Author Topic: Attending Novus ordo under parental order  (Read 10192 times)

Offline Gardener

  • Drink the poison yourself.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 8498
  • Thanked: 5974 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2015, 02:34:29 AM »
its a traditional Catholic forum; your defending/promoting modernism. you also said two Roman Rites cannot exist at the same time, when your saying the NO is the legit Mass, so your denying the legitimacy of the True Mass too aren't you?

why not state your piece and clear it all up, if what we're all seeing is not correct?

Modernism according to you. The FSSP and its supporters certainly don't think the N.O. is "modernist". Unlike some others here it seems, I'm not scared of following the logic of an argument because I don't like the possible conclusions.

I would lean in the direction of the legitimacy of the N.O. because I think most of the evidence points in this direction. Does that mean the traditional Mass isn't legitimate? I don't know. Superseded, sure. That's the position that Rome took until it came up with a new theory of "ordinary" and "extraordinary" forms of the Latin Rite. Even then, I'm not sure if the current Pope holds to this latter theory.

I'm an FSSP supporter, and I certainly think the NO is modernist, leads to modernism, and has its roots in modernism. And I will not go to it. Presently, I have yet to find this to be an issue, as there are two Fraternity parishes within driving distance, as well as one SSPX parish, etc.

But, were I to ever find myself with the choice of the SSPX, SSPV, etc., or the NO? I'd go to the SSPX, SSPV, etc. I cannot in good conscience go to the NO.

But as you evince in your response, Rome was duplicitous... nay, deceitful. For the novel idea of Ordinary and Extraordinary forms, terms I detest, was fabricated wholesale. They intended to overthrow the timeless liturgy, and when this didn't work (since it wasn't from God), they had to start crab-walking and inventing things.

"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Providence is a present mystery by which our hope is confirmed and our faith solidified, if we give not into despair or disbelief.
 

Offline Arun

  • Господи Ісусе Христе Сыне Божїй помилѹй м
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6103
  • Thanked: 1378 times
  • Religion: Catholic Forever Forever Catholic
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2015, 03:25:12 AM »
its a traditional Catholic forum; your defending/promoting modernism. you also said two Roman Rites cannot exist at the same time, when your saying the NO is the legit Mass, so your denying the legitimacy of the True Mass too aren't you?

why not state your piece and clear it all up, if what we're all seeing is not correct?

Modernism according to you. The FSSP and its supporters certainly don't think the N.O. is "modernist". Unlike some others here it seems, I'm not scared of following the logic of an argument because I don't like the possible conclusions.

I would lean in the direction of the legitimacy of the N.O. because I think most of the evidence points in this direction. Does that mean the traditional Mass isn't legitimate? I don't know. Superseded, sure. That's the position that Rome took until it came up with a new theory of "ordinary" and "extraordinary" forms of the Latin Rite. Even then, I'm not sure if the current Pope holds to this latter theory.

Interesting response, my esteemed erudite trout but you see I've never met an FSSP priest or supporter who disagrees with this position, or supports yours. Perhaps you have; different waters, my friend. But what's more, Senor Haddock, is that there is no basis for your "leaning in the direction of the legitimacy of the NOtard Mess" other than codfishery and pigheaded willing blindness. Why languish in the turgid dark waters of those murky depths of modernism, my dear anchovy, when the only light you can see is emanating from the cuttlefish of innovation and diabolical deception? at best you arise from some of the pitch and murk to swim with the sharks of modernist conciliarism... you will be devoured; perhaps not today, perhaps not tomorrow... but next Wednesday maybe? who knows... the point is, skimming across the frothing, crested waves and basking in the luminous rays of Truth, the dolphins of Tradition have always been and always will be there to guide you to the shores.

Heed my words, Monsieur Perch, and take care.


SIT TIBI COPIA
SOT SAPIENCIA
FORMAQUE DETUR
INQUINAT OMNIA SOLA
SUPERBIA SICOMETETUR

Never lose Hope... Take a deep breath and have a beer.

Mother Aubert Pray For Us!



vsay ego sudba V rukah Gospodnih
 

Offline Kaesekopf

  • Enkindle in us the virtues of humility and patience So we too may obediently do your will faithfully.
  • Oberst
  • Major
  • *****
  • Posts: 20516
  • Thanked: 6165 times
    • Suscipe Domine
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2015, 04:16:37 PM »
why not state your piece and clear it all up, if what we're all seeing is not correct?

Because he thinks he's educated and thinks he has something worthwhile to say.

I realise you have never liked me, and you've held a grudge against me for some years now, but there comes a time where one has to just move on. I have never made cheap shots against you personally, so I'd ask if you could return the favour. Why not be more charitable?

A grudge?  Why would I hold a grudge against someone I've never met and haven't talked to in like 2+ years?  :lol:
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.
 

Offline Quaremerepulisti

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3879
  • Thanked: 1272 times
  • Religion: Catholic (Byzantine)
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2015, 08:57:25 PM »
What is the point of an apostate posting on a trad forum?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

(Translation: I don't have a good answer for his arguments.)

If you think that Paul VI was the Pope and that the Novus Ordo Missae is somehow intrinsically evil in any respect, then the logical thing to do is exactly what Suarez has done.  People who deny this are, as he has said, desperately searching for loopholes.  If the Church can't be trusted a priori, then what is its use?


 

Offline Rube

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 48 times
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2015, 09:03:50 PM »
If the Church can't be trusted a priori, then what is its use?

The answer is....the Church said we can discern if a pope becomes a manifest heretic and therefore automatically ceases to be pope, and we immediately act upon in.


Offline Bonaventure

  • Oberstleutnant
  • Hauptmann
  • *****
  • Posts: 9047
  • Thanked: 1638 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2015, 03:56:10 PM »
What is the point of an apostate posting on a trad forum?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

One ought to attempt to answer his questions, though. They are probably the root of his apostasy.
 
The following users thanked this post: Lydia Purpuraria

Offline Christopher McAvoy

  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 457
  • Thanked: 44 times
  • Traditio Legis (et Clavum)
  • Religion: 11th c. Orthodox Latin Catholic - a medieval relic aloof to 21st century trads
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2015, 02:20:43 AM »
Firstly, good parents want what is best for their children. Usually if children have legitimately sensible reasons for complaining about how the family worships God, they are taken into consideration.

Secondly, "to whom more is given, more is expected". It is not always easy for people to understand the damage that can be inflicted upon the faith by the new mass and it's ever accompanying new theology. The more that one has awareness of what is at stake, the more acceptance they have to avoid attending the new mass. This is essentially a process of conversion.

Thirdly, the question becomes one of whether or not there can be compromise. My own opinion is that to the extent one feels they have no mode of transportation or accessibility to a traditional mass, anglican-use mass or eastern divine liturgy, there can be some reason to accept the new mass as a temporary measure rather than nothing at all.

Generally speaking, for myself, if I attend the new mass, I usually avoid being part of it. I will walk in the beginning of it, remain in either the back or narthex, separate myself for the majority of it, and come up or enter the nave only during the eucharistic anaphora time. I do not generally receive the eucharist, but I suppose I could if in some remote scenario I was required to do so.

In my own experience, if I was presented with the option to choose between the two - I would rather attend a schismatic Orthodox Divine Liturgy than a New Mass in a Roman Catholic Church. As far as I am concerned they are both involved in schism in one way or another. One is a schism of hierachy and ecclesiological theology, the other is a schism with the authentic sacramental theology and God ordained symbolism that the faith in its authentic form offers. Thankfully I do not have to choose between those options.

There is a true value to making compromise when it comes to family and friends. It is impossible for me to not recommend making some level of compromise - at least temporarily - or on occasion - though not necessarily every Sunday.

Although we will leave our Fathers, mothers, friends to follow Christ, it is not easy. God must give us the strength to do this and even than, some level of compromise on rare occasion may still be necessary. You see there is an intimacy of a family sharing unity of faith that is difficult to change. It is difficult to not have mercy on those who have yet to understand the fullness of truth. To that extent, God is merciful on those lay people who participate in compromised protestant influenced liturgies out of ignorance or lack of option. If it is a sin to participate in them, it seems to me a sin which in the short term is venial and only more serious if practiced in the longterm for many years.

 



« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 02:27:52 AM by Christopher McAvoy »
 

Offline Quaremerepulisti

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3879
  • Thanked: 1272 times
  • Religion: Catholic (Byzantine)
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2015, 11:43:13 PM »
If the Church can't be trusted a priori, then what is its use?

The answer is....the Church said we can discern if a pope becomes a manifest heretic and therefore automatically ceases to be pope, and we immediately act upon in.

Oh, it has, really?  Where?  At best maybe some theologians have said this, but not "the Church".
 

Offline Rube

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 48 times
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2015, 07:05:55 PM »
If the Church can't be trusted a priori, then what is its use?
The answer is....the Church said we can discern if a pope becomes a manifest heretic and therefore automatically ceases to be pope, and we immediately act upon in.
Oh, it has, really? Where? At best maybe some theologians have said this, but not "the Church".

It's the default mentality and practice within the Church, and always has been. You need to find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary.


Offline Quaremerepulisti

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3879
  • Thanked: 1272 times
  • Religion: Catholic (Byzantine)
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2015, 01:53:03 PM »

It's the default mentality and practice within the Church, and always has been. You need to find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary.

John of St. Thomas.

Now, will you graciously concede defeat here?  Of course not.  You'll merely change the goalposts and either find some other criterion or else tell me why John of St. Thomas doesn't qualify as a "real" theologian.

 

Offline Rube

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 48 times
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2015, 02:33:30 PM »
It's the default mentality and practice within the Church, and always has been. You need to find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary.

John of St. Thomas.

Now, will you graciously concede defeat here? Of course not. You'll merely change the goalposts and either find some other criterion or else tell me why John of St. Thomas doesn't qualify as a "real" theologian.

You know very well yourself that one theologian doesn't make you right.

What did John of St. Thomas say?  Did he explicitly say that the average person could not personally conclude the man ceased to be pope?

Offline Gardener

  • Drink the poison yourself.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 8498
  • Thanked: 5974 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2015, 02:34:41 PM »
It's the default mentality and practice within the Church, and always has been. You need to find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary.

John of St. Thomas.

Now, will you graciously concede defeat here? Of course not. You'll merely change the goalposts and either find some other criterion or else tell me why John of St. Thomas doesn't qualify as a "real" theologian.

You know very well yourself that one theologian doesn't make you right.

What did John of St. Thomas say?  Did he explicitly say that the average person could not personally conclude the man ceased to be pope?

If one theologian doesn't make him right, then why did you tell him to find one?

"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Providence is a present mystery by which our hope is confirmed and our faith solidified, if we give not into despair or disbelief.
 

Offline Rube

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 48 times
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2015, 03:25:14 PM »
It's the default mentality and practice within the Church, and always has been. You need to find a theologian that explicitly says to the contrary.

John of St. Thomas.

Now, will you graciously concede defeat here? Of course not. You'll merely change the goalposts and either find some other criterion or else tell me why John of St. Thomas doesn't qualify as a "real" theologian.

You know very well yourself that one theologian doesn't make you right.

What did John of St. Thomas say?  Did he explicitly say that the average person could not personally conclude the man ceased to be pope?

If one theologian doesn't make him right, then why did you tell him to find one?

Because I don't think there is any, and to show that the burden of proof is in the other direction.

Offline Michael Wilson

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6917
  • Thanked: 4643 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2015, 07:32:13 PM »
Quarem stated:
Quote
...If the Church can't be trusted a priori, then what is its use?

Yes, this is where we all started; but somehow this trust was broken in a significant way that could not longer be justified according to our Catholic faith,  and here we are.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
The following users thanked this post: Non Nobis

Offline Quaremerepulisti

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3879
  • Thanked: 1272 times
  • Religion: Catholic (Byzantine)
Re: Attending Novus ordo under parental order
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2015, 09:46:12 PM »
You know very well yourself that one theologian doesn't make you right.

See?  I knew you'd move the goalposts.

Quote
What did John of St. Thomas say?  Did he explicitly say that the average person could not personally conclude the man ceased to be pope?

Yep. Suarez and Cajetan have said the same.  They say the man remains Pope until sentence is passed by the Church (e.g. Council of Cardinals).