam, as well as the Sequence Dies Irae, both propers. The distinctions then become completely blurred in the minds of the congregation and the mediocrity of choirs at the TLM is allowed to carry on.

Yes, it does cause some discomfort for me to say these things and perhaps for you too to listen to them. But who is there to say these things and ask these questions if I do not do so? This is ultimately what comes to my mind. When I think of all the saints nurtured through the traditional practice on this issue, both males and females, that causes me great comfort.


Julian, your "Catholic sense" is quite correct in being concerned about this!

The choir is a "liturgical" function, and should be all males, particularly boys. Females are allowed (by St. Pius X as well) but only by a temporary tolerance since this function is not in view of the congregation....AND only in case there is not enough males to be in the choir. A "temporary tolerance" entails that the WHOLE congregation of parishioners knows that what is being done is TEMPORARY and that everyone should be working to stop it and get it RIGHT... as soon as possible!

Today, they are allowing it everywhere casually, and the congregation of parishioners thinks it is normal....this is an abuse, and it's preventing male vocations to the priesthood and brotherhood. It is a serious subject.
 

Offline Julian

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2017, 07:57:27 PM »
But who is there to say these things and ask these questions if I do not do so?

:lol:

God bless you too friend. Just trying to help souls in this very very short life. I'm perfectly ready to overlook the sadly condescending attitude you've had towards me, unlike everyone else, and forgive you for it. It's not very welcoming, I have to say. You could have just said you disagreed with me and explained why.

Well it seems I may be getting the cold shoulder even amongst fellow traditional Catholics. What was considered liturgically excellent in 1900 is something that seems to be mocked today, even amongst traditional Catholics. I pray you think about it. It took many months for me to reach these conclusions about things.

I always assumed mixed choirs were the norm of the Church until I heard of Pius X's motu proprio 8 months ago. Will probably go to bed soon. God bless.
 

Offline BumphreyHogart

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2017, 08:00:27 PM »
But who is there to say these things and ask these questions if I do not do so?

:lol:

God bless you too friend. Just trying to help souls in this very very short life. I'm perfectly ready to overlook the sadly condescending attitude you've had towards me, unlike everyone else, and forgive you for it. It's not very welcoming, I have to say. You could have just said you disagreed with me and explained why.

Well it seems I may be getting the cold shoulder even amongst fellow traditional Catholics. What was considered liturgically excellent in 1900 is something that seems to be mocked today, even amongst traditional Catholics. I pray you think about it. It took many months for me to reach these conclusions about things.

I always assumed mixed choirs were the norm of the Church until I heard of Pius X's motu proprio 8 months ago. Will probably go to bed soon. God bless.

Julian, please read my last post.
 

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2017, 08:02:32 PM »
The choir is a "liturgical" function, and should be all males, particularly boys.

[Citation Needed]
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.
 

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2017, 08:04:30 PM »
Well it seems I may be getting the cold shoulder even amongst fellow traditional Catholics. What was considered liturgically excellent in 1900 is something that seems to be mocked today, even amongst traditional Catholics.

Posting activity goes up and down.  You can see such in the stats feature of this forum.  That people don't instantly post to your thread shouldn't be taken as a personal affront (or as a lack of interest by the forum). 

Who is mocking an all-male choir?  I'm just mocking your terrible reasoning and some of your conclusions. 
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.
 

Online Maximilian

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2017, 08:13:47 PM »
I think he's got a lot of it down cold, tbf, but yes he is turning out to be one of these fellows who doesn't know where to draw the line.

I mean, I agree, choirs ought to be male-only.

Right, you've always been on the right side of this argument, since we have often agreed in the past on this question. So I'm surprised that you have this random-seeming, rather violent animosity towards this particular poster.


But his reasoning his just...   off the walls.

Since we agree on the basic question, I really don't see anything particularly bizarre about the line of reasoning that he proposed.
 

Offline BumphreyHogart

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Re: Mixed choirs
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2017, 08:14:46 PM »
The choir is a "liturgical" function, and should be all males, particularly boys.

[Citation Needed]

Read the document by St. Pius X, and you will see what I am saying.