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The Church Courtyard => Catholic Liturgical Life => Topic started by: Ancilla Domini on February 24, 2014, 02:54:45 PM

Title: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on February 24, 2014, 02:54:45 PM
I have been invited to attend a Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Is there anything I should know, or be prepared for, in advance? Thanks!
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: drummerboy on February 24, 2014, 04:15:00 PM
Some friends of mine visited a nearby Eastern Rite monastery for Vespers.  I think the womenfolk just needed a veil (they're NO'ers so that was kind of novel to them), and of course no pants.  Please let's not start a women in pants debate... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on February 24, 2014, 06:26:41 PM
I don't wear pants, so no problem there.  :)

I assume a lace mantilla would look out of place. What kinds of head coverings are preferred? Scarves? I have lots of those.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: EastWest7 on February 24, 2014, 07:38:00 PM
Relative to women's head coverings, I think there is a fair amount of variance among Orthodox parishes, I've see women without head coverings, scarves, hats. I would expect you will have a positive experience, although in many Greek parishes they still use a fair amount of Greek during the liturgy...but you should be able to follow along by using the liturgy books found in the pews.   
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on February 24, 2014, 08:12:20 PM
Greek's not a problem, EastWest. On the contrary!  :)
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Landless Laborer on February 24, 2014, 08:35:35 PM
You know Greek?  Oh wow, now i'm really impressed.   :o


Since it's Greek, most women don't wear a head covering.  Rocor, they all wear scarves.  Pants are common for women in both.  The Greeks will have pews and kneelers...you won't have to stand like the Russians.

Here's something that will seem strange to you:   If someone is not disposed for communion, they don't get in line.  You'll see lots of people in line with their arms crossed upon the chest.  This doesn't mean they are going forward for a blessing, it's just an expression of unworthiness if not for divine grace.  If they line up, they want to receive.  Fwi, typically less than half of the people will receive communion on any given Sunday.   

Well if you're a half hour late, don't sweat it, that's usually when most of the Europeans show up.  :lol: 
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on February 24, 2014, 10:49:50 PM
You know Greek?  Oh wow, now i'm really impressed.   :o

Greek is impressive? Why is that?

Quote
The Greeks will have pews and kneelers...you won't have to stand like the Russians.

My Latin laziness will be glad.  :)

Quote
Here's something that will seem strange to you:   If someone is not disposed for communion, they don't get in line.  You'll see lots of people in line with their arms crossed upon the chest.  This doesn't mean they are going forward for a blessing, it's just an expression of unworthiness if not for divine grace.  If they line up, they want to receive.  Fwi, typically less than half of the people will receive communion on any given Sunday.

Yes, I just learned about that in Reborn Pure's video.  :)   

Quote
Well if you're a half hour late, don't sweat it, that's usually when most of the Europeans show up.  :lol: 

Of course!  :lol:

Though I plan to get there early, even before Orthros, since I don't want to miss a thing.  :)
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Landless Laborer on February 24, 2014, 11:05:45 PM
Greek is impressive? Why is that?
One more to your long list!  And it's hard, i hear. 
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on February 24, 2014, 11:40:48 PM
Greek is impressive? Why is that?
One more to your long list!  And it's hard, i hear.

Ah, I see...  :)
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Landless Laborer on February 25, 2014, 02:54:17 PM
You're modest, Ancilla....(and i'm not implying it's the false type.)   I think i had the gift for memorization when i was younger, but it faded with age.  Now i can't recall strings of syllables, of sounds, just on their own merit.  Children have an uncanny knack for this, and some people retain it well into middle age, even.  So one has to fortify new words with associations of sound and meaning.  I'm getting better and better at this, and sometimes i even think i'm starting to just be able to recall sounds by themselves again.   :)  This is the best thing i've found....to renew the mind, to stay young, as Christ wants us to be. 
When did you study Greek?  Was it one of the earlier languages you learned, or later? 

By the way, i love the Greek organ.  I think it adds a wonderful dimension to byzantine hymns.  Hope they have one at the parish you visit.  We'll expect a full report.   ;D
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on February 25, 2014, 03:48:41 PM
You're modest, Ancilla....(and i'm not implying it's the false type.)

I'm afraid you think too highly of me, Landless. But thank you.  :)

 
Quote
When did you study Greek?  Was it one of the earlier languages you learned, or later?

I had some exposure to it in childhood, and always meant to learn it, but I didn't get around to studying it seriously until recently.   


Quote
By the way, i love the Greek organ.  I think it adds a wonderful dimension to byzantine hymns. Hope they have one at the parish you visit. 

Oh... I'm not familiar. I tend to prefer a capella. But this could change my mind...  :)


Quote
We'll expect a full report.   ;D

Of course. Though I don't actually even know when I'm going yet. 
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on February 25, 2014, 03:58:36 PM
Just to clarify: I've lived most of my life in a very multicultural environment, and I've had "some exposure" to dozens of different languages. All that really means, for me, is that I can order food, I can flirt, and I can curse. It's a long way from fluency, but I figure I've got the essentials covered!  :lol: 
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Landless Laborer on February 25, 2014, 04:13:05 PM
Just to clarify: I've lived most of my life in a very multicultural environment, and I've had "some exposure" to dozens of different languages. All that really means, for me, is that I can order food, I can flirt, and I can curse. It's a long way from fluency, but I figure I've got the essentials covered!  :lol:
Haha, those are the essentials!  Pay particular attention to the Cherubic Hymn, sung / played right after the sermon and during the Great Entrance.  I think there are several versions, but the one we use is.....wow.  I don't know how to describe it.  Somehow it reminds me of Carl Orff's "O Fortuna"....except that it is byzantine.  It has that kind of foreboding power and majesty, and it needs the organ to fully express this.   
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on February 25, 2014, 08:11:49 PM
Pay particular attention to the Cherubic Hymn, sung / played right after the sermon and during the Great Entrance.  I think there are several versions, but the one we use is.....wow.  I don't know how to describe it.  Somehow it reminds me of Carl Orff's "O Fortuna"....except that it is byzantine.  It has that kind of foreboding power and majesty, and it needs the organ to fully express this.

Looking forward to it!  :)
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: kayla_veronica on February 27, 2014, 08:58:55 AM
Communicatio in sacris is a grave sin.  Please cancel your plans!

It's a little shocking no one has pointed out the obvious.  Don't go!  You're putting your soul in peril.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Petrie on February 27, 2014, 09:09:45 AM
Communicatio in sacris is a grave sin.  Please cancel your plans!

It's a little shocking no one has pointed out the obvious.  Don't go!  You're putting your soul in peril.

Thank you.  I was beginning to wonder what was going on here.  This is a non-Catholic service.  As Catholics, we are forbidden to go (well at least Catholic teaching pre-VII taught this).
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Roland Deschain2 on February 27, 2014, 09:57:27 AM
Communicatio in sacris is a grave sin.  Please cancel your plans!

It's a little shocking no one has pointed out the obvious.  Don't go!  You're putting your soul in peril.

I agree.

Ancilla-

I don't know where you are at personally in your spiritual life or whether you have left the Church, are considering Orthodoxy or something else. Please keep in mind that Kayla is correct. You cannot take active participation in non Catholic or schismatic worship.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Larry on February 27, 2014, 11:24:01 AM
Ancilla says she was invited. Maybe a wedding or something like that? I didn't get the impression from her post that she's leaving the Church, she just wanted to know the proper etiquette when attending a Liturgy.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on February 27, 2014, 01:23:50 PM
Ancilla says she was invited. Maybe a wedding or something like that? I didn't get the impression from her post that she's leaving the Church, she just wanted to know the proper etiquette when attending a Liturgy.

Thank you, Larry.  :)
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Larry on February 27, 2014, 02:21:42 PM
Ancilla says she was invited. Maybe a wedding or something like that? I didn't get the impression from her post that she's leaving the Church, she just wanted to know the proper etiquette when attending a Liturgy.

Thank you, Larry.  :)


You're welcome.  :toth:
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Landless Laborer on February 27, 2014, 03:32:56 PM
And don't let those Orthoducks get their hooks in you.  Stay away from the pastries...
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Roland Deschain2 on February 27, 2014, 03:35:49 PM
And don't let those Orthoducks get their hooks in you.  Stay away from the pastries...

It's a Greek parish so if they bring out the Baklava, you're toast......you'll never leave.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on February 27, 2014, 03:57:34 PM
And don't let those Orthoducks get their hooks in you.  Stay away from the pastries...

What did ya'll think I was going for?  :lol:


It's a Greek parish so if they bring out the Baklava, you're toast......you'll never leave.

So I should bring my big purse...  :tongue:
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on February 27, 2014, 04:14:23 PM
See, this is the kind of practical advice I was looking for.  :)
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Patriarch on February 27, 2014, 04:40:54 PM
Communicatio in sacris is a grave sin.  Please cancel your plans!

It's a little shocking no one has pointed out the obvious.  Don't go!  You're putting your soul in peril.
Seconded. :(
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: kayla_veronica on February 27, 2014, 07:31:28 PM
Ancilla says she was invited. Maybe a wedding or something like that? I didn't get the impression from her post that she's leaving the Church, she just wanted to know the proper etiquette when attending a Liturgy.

Considering that she mentioned arriving early for Orthros which is only prayed on Sunday mornings and First Class feasts and that she doesn't know when she'll be going (Wedding invitation without a date?) it seemed pretty clear that this was not the case.

In the off-chance that it's a Schismatic custom to invite people to weddings that don't have a date and are preceded by the Divine Office, proper "etiquette" is passive attendance, because it's the only way that a person can attend without mortally sinning against the First Commandment, and even then a person can only justify attendance if there is a serious civic duty and no cause of scandal or perversion.  Passive attendance is being present without engaging in a positive act of worship. 
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Larry on February 27, 2014, 07:43:24 PM
Jesus Christ will be present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity on the altar of the Church that she'll be attending. It's not like she's going to a Pentecostalist service headed by Pope Francis(oops, I meant to say Benny Hinn). In the past, Catholics have worshiped at Orthodox Churches, and Orthodox clergy and priests collaborated together in parish missions in parts of Eastern Europe where the schism between the two Churches wasn't so clearly defined(and when I say the past, I don't mean 1973. I'm talking about the Counter Reformation period, when Catholics were not too keen about ecumenical dialogue).
I think it's permissible to show proper respect at an Orthodox service, but we shouldn't receive Communion from them unless it's an emergency. But I don't see a problem with going to their Divine Liturgy. Just my own opinion, which I'm sure is about to be eviscerated.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Roland Deschain2 on February 27, 2014, 07:56:29 PM
Jesus Christ will be present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity on the altar of the Church that she'll be attending. It's not like she's going to a Pentecostalist service headed by Pope Francis(oops, I meant to say Benny Hinn). In the past, Catholics have worshiped at Orthodox Churches, and Orthodox clergy and priests collaborated together in parish missions in parts of Eastern Europe where the schism between the two Churches wasn't so clearly defined(and when I say the past, I don't mean 1973. I'm talking about the Counter Reformation period, when Catholics were not too keen about ecumenical dialogue).
I think it's permissible to show proper respect at an Orthodox service, but we shouldn't receive Communion from them unless it's an emergency. But I don't see a problem with going to their Divine Liturgy. Just my own opinion, which I'm sure is about to be eviscerated.

Attending is one thing, taking active participation is forbidden.

One should not even attend unless for some very good reason.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on February 27, 2014, 09:18:03 PM
Interesting that no one pretending to be so concerned bothered to ask me why I'm going or what I'll be doing there. No, it's much better to assume the worst and affect righteous indignation. I would have happily answered any questions, but I'm not going to be put on the defensive by people making assumptions. There are circumstances under which it is perfectly licit to attend an Orthodox liturgy. But I feel no obligation to justify myself to anyone who cannot be bothered to ask a civil question.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Bonaventure on February 27, 2014, 09:35:50 PM
I didn't see a mention of active participation, or an intention to receive communion. As such, I think any fears of communicatio in sacris cum acatholicis misguided, and any warnings unwarranted.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Roland Deschain2 on February 27, 2014, 11:47:20 PM
Interesting that no one pretending to be so concerned bothered to ask me why I'm going or what I'll be doing there. No, it's much better to assume the worst and affect righteous indignation. I would have happily answered any questions, but I'm not going to be put on the defensive by people making assumptions. There are circumstances under which it is perfectly licit to attend an Orthodox liturgy. But I feel no obligation to justify myself to anyone who cannot be bothered to ask a civil question.

I dont see any assumptions being made. further, it is not my business to ask you why you are going. I only felt obligated to state some basic Catholic principles.

you appear to be the one making assumptions.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Roland Deschain2 on February 27, 2014, 11:49:20 PM
I didn't see a mention of active participation, or an intention to receive communion. As such, I think any fears of communicatio in sacris cum acatholicis misguided, and any warnings unwarranted.

you find a warning against going to a schismatic liturgy to be misguided and unwarranted?

I'm quite surprised hearing that from you.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Bonaventure on February 27, 2014, 11:58:38 PM
She said she was invited to go, and mentions nothing about active participation. Nor he she made threads like "what if the Orthodox are right." Since I see no evidence to warrant a warning, I think doing so presumes to much. A Catholic can observe these rites if they choose to.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on February 28, 2014, 12:23:32 AM
.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Landless Laborer on February 28, 2014, 12:25:44 AM
Interesting that no one pretending to be so concerned bothered to ask me why I'm going or what I'll be doing there. No, it's much better to assume the worst and affect righteous indignation. I would have happily answered any questions, but I'm not going to be put on the defensive by people making assumptions. There are circumstances under which it is perfectly licit to attend an Orthodox liturgy. But I feel no obligation to justify myself to anyone who cannot be bothered to ask a civil question.
That's right people, for crying out loud, she's a big girl give her some credit. 
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Kaesekopf on February 28, 2014, 02:01:19 AM
(http://themintyplum.com/wordpress2/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/torches_pitchforks.jpg)
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: tmw89 on February 28, 2014, 06:36:45 AM
Ancilla and Bonaventure,

I didn't see a mention of active participation, or an intention to receive communion. As such, I think any fears of communicatio in sacris cum acatholicis misguided, and any warnings unwarranted.

...I ask both of you to take a look at what canonists have to say about this:

Quote from: Bouscaren & Ellis.  Canon Law.  1946.  pp. 639-640, emphases added.
It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258/1). Passive or merely material presence, for sake of civil courtesy, duty or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated at the funerals, weddings and other such celebration of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258/2).

1. Active Participation.  A person would participate actively in the worship of non-Catholics if, besides being physically present in the place where such worship was being conducted, he placed some positive act of worship in common with the non-Catholic worshipers. Such co-operation would be formal if it were done with the intention of really taking part in the worship; it would be merely material if done without that intention but for some other reaosn, for example mere civility or friendship.  All active participation is forbidden by the first paragraph of this canon, whether it be formal or merely material.

2. Passive Presence.  The second paragraph speaks of "merely passive or material presence."  A person is passively present if he is present without joining in any positive act of worship; his presence is voluntary but he abstains from any positive action.  It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law. The canon supposes that this is not the case, and consequently that the passive presence is merely material.  Even then such presence is not simply permitted because, though not intrinsically wrong by reason of it's object (the thing done) it is likely to be wrong by reason of it's circumstances or consequences.  Hence three conditions are laid down for it's licitness: (1) That there be a grave reason based on considerations of civil courtesy, duty, or respect; (2) that in case of doubt the sufficiency of the reason be approved by the Bishop; (3) that there be no danger either of perversion or scandal.  The functions at which such presence is then permitted are given by way of example, "funerals, weddings and other similar celebrations."  Applications of this canon are very numerous and varied; their discussion pertains rather to moral theology.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Petrie on February 28, 2014, 07:50:42 AM
Interesting that no one pretending to be so concerned bothered to ask me why I'm going or what I'll be doing there. No, it's much better to assume the worst and affect righteous indignation. I would have happily answered any questions, but I'm not going to be put on the defensive by people making assumptions. There are circumstances under which it is perfectly licit to attend an Orthodox liturgy. But I feel no obligation to justify myself to anyone who cannot be bothered to ask a civil question.

I dont see any assumptions being made. further, it is not my business to ask you why you are going. I only felt obligated to state some basic Catholic principles.

you appear to be the one making assumptions.

Agreed. And as for righteous indignation?  Hmmm.

Those of us posted in here were concerned for you.  We have posted to warn you of Catholic teaching on this because it was clear that you did not know of it.  Heck, I could've been you just a year ago thinking getting invited was just so great and exciting.  I also never would have given it a thought that there was even a possibility that it was wrong to attend.  With the false ecumenism post VII most Catholics would think this was just awesome.  Rather than get upset with us, perhaps you should seriously consider what has been posted. 
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Petrie on February 28, 2014, 07:53:11 AM
I didn't see a mention of active participation, or an intention to receive communion. As such, I think any fears of communicatio in sacris cum acatholicis misguided, and any warnings unwarranted.

you find a warning against going to a schismatic liturgy to be misguided and unwarranted?

I'm quite surprised hearing that from you.

Same here.  Given the level of excitement over attending, I think at least a warning was warranted.  Granted, tmw89 did a better job of providing specifics.   
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Landless Laborer on February 28, 2014, 12:46:03 PM
(http://themintyplum.com/wordpress2/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/torches_pitchforks.jpg)
Don't make me call up Nikolai ...

(http://s26.postimg.org/l1e46oj3d/Bhe_XH49_IIAAta_DL.jpg)
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Bonaventure on February 28, 2014, 04:49:26 PM
Because I have received messages and posters have expressed surprise, I will clearly state and, if possible, clarify what I said on this thread.

I. Any active participation in a non-Catholic rite, whether heretical or schismatic, is a grave offense to almighty God, and a scandal. The Holy Office, Canon Law, the Fathers, et al. are quite clear on this, and it is a violation of divine law.

II. The Pio-Benedictine Code of 1917, which I regard as binding, allows, as Fr. Carl Pulvermacher says, passive attendance at non-Catholic services "due to one's position or for politeness, provided the danger of perversion or scandal is precluded" (The Angelus, July 1983). The canon states:

Quote from: 1917 CIC, Canon 1258
Sec. 1 It is not licit for the faithful by any manner to assist actively or to have a part in the sacred [rites] of non-Catholics.
Sec. 2 Passive or merely material presence for the sake of honor or civil service, for grave reason approved by the Bishop in case of doubt, at the funerals, weddings, and other solemnities of non-Catholics, provided danger of perversion and scandal is absent.

Now, I gave Ancilla Domini the benefit of the doubt in this thread. As far as I know, since I do not have access to the interior forum, she is a Catholic in good standing, professing the Faith, free from canonical impediments. She states that she received an invitation to attend this said liturgy, which falls in line with what the late Fr. Pulvermacher said, "politeness," or the "sake of honor" stated in Canon Law. I do not think attendance at this rite, even if given undo enthusiasm or gusto, enables me to jump into inquisitorial mode - why are you going, who invited you, what's going on, don't tell me you're going orthodox, you know you can't receive communion, etc. - given that she is (a) a Catholic and (b) has not given any signs where such fraternal correction is obviously necessary. If she attends because there's no better option, I would be troubled and not recommend doing so.

I seldom answer to anyone save those who have actual authority over me, whether in the temporal, familial, or spiritual domain, but I choose to do so now, lest I am accused of misleading others in my position as a moderator of this Internet forum.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Christopher McAvoy on April 05, 2014, 05:32:29 PM
Some people speak of the schism between Orthodox and Catholics as more of a " gradual estrangement" that serious schism.

One can wonder how it is possible for there to be as many marriages between Orthodox and Catholics as there are, if it is a very serious schism. Is this a widespread abuse?
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: VeraeFidei on April 07, 2014, 12:30:07 AM
Some people speak of the schism between Orthodox and Catholics as more of a " gradual estrangement" that serious schism.

One can wonder how it is possible for there to be as many marriages between Orthodox and Catholics as there are, if it is a very serious schism. Is this a widespread abuse?
One needn't wonder that. It is more likely explained by men putting human concerns, emotions, and passions above the Faith.

Also, there is no such thing as a non-serious or semi-serious schism. Schism is by definition "serious."
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Christopher McAvoy on April 07, 2014, 01:35:10 AM
Quote
Sec. 1 It is not licit for the faithful by any manner to assist actively or to have a part in the sacred [rites] of non-Catholics.
Sec. 2 Passive or merely material presence for the sake of honor or civil service, for grave reason approved by the Bishop in case of doubt, at the funerals, weddings, and other solemnities of non-Catholics, provided danger of perversion and scandal is absent.

For a the spouses of a marriage in which one remains in Communion with Constantinople and another with Rome, not violating these canons is nearly impossible !!!  I've met and known people in this circumstance.  Over in Syria and Lebanon, where my mother spent part of her childhood, these canons have been violated for centuries... I find the level of ignorance of these canons quite odd. 
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on April 20, 2014, 03:55:13 PM
Quote
Sec. 1 It is not licit for the faithful by any manner to assist actively or to have a part in the sacred [rites] of non-Catholics.
Sec. 2 Passive or merely material presence for the sake of honor or civil service, for grave reason approved by the Bishop in case of doubt, at the funerals, weddings, and other solemnities of non-Catholics, provided danger of perversion and scandal is absent.

For a the spouses of a marriage in which one remains in Communion with Constantinople and another with Rome, not violating these canons is nearly impossible !!!  I've met and known people in this circumstance.  Over in Syria and Lebanon, where my mother spent part of her childhood, these canons have been violated for centuries... I find the level of ignorance of these canons quite odd. 

The Eastern Catholic churches have their own canon law. There may be different rules in effect there.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on April 20, 2014, 04:01:49 PM
Getting back to the original topic, I did attend a Divine Liturgy this past week, as a guest. But given the uproar that this has caused here, I won't continue to discuss it on the forum. Anyone interested in continuing the conversation is welcome to PM me.  :)
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Kaesekopf on April 22, 2014, 08:10:29 PM
I live near an Orthodox church.  D:
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Christopher McAvoy on April 24, 2014, 12:21:49 AM
Quote
Sec. 1 It is not licit for the faithful by any manner to assist actively or to have a part in the sacred [rites] of non-Catholics.
Sec. 2 Passive or merely material presence for the sake of honor or civil service, for grave reason approved by the Bishop in case of doubt, at the funerals, weddings, and other solemnities of non-Catholics, provided danger of perversion and scandal is absent.

For a the spouses of a marriage in which one remains in Communion with Constantinople and another with Rome, not violating these canons is nearly impossible !!!  I've met and known people in this circumstance.  Over in Syria and Lebanon, where my mother spent part of her childhood, these canons have been violated for centuries... I find the level of ignorance of these canons quite odd. 

The Eastern Catholic churches have their own canon law. There may be different rules in effect there.

Yes, I researched this, there are no canons that are THAT different, regarding intermarriage.

Unfortunately, I do not believe most Roman Rite Catholics have any serious interest or concern with for instance the history of the relations and or intermarriage between the Melkites "Greek" Catholics and Antiochian "Greek" Orthodox. As this forum is dominated by those of the Roman Rite, this type of obscure controversy over faith and canons simply is not on their radar.

Either intermarriage between all of them is always forbidden or it is not forbidden. Traditionally I believe it is always forbidden between all sui juris churches and schismatic churches.

I believe mixed marriages are a problem. All royalty in Europe has always converted to the other faith upon marriage arranged between those formerly E. Orthodox or R. Catholic/E. Catholic.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: INPEFESS on April 24, 2014, 12:47:05 AM
 :pray2:

Thank you, Kayla_Veronica, for your display of Catholic wisdom, prudence, and charity in this thread. The cavalier attitude toward the possibility of communicatio in sacris is worrisome. It is true charity that warns of spiritual danger, even when such a warning is unwelcomed.

Benefit of doubt doesn't exclude charitable warnings out of love for another when the purpose isn't made clear.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Christopher McAvoy on April 24, 2014, 01:08:18 AM
We could also bring up whether partaking of the antidoron would be blasphemous, occasionally Orthodox  (dare I say modernist influenced Orthodox) attempt to offer this to those who are not Orthodox. My understanding is that this is a modernist influence in their church, but what do I know. Who here even knows what antidoron is....
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on April 24, 2014, 01:13:05 AM
We could also bring up whether partaking of the antidoron would be blasphemous, occasionally Orthodox  (dare I say modernist influenced Orthodox) attempt to offer this to those who are not Orthodox. My understanding is that this is a modernist influence in their church, but what do I know. Who here even knows what antidoron is....

I do...  :D
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Patriarch on April 25, 2014, 04:24:58 PM
We could also bring up whether partaking of the antidoron would be blasphemous, occasionally Orthodox  (dare I say modernist influenced Orthodox) attempt to offer this to those who are not Orthodox. My understanding is that this is a modernist influence in their church, but what do I know. Who here even knows what antidoron is....

Do not assume that all Traditional Roman Catholics are ignorant of Byzantine Catholics' ways. I am well aware of what 'Antidoron' is. :)   I formerly attended a Ruthenian Catholic parish some years before coming upon my present Traditional parish. Still love the Divine Liturgy: so holy and mystical like that of the Traditional Latin mass!
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Roland Deschain2 on April 25, 2014, 05:17:23 PM
We could also bring up whether partaking of the antidoron would be blasphemous, occasionally Orthodox  (dare I say modernist influenced Orthodox) attempt to offer this to those who are not Orthodox. My understanding is that this is a modernist influence in their church, but what do I know. Who here even knows what antidoron is....

Being formally Orthodox, I do.

It means "Instead of the gifts."

You are also correct that this traditionally isn't done. In a ROCOR or other old calendar church you would not see antidoron being given to non-Orthodox.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Kaesekopf on April 25, 2014, 06:21:18 PM
We could also bring up whether partaking of the antidoron would be blasphemous, occasionally Orthodox  (dare I say modernist influenced Orthodox) attempt to offer this to those who are not Orthodox. My understanding is that this is a modernist influence in their church, but what do I know. Who here even knows what antidoron is....

Being formally Orthodox, I do.

It means "Instead of the gifts."

You are also correct that this traditionally isn't done. In a ROCOR or other old calendar church you would not see antidoron being given to non-Orthodox.

......?
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Patriarch on April 25, 2014, 06:29:34 PM
He was replying that he knew what Antidoron was; that's all.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Ancilla Domini on April 25, 2014, 06:31:52 PM
We could also bring up whether partaking of the antidoron would be blasphemous, occasionally Orthodox  (dare I say modernist influenced Orthodox) attempt to offer this to those who are not Orthodox. My understanding is that this is a modernist influence in their church, but what do I know. Who here even knows what antidoron is....

Being formally Orthodox, I do.

It means "Instead of the gifts."

You are also correct that this traditionally isn't done. In a ROCOR or other old calendar church you would not see antidoron being given to non-Orthodox.

......?

I believe Roland meant that he was formerly Orthodox.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Kaesekopf on April 25, 2014, 06:32:53 PM
I believe Roland meant that he was formerly Orthodox.

He should get rid of that ipad.  :lol:
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Roland Deschain2 on April 25, 2014, 07:19:21 PM
I believe Roland meant that he was formerly Orthodox.

He should get rid of that ipad.  :lol:

LOL....wow. I have to admit to that being my own fat fingers on a regular keyboard.

I have not had a case of Re-Dox....don't worry.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Lynne on April 25, 2014, 07:26:33 PM
I knew what he meant. I didn't even see the missing spelling.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Kaesekopf on April 25, 2014, 09:18:30 PM
Oh, I knew what he meant.  I just wanted to rib on him.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Christopher McAvoy on April 28, 2014, 02:59:01 AM
Roland, I have seen antidoron given to someone who was not yet Orthodox in a ROCOR church.

I have no idea whether or not this is against any canon, I suspect it does, but I am ignorant.
One of the things I miss in the present day Latin masses is that there is no blessed bread.
This was a lovely addition to the mass used in the western latin rite orthodox schismatic churches. The custom originates in the west, yet oddly lives on only in the east....of all ironies.
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: spasiisochrani on April 29, 2014, 11:02:39 AM
Giving antidoron to a non-Catholic would be no different than giving him something like a blessed rosary or green scapular. 
Title: Re: Question for Former Orthodox or Eastern-Rite Catholics
Post by: Christopher McAvoy on April 29, 2014, 06:47:27 PM
I'm not saying one way or another whether it's the right practice what I can say is this:

Welcoming protestants and non-catholics non-"orthodox" in the byzantine rite eucharist liturgy to receive anti-doron and not the eucharist has prevented literally THOUSANDS of people who ought not to receive communion from receiving it, and maintaining some semblence of order and right practice regarding reception of the Eucharist.

So in this respect, a revival of the use of antidoron or blessed bread would save the roman catholic catholic church some big headaches for eucharistic impropieties are epidemic and scandalous in our times.