Author Topic: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"  (Read 18184 times)

Offline LouisIX

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Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« on: April 05, 2016, 02:50:54 PM »
This article is a few years old but it perfectly sums up the political situation in the West.

"...in any dispute between a liberal and a liberal, the liberal will win every time."

https://ethikapolitika.org/2013/06/24/radical-traditionalists-the-fall-of-triumph-magazine/
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 02:53:09 PM by LouisIX »
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2016, 03:06:55 PM »
What is political traditionalism?

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Offline Lynne

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Re: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2016, 03:09:23 PM »
Darn!!! This sounds like a really good book, Mark D. Popowski’s The Rise and Fall of Triumph: The History of a Radical Roman Catholic Magazine.

The hardcover is $80 and the Kindle version is $76!!!!!

Nice ripoff.
In conclusion, I can leave you with no better advice than that given after every sermon by Msgr Vincent Giammarino, who was pastor of St Michael’s Church in Atlantic City in the 1950s:

    “My dear good people: Do what you have to do, When you’re supposed to do it, The best way you can do it,   For the Love of God. Amen.”
 

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2016, 03:11:13 PM »
Make your library get it?  Lolol

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Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

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Offline Lynne

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Re: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2016, 03:14:34 PM »
Make your library get it?  Lolol

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I like to own books but yes, that's an option.
In conclusion, I can leave you with no better advice than that given after every sermon by Msgr Vincent Giammarino, who was pastor of St Michael’s Church in Atlantic City in the 1950s:

    “My dear good people: Do what you have to do, When you’re supposed to do it, The best way you can do it,   For the Love of God. Amen.”
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2016, 03:54:24 PM »
Darn!!! This sounds like a really good book, Mark D. Popowski’s The Rise and Fall of Triumph: The History of a Radical Roman Catholic Magazine.

The hardcover is $80 and the Kindle version is $76!!!!!

Nice ripoff.

Google Books has it online but there may be some pages omitted.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=c5-TewmRvzsC&pg=PP2&lpg=PP2&dq=The+Rise+and+Fall+of+Triumph:+The+History+of+a+Radical+Roman+Catholic+Magazine&source=bl&ots=l0qf1H5TOc&sig=cAdsfMEXrGLVAaeg-Bq25Et6zqo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA58ronvjLAhXikoMKHWhKC3QQ6AEIJjAD#v=onepage&q=The%20Rise%20and%20Fall%20of%20Triumph%3A%20The%20History%20of%20a%20Radical%20Roman%20Catholic%20Magazine&f=false

This pdf is not exactly the same but some of the chapters are titled the same.
ROMAN CATHOLIC CRUSADING IN TEN YEARS OF TRIUMPH, 1966-1976:
A HISTORY OF A LAY-DIRECTED, RADICAL CATHOLIC JOURNAL
By MARK DAVID POPOWSKI
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/etd/Popowski_okstate_0664D_10014.pdf

Or you can get a hard copy of The Best of Triumph for $20
http://www.amazon.com/The-Best-Triumph-Christendom-Press/dp/0931888727 
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Offline LouisIX

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Re: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2016, 04:13:08 PM »
What is political traditionalism?

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Broadly speaking, it's simply an espousal of traditional political principles rather than the espousal of relatively modern, liberal political principles. As the article suggests, the Western left and right are two different flavors of liberalism.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
 

Offline LouisIX

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Re: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2016, 04:14:53 PM »
There is also a $20 "Best of Triumph" available on Amazon. I purchased it recently but have not received it. If I like that, I will spring for the Popowski's book.

But the most important aspect of this article is its treatment of Triumph's general political relation to "conservatism" and the GOP. Many here do not understand how a Catholic could remain political but reject the Republican Party. This is the blueprint.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
 
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2016, 04:28:12 PM »
What is political traditionalism?

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Broadly speaking, it's simply an espousal of traditional political principles rather than the espousal of relatively modern, liberal political principles. As the article suggests, the Western left and right are two different flavors of liberalism.

But what are traditional political principles?  Or, do you have a link for me to figure this out?  :lol: 

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Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.
 
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2016, 04:49:36 PM »
Darn!!! This sounds like a really good book, Mark D. Popowski’s The Rise and Fall of Triumph: The History of a Radical Roman Catholic Magazine.

The hardcover is $80 and the Kindle version is $76!!!!!

Nice ripoff.

Google Books has it online but there may be some pages omitted.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=c5-TewmRvzsC&pg=PP2&lpg=PP2&dq=The+Rise+and+Fall+of+Triumph:+The+History+of+a+Radical+Roman+Catholic+Magazine&source=bl&ots=l0qf1H5TOc&sig=cAdsfMEXrGLVAaeg-Bq25Et6zqo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA58ronvjLAhXikoMKHWhKC3QQ6AEIJjAD#v=onepage&q=The%20Rise%20and%20Fall%20of%20Triumph%3A%20The%20History%20of%20a%20Radical%20Roman%20Catholic%20Magazine&f=false

This pdf is not exactly the same but some of the chapters are titled the same.
ROMAN CATHOLIC CRUSADING IN TEN YEARS OF TRIUMPH, 1966-1976:
A HISTORY OF A LAY-DIRECTED, RADICAL CATHOLIC JOURNAL
By MARK DAVID POPOWSKI
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/etd/Popowski_okstate_0664D_10014.pdf

Or you can get a hard copy of The Best of Triumph for $20
http://www.amazon.com/The-Best-Triumph-Christendom-Press/dp/0931888727

Thank you sir!

I knew that Amazon frequently did that, over-price a book which is actually sold at another website for much cheaper. I just didn't take the time to look for it.

 :toth:
In conclusion, I can leave you with no better advice than that given after every sermon by Msgr Vincent Giammarino, who was pastor of St Michael’s Church in Atlantic City in the 1950s:

    “My dear good people: Do what you have to do, When you’re supposed to do it, The best way you can do it,   For the Love of God. Amen.”
 

Offline Aquila

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Re: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2016, 06:59:44 PM »
Thank you for the article LouisIX. I'd heard of Wilhelmsen before, and was vaguely aware of Triumph. I'll have to do more digging. I consider myself a political traditionalist, mostly because I've come to the conclusion that "the people" are utterly incapable of effectively implementing democracy due to stupidity, greed, and ignorance (witness pretty much any political movement, whether it's the alt-right, the Sanders fans, or the Trump-bots. Morons, all of them). However it's been hard for me to find it articulated in a consistent ideological vision. Are there any books you might recommend, or is there some kind of manifesto of political traditionalism? Popowski's book sounds good, but I'd like to find something that's a bit more ideological.
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Offline Larry

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Re: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2016, 03:22:32 PM »
Darn!!! This sounds like a really good book, Mark D. Popowski’s The Rise and Fall of Triumph: The History of a Radical Roman Catholic Magazine.

The hardcover is $80 and the Kindle version is $76!!!!!

Nice ripoff.

A friend of mine let me borrow his copy. It's an excellent book, but it's not worth 80 bucks.
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Offline LouisIX

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Re: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2016, 03:49:47 PM »
Thank you for the article LouisIX. I'd heard of Wilhelmsen before, and was vaguely aware of Triumph. I'll have to do more digging. I consider myself a political traditionalist, mostly because I've come to the conclusion that "the people" are utterly incapable of effectively implementing democracy due to stupidity, greed, and ignorance (witness pretty much any political movement, whether it's the alt-right, the Sanders fans, or the Trump-bots. Morons, all of them). However it's been hard for me to find it articulated in a consistent ideological vision. Are there any books you might recommend, or is there some kind of manifesto of political traditionalism? Popowski's book sounds good, but I'd like to find something that's a bit more ideological.

I would start with Plato and Aristotle. The Republic features a great critique of democracy and egalitarian forms of government, and Aristotle's thought on the common good, and virtue-based politics are sort of the basis for everything else that you might read.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
 
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Offline LouisIX

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Re: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2016, 04:05:46 PM »
What is political traditionalism?

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Broadly speaking, it's simply an espousal of traditional political principles rather than the espousal of relatively modern, liberal political principles. As the article suggests, the Western left and right are two different flavors of liberalism.

But what are traditional political principles?  Or, do you have a link for me to figure this out?  :lol: 

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I'm not sure that it can be summed up in one work or one site. Boiled down to its most common principles however, I would say that it is:

1) Virtue and truth based rather than autonomy or "freedom" based.

2) Accordingly, it recognizes that legislation must reflect the moral needs of the people; laws provide a medicinal and educational purpose. Laws do not exist simply to litigate power struggles between citizens or corporations.

3) The political and communal aspect of man is constitutive of his nature as a rational animal. Man is inherently political and social. As such, the society must be treated not just as a collection of individuals, but also as a living entity itself, a whole composed of smaller parts. The smallest and most fundamental cell of society is the family. The State is analogous to the family, and works in a similar manner as it is simply the family writ large.

4) Egalitarianism is rejected for hierarchical forms of governance. The desire and need for hierarchy is constitutive of the human experience. It also provides the basis for real subsidiarity, as all members within the society have their own place. Responsibilities are easily adjudicated, which is often not the case in democratic or representative forms of government.

5) Politics are teleological. The aim is the flourishing of the citizens. At the very least, this involves ordering the society toward the virtue of its citizens, toward their natural end. Ideally, it also aims to aid citizens toward the achieving of their supernatural end of beatitude. This is primarily the responsibility of the Church, but the State acts as Her handmaiden. Insofar as temporal affairs affect our spiritual life, the State is charged with aiding the Church in the attainment of that end.

6) A traditional society does not solve all moral issues via economics and the financial market. It recognizes that issues of social justice are not simply private. Since these injustices regard temporal goods and public suffering, the State has a very formal place in addressing and rectifying them.

7) There is a distinction but no functional divorce between the Church and the State. As many modern political commentators have written, it is impossible for the Church and the State to remain completely separated. The current state of the West is an example of how such a separation invariably leads to the subjection of the Church to the State. The traditional response is to restore the State's submission to the Church.

8 ) This leads to the rejection of the compartmentalization of faith. The State confesses a religion as true, rather than espousing a religious and philosophical plurality. A State or culture which does not share common values and beliefs cannot stand together.


I would say that this is a good start.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 06:39:19 PM by LouisIX »
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
 
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Offline Jacob

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Re: Political Traditionalism and Its Adversary, "Conservatism"
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2016, 06:06:55 PM »
For those interested in Popowski's book, but who are not willing to pay for it and are not quite motivated to get it through the library, I recommend reading the dissertation on which the book is based.

http://dc.library.okstate.edu/utils/getfile/collection/Dissert/id/73536/filename/74227.pdf

As noted above, the book is not very ideological.  Popowski is sympathetic to the Triumph endeavor, but his work is academic.

I have the other books mentioned above and a folder full of links.  If anyone is interested in learning more about Triumph, just ask.  I'll see what I can dig up or remember from my reading on the subject.
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