Author Topic: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?  (Read 23771 times)

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2016, 02:50:36 PM »
We live in a world that constantly encourages wives to disrespect husbands.  A trad forum is one place where people should know better.

Agreed.
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Offline Ulrich Von Lichtenstein

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2016, 02:54:21 PM »

If there is nothing per se objectionable about where the husband wants to go to Mass or about the daughter's religious instruction, and the husband wants the wife to accompany the family to Mass there, then the wife's duty is to obey.

But there is something objectionable in this case: liturgical abuses and lack of reverence. In such a case, shouldn't the spiritual head put his wife's needs over his own likes?

Liturgical abuses don't, in themselves, make it objectionable to assist at Mass there.  They are the fault of those who commit them.  But the OP wasn't clear on this point so that's why I prefaced the sentence with "if".

And there are more aspects to consider than her needs and his likes, and she needs to respect and submit to his final decision.  He's likely worried, for instance, about his daughter's ability to receive First Holy Communion.  She can respectfully bring her concerns to his attention but she has to be willing to accept "no" for an answer (without attempting to manipulate him or be grossly disrespectful by serving everyone else a banquet and him a burger and fries.)

The banquet/burger comment was a joke.

And as for women influencing their men with their womenly wiles, son they have been doing it for thousands of years. Women have their ways! And yes I was joking about that too.

The only thing she can really do is pray, privately, about the matter and hope that her prayer is heard. Other than that she must do what her husband says, it's not her choice to make.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 02:56:00 PM by Ulrich Von Lichtenstein »
 

Offline christulsa

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2016, 03:52:15 PM »
Ultimately, the conclusion I've personally come to is that the New Mass, in its design and how it is said, is a departure from the Church's teachings/practices on the Mass, and therefore should be avoided to preserve one's faith.  That the traditional Mass is more than a preference, but an obligation.  If you yourself come to that conclusion, it would require patiently explaining the problem to your husband and why you in conscience must attend the TLM, as well as your children.  And at the same time keep peace in the family, but without compromising the Faith.

A critical study of the New Mass presented to Pope Paul VI by Cardinal's Ottaviani and Bacci (could be read in an hour):

http://www.fisheaters.com/ottavianiintervention.html



 

Offline erin is nice

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2016, 04:04:35 PM »
I would never take my kids to the NO if there was another alternative, no matter what anyone said. Their developing faith is more important than hubby's precious little feeeeelings.
 
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Offline Ulrich Von Lichtenstein

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2016, 04:12:45 PM »
I would never take my kids to the NO if there was another alternative, no matter what anyone said. Their developing faith is more important than hubby's precious little feeeeelings.

Mulieres viris suis subditae sint, sicut Domino: Quoniam vir caput est mulieris, sicut Christus caput est Ecclesiae: ipse, salvator corporis ejus. Sed sicut Ecclesia subjecta est Christo, ita et mulieres viris suis in omnibus.
 

Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2016, 04:50:12 PM »
I would never take my kids to the NO if there was another alternative, no matter what anyone said. Their developing faith is more important than hubby's precious little feeeeelings.

Your contempt for your husband shows that you are nowhere even close to being holy, no matter how much you flatter yourself that you attend the TLM, for you lack the first thing necessary.
 
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Offline christulsa

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2016, 04:52:48 PM »
I would never take my kids to the NO if there was another alternative, no matter what anyone said. Their developing faith is more important than hubby's precious little feeeeelings.

Mulieres viris suis subditae sint, sicut Domino: Quoniam vir caput est mulieris, sicut Christus caput est Ecclesiae: ipse, salvator corporis ejus. Sed sicut Ecclesia subjecta est Christo, ita et mulieres viris suis in omnibus.

Obedire oportet Deo magis quam hominibus.  (We must obey God rather than men).
 
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Offline Chestertonian

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2016, 04:59:30 PM »
what kind of person prefers the former to the latter?

I really do not like the implied insult to my husband in this and I doubt that alicewyf does either.  How would you like it if someone was making statements to your wife that insulted your taste and undermined your decisions?

Nobody here was questioning which form of Mass is better.  We really did not need a post which praises the TLM by putting down those who prefer the NO.

We live in a world that constantly encourages wives to disrespect husbands.  A trad forum is one place where people should know better.

St. Paul addressed women who were married to pagans, a more extreme difference than attending different forms of Mass.  Even in a case where the husbands' belief was completely wrong, wives were encouraged to obedience.

a christibwife married to a pagan would still not paaticipate in pagan ceremonies

she might obey her husband in other matters but not in a way that endangers her eternal salvation or undmines her ability to pass on the faith to the children

i believe castii connubii syates that a wife is not required to obey if it is contrary to right reason.  i think that choosing novud ordo parish life over a parish life based in the TLM would constitute as contrary to right reason..... that's my armchair analysis from a random guy on the internets....not a spiritual director or priest...

in most cases one obeys God through obeying legitimate authority but there are cases such as Archbishop Lefevre and st thomas more where faithfulness to God trumps faithfulness to a legitimaresuperior
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"
 
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Offline Ulrich Von Lichtenstein

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2016, 05:19:26 PM »
I would never take my kids to the NO if there was another alternative, no matter what anyone said. Their developing faith is more important than hubby's precious little feeeeelings.

Mulieres viris suis subditae sint, sicut Domino: Quoniam vir caput est mulieris, sicut Christus caput est Ecclesiae: ipse, salvator corporis ejus. Sed sicut Ecclesia subjecta est Christo, ita et mulieres viris suis in omnibus.

Obedire oportet Deo magis quam hominibus.  (We must obey God rather than men).

This is the first time I have heard a Catholic use this as an argument against the obedience due a husband from their wife.
 

Offline Bernadette

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2016, 05:24:53 PM »
I would never take my kids to the NO if there was another alternative, no matter what anyone said. Their developing faith is more important than hubby's precious little feeeeelings.


While I don't agree with Erin's diction, her quote does illustrate a point that is causing me confusion in all of this. The husband might actually be commanding something that is dangerous to the wife's and particularly the child's faith. How can the wife be obliged to obey such a command? Is the husband more responsible to God for his child's soul than the wife is?
 
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Offline erin is nice

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2016, 05:57:51 PM »
I would never take my kids to the NO if there was another alternative, no matter what anyone said. Their developing faith is more important than hubby's precious little feeeeelings.

Your contempt for your husband shows that you are nowhere even close to being holy, no matter how much you flatter yourself that you attend the TLM, for you lack the first thing necessary.


Hahahaha. I am nowhere close to being holy for many reasons, but this is not one of them. I wouldn't have married someone who insisted that I go to the NO  :shrug:
 

Offline christulsa

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2016, 06:45:17 PM »
I would never take my kids to the NO if there was another alternative, no matter what anyone said. Their developing faith is more important than hubby's precious little feeeeelings.

Mulieres viris suis subditae sint, sicut Domino: Quoniam vir caput est mulieris, sicut Christus caput est Ecclesiae: ipse, salvator corporis ejus. Sed sicut Ecclesia subjecta est Christo, ita et mulieres viris suis in omnibus.

Obedire oportet Deo magis quam hominibus.  (We must obey God rather than men).

This is the first time I have heard a Catholic use this as an argument against the obedience due a husband from their wife.

Well friend, we have different views of the Crisis in the Church.  In my view most if not all Novus Ordo Masses are dangerous to the soul, from the standpoint of Catholic Tradition.  I stand with Archbishop Lefebvre on this point. 

 
 

Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2016, 06:50:11 PM »
Ultimately, the conclusion I've personally come to is that the New Mass, in its design and how it is said, is a departure from the Church's teachings/practices on the Mass, and therefore should be avoided to preserve one's faith.  That the traditional Mass is more than a preference, but an obligation. 

But your opinion is much more dangerous to faith, at least to those think logically.  Those (the Pope for the Church at large and the Bishops in their respective dioceses) with the authority to make those decisions (about what constitutes a departure from the Church's teachings/practices) disagree with you, and you are bound to their decision.  In fact, the Church would have defected if the New Mass were intrinsically harmful to faith, which would mean there really is no reason to be Catholic in the first place.  The logical thing to do is to check out the nearest Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

Quote
If you yourself come to that conclusion, it would require patiently explaining the problem to your husband and why you in conscience must attend the TLM, as well as your children. 

But she doesn't have authority to take the children there over and above his wishes.
 
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Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2016, 06:54:48 PM »
While I don't agree with Erin's diction, her quote does illustrate a point that is causing me confusion in all of this. The husband might actually be commanding something that is dangerous to the wife's and particularly the child's faith. How can the wife be obliged to obey such a command? Is the husband more responsible to God for his child's soul than the wife is?

The husband is more responsible, as head of the household.

The wife should obey if there is only a remote danger.  If there is a proximate danger (e.g. the priest denies dogmas of Faith from the pulpit every Sunday) then she would be justified in refusing in going there and taking the children there (but this doesn't have to do with TLM vs. NO in itself).  I did not get the impression that there was a proximate danger from the OP, but again details of the situation were a bit scarce.
 
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Offline Ulrich Von Lichtenstein

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Re: What to do when one's spouse does not like the Tridentine Mass?
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2016, 07:06:00 PM »

Well friend, we have different views of the Crisis in the Church.  In my view most if not all Novus Ordo Masses are dangerous to the soul, from the standpoint of Catholic Tradition.  I stand with Archbishop Lefebvre on this point. 

 

Personally, I'd never attend a Novus Ordo Mass even if you paid me. But I owe no obedience to anybody who is requiring me to, also. I've never read anything from Archbishop LeFebvre in which he stated that there is no objective obedience due to a husband by his wife. And I have never seen a Catholic claim that Acts V:XXIX presents any suppression or denial of Ephesians V:XXII - XXIV in any way. Can you show some documented substantiation that this is, in fact, a Traditional Catholic interpretation of the comparison between those two scriptural quotes? I would be interested in taking a look.

The husband is more responsible, as head of the household.

It would appear christulsa does not agree on this point.