Author Topic: Can we pray to Elias?  (Read 2018 times)

Offline aquinas138

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Re: Can we pray to Elias?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2015, 12:44:52 PM »
The Byzantine Churches pray to St. Elias, and they do so liturgically:

Kontakion of the Holy and Glorious Prophet Elias (July 20):

O prophet who foresaw the mighty deeds of our God, the greatly renowned Elias, who with a word did set the clouds abounding with rain, to the lover of man intercede thou for us.
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Can we pray to Elias?
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2015, 04:21:38 PM »
In fact, is there any dogmatic definition of the empyrean Heaven?
I don't know about dogma, but it's based in Scripture.  St. Paul mentions that he knew somebody (probably himself) who was taken to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2).  The first heaven is the earth's atmosphere (and I think everything below the moon), and the second heaven is outer space, and the third heaven (where that man was taken) is the empyrean heaven.  The first and second heavens make up the firmament and are enclosed within a hollow sphere of water (Genesis 1:6-7, Psalms 148:4, Daniel 3:60).  Our universe is everything within that sphere, and the empyrean heaven is beyond it / "above" it.

Regarding Elias, the phrase used implies that he went to one of the heavens, not to the limbo of the fathers.
Quote from: 4 Kings 2:11
And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
See how it says "went up"?  That implies that he went up, into one of the heavens.  The limbo of the fathers (which is in hell) isn't up, it's down (cf. Genesis 37:35).  So he couldn't have gone there.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 04:23:14 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline jovan66102

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Re: Can we pray to Elias?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2015, 10:42:02 PM »
Elias has not yet died, is not yet in the highest heaven, and does not yet have the beatific vision.

OK, can you give me an example of any other person who does 'not yet have the beatific vision' who has been elevated to the Honours of the Altar by the entire Church, East and West, Catholic and Schismatic? And if he is not in Heaven, why is he included with the BVM, St Michael, Ss Peter and Paul and All the Saints in the Confiteor of the Discalced Carmelites?
Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

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Offline Daniel

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Re: Can we pray to Elias?
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2015, 04:20:25 AM »
OK, can you give me an example of any other person who does 'not yet have the beatific vision' who has been elevated to the Honours of the Altar by the entire Church, East and West, Catholic and Schismatic?
None that I can think of (unless Enoch has a feast day), but even so, isn't it possible that Elias is an exception?  Does the Church teach that all persons with feast days must have the beatific vision?
Quote
And if he is not in Heaven, why is he included with the BVM, St Michael, Ss Peter and Paul and All the Saints in the Confiteor of the Discalced Carmelites?
I have no idea, but my guess would be, maybe the Church allows him to be included in their confiteor because he's their patron saint and they piously believe that he can hear their prayers.
"So the souls in purgatory, being beloved by God, and confirmed in grace, have absolutely no impediment to prevent them from praying for us. Still the Church does not invoke them, or implore their intercession, because ordinarily they have no cognizance of our prayers. But we may piously believe that God makes our prayers known to them; and then they, full of charity as they are, most assuredly do not omit to pray for us.
Even if a person can hear your prayers, that doesn't necessarily mean that that person has the beatific vision, as it's possible for God to "make your prayers known to him" without granting him the beatific vision.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 04:23:05 AM by Daniel »
 

Offline aquinas138

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Re: Can we pray to Elias?
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2015, 07:48:21 AM »
Does the Church teach that all persons with feast days must have the beatific vision?

Isn't that what a universal feast is? Either a solemn canonization or universal liturgical commemoration from antiquity - isn't that recognition that the person enjoys the beatific vision? I can see in the case of beatification and a local cultus some reservation on that point, but not on a universal feast, especially one found in all the Rites.

Quote
I have no idea, but my guess would be, maybe the Church allows him to be included in their confiteor because he's their patron saint and they piously believe that he can hear their prayers.
"So the souls in purgatory, being beloved by God, and confirmed in grace, have absolutely no impediment to prevent them from praying for us. Still the Church does not invoke them, or implore their intercession, because ordinarily they have no cognizance of our prayers. But we may piously believe that God makes our prayers known to them; and then they, full of charity as they are, most assuredly do not omit to pray for us.
Even if a person can hear your prayers, that doesn't necessarily mean that that person has the beatific vision, as it's possible for God to "make your prayers known to him" without granting him the beatific vision.

But the Church is not in the habit of allowing "pious beliefs" to become part of the public liturgy of the Church. In the case of the few "devotional feasts," such as the Sacred Heart, these only gain feasts when they have been graced with some approved private revelation. If St. Elias were not in heaven (i.e., enjoying the beatific vision), it would be scandalous to pray to him in the liturgy.
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Can we pray to Elias?
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2015, 02:57:39 PM »
If St. Elias were not in heaven (i.e., enjoying the beatific vision), it would be scandalous to pray to him in the liturgy.
I had considered that, but just because he has a liturgical feast day, does that mean that the Church necessarily prays to him?  The NO collect doesn't say anything about asking for his intercession.
 

Offline aquinas138

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Re: Can we pray to Elias?
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2015, 05:33:41 PM »
If St. Elias were not in heaven (i.e., enjoying the beatific vision), it would be scandalous to pray to him in the liturgy.
I had considered that, but just because he has a liturgical feast day, does that mean that the Church necessarily prays to him?  The NO collect doesn't say anything about asking for his intercession.

Yes, but the kontakion I posted from the Byzantine rite explicitly does, and is used by all the Churches of the Byzantine Rite, Catholic and Orthodox. It does the same for other prophets and OT figures, as well.
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
 

Offline jovan66102

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Re: Can we pray to Elias?
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2015, 04:24:00 AM »
If St. Elias were not in heaven (i.e., enjoying the beatific vision), it would be scandalous to pray to him in the liturgy.
I had considered that, but just because he has a liturgical feast day, does that mean that the Church necessarily prays to him?  The NO collect doesn't say anything about asking for his intercession.

Whilst I'm not positive, I can't think of any collect for Mass in the Western Rites that prays to the Saint in question.
Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.) St Bernard of Clairvaux
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Can we pray to Elias?
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2015, 05:13:42 AM »
If St. Elias were not in heaven (i.e., enjoying the beatific vision), it would be scandalous to pray to him in the liturgy.
I had considered that, but just because he has a liturgical feast day, does that mean that the Church necessarily prays to him?  The NO collect doesn't say anything about asking for his intercession.

Whilst I'm not positive, I can't think of any collect for Mass in the Western Rites that prays to the Saint in question.
I'm not sure that any of them directly pray to the saint, but many are addressed to God asking for the prayers to be heard through the saint's intercession.  e.g.

Feast of St. Jane Frances Fremoit de Chantal:
"Almighty and merciful God, who didst endow blessed Jane Frances with wonderful strength of soul, and wast pleased to lead her, burning always with love of Thee, through every path of life along the way of perfection; and by means of her didst bless Thy Church with new and illustrious spiritual offspring: graciously regard her merits and her prayers, and grant that we, who fully conscious of our own weakness, pul all our trust in the strength which comes from Thee, may by the help of Thy grace, overcome all things which withstand us.  Through our Lord."

Feast of SS. Timothy, Hippolytus, and Symphorian:
"Deny us not, O merciful lord, Thy help: but listening to the prayers of Thy blessed martyrs Timothy, Hippolytus and Symphorian, stretch forth over us the right hand of Thy merciful forgiveness.  Through our Lord."

But it is true that not all the collects use this sort of language (e.g. the feast if St. Philip Benizi does not), and I have no idea how much of it was cut out of the Novus Ordo.
 

Offline jovan66102

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Re: Can we pray to Elias?
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2015, 05:17:02 PM »
Well, I wasn't sure I had the old rite collect for St Elias in English, but it turns out I do in the Manual published in 1960, just before the Council:

Grant, we beseech Thee, Almighty God, that we who believe that the blessed Elias Thy Prophet and our Father was wonderfully carried up in a fiery chariot, may by his intercession be raised to the desire of heavenly things and rejoice in the society of Thy saints. Through Christ Our Lord.
Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.) St Bernard of Clairvaux
https://musingsofanoldcurmudgeon.blogspot.com/
 
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Offline aquinas138

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Re: Can we pray to Elias?
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2015, 10:22:36 AM »
If St. Elias were not in heaven (i.e., enjoying the beatific vision), it would be scandalous to pray to him in the liturgy.
I had considered that, but just because he has a liturgical feast day, does that mean that the Church necessarily prays to him?  The NO collect doesn't say anything about asking for his intercession.

Whilst I'm not positive, I can't think of any collect for Mass in the Western Rites that prays to the Saint in question.

I'm confident there isn't one. The pure Roman rite addresses the collect to the Father "per Christum Dominum nostrum." A collect addressed to the Son, of which there are a few, is a sign either of Gallican influence or late composition.
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!