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The Church Courtyard => Ask a Traditionalist => Topic started by: pioflower on May 18, 2020, 04:27:54 AM

Title: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: pioflower on May 18, 2020, 04:27:54 AM
Hi,

I know we have to live each day as if it's our last, but I'm awaiting for a conversion of a family member.
A lot of people are speculating Jesus is about to arrive? But our lady of good success talks about a restoration? What do you think will happen?
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Gardener on May 18, 2020, 08:24:08 AM
We should always be ready and not base our hope and faith on that which is not commanded, but permitted. If our faith falters and hope (these virtues are commanded) is attacked due to something not commanded (belief in private revelation), we should reconsider our belief in private revelation, or at least our understanding of it.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Miriam_M on May 18, 2020, 02:57:46 PM
One priest I know says that a worse chastisement than Covid will follow.  This is by no means a statement of private revelation he is making on his own, but what he logically sees as a sequence within the Fatima message.  (Nor did he speculate as to the timing of the next one.)  So since we're still in this current chastisement with respect to a global virus, it would not be likely that the Second Coming is around the corner, so to speak. It is probably more likely that worst chastisements or purifications will follow at some point. I think that both public and private revelation tend to point to more time, which would harmonize with your question about restoration.

However, I think what some of us see as contradictory is the urgent moral state of the world and signs of its not-too-distant collapse on one side of the equation, versus the length of time for conversion and restoration on the other side, and the two (in my mind, anyway) seem not to be nearly equivalent in the realm of earthly time.

Perhaps the way one can resolve this apparent chasm is to regard Covid as an opportunity to lengthen time to pray for the conversions of our family members and other fallen-away Catholics, and for grace to become effectual in them. I have myself close to a dozen intimates to pray for.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: mikemac on May 18, 2020, 03:45:51 PM
Hi,

I know we have to live each day as if it's our last, but I'm awaiting for a conversion of a family member.
A lot of people are speculating Jesus is about to arrive? But our lady of good success talks about a restoration? What do you think will happen?

Yeah always stay ready and continue to pray for the conversion of your family member.  But besides Our Lady of Good Success there are literally hundreds of Catholic prophecies that talk about a Catholic restoration.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: awkwardcustomer on May 20, 2020, 07:26:45 AM
Second Coming.....

There is no basis in Scripture for a restoration.  The idea of a chastisement followed by a restoration comes purely from prophecies and apparitions. 

Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Aeternitus on May 23, 2020, 08:47:05 AM
Second Coming.....

There is no basis in Scripture for a restoration.  The idea of a chastisement followed by a restoration comes purely from prophecies and apparitions.

I wonder about this, Awkward.  It is certainly true that the Church has not defined anything on when the end of the world takes place. She leaves it open to interpretation, by those equipped to do so, and there are differing views.   Suarez, for instance, maintains the end of the world will happen 45 days after the death of antichrist, and his basis for this is the prophecy of Daniel: “Happy is he who has hope and holds firm until the 1335th day”.  (The persecution of antichrist is to last 1290 days.) 

Fr Arminjon doesn’t agree with the above opinion and says:
Quote
the most authoritative view, and the one that seems to be in harmony with Holy Scripture, is that after the fall of antichrist, the catholic church will once again enter upon a period of prosperity and triumph.

He quotes St Paul:
Quote
If the fall of the Jews, which brought about the conversion of the Gentiles, was the strength of the Church and the richness of the world, and if their loss has become the salvation of men, what will their return be if not a resurrection for the world from death to life?

Fr A goes on to ask the question:
Quote
Is it really credible that the day when all people will be united in this long sought harmony will be the one when the heavens shall pass away with great violence – that the period when the church militant enters her fullness will coincide with that of the final catastrophe?

I find that a valid question worthy of consideration.  Though stating it was the more authoritative view, Fr Arminjon did not indicate who else held it and why he considered it the “more authoritative view”, so that needs investigating, but I do see the point he is making.    Is the mystical body of Christ’s glorious resurrection on earth to be over in an instant?  Does God miss out on having the entire world, united at last in the true faith and all now members of His church, praise and glorify Him on earth with the freedom of their will?  Continued in heaven, of course, as the church triumphant, but it just seems fitting to me that some period of united praise and adoration of God by the entire world should occur whilst still in the world.       

Of course I could be off track, but I find it an interesting question and I just don't think that prophecy alone is responsible for the idea of a restoration of some sort. 

 

 
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: awkwardcustomer on May 23, 2020, 12:45:41 PM
Second Coming.....

There is no basis in Scripture for a restoration.  The idea of a chastisement followed by a restoration comes purely from prophecies and apparitions.

I wonder about this, Awkward.  It is certainly true that the Church has not defined anything on when the end of the world takes place. She leaves it open to interpretation, by those equipped to do so, and there are differing views.   Suarez, for instance, maintains the end of the world will happen 45 days after the death of antichrist, and his basis for this is the prophecy of Daniel: “Happy is he who has hope and holds firm until the 1335th day”.  (The persecution of antichrist is to last 1290 days.) 

Thank you for your considered reply, Aeternitus, and for pointing out the above concerning the difference in the number of days.  There could well be a period of time between the death of the antichrist and the actual ending of the world.  Isn't this when the General Judgement takes place?

At any rate, my comment concerns the time before the coming of the antichrist, not after.  For there to be a 'great chastisement', or if the consecration happened, and a restoration followed, it would mean that the world would recover from the degraded state it is in, enjoy another golden age of Christendom, and then fall into degradation all over again.  And there is no Scriptural basis for this.


Quote
Fr Arminjon doesn’t agree with the above opinion and says:
Quote
the most authoritative view, and the one that seems to be in harmony with Holy Scripture, is that after the fall of antichrist, the catholic church will once again enter upon a period of prosperity and triumph.

He quotes St Paul:
Quote
If the fall of the Jews, which brought about the conversion of the Gentiles, was the strength of the Church and the richness of the world, and if their loss has become the salvation of men, what will their return be if not a resurrection for the world from death to life?

Fr A goes on to ask the question:
Quote
Is it really credible that the day when all people will be united in this long sought harmony will be the one when the heavens shall pass away with great violence – that the period when the church militant enters her fullness will coincide with that of the final catastrophe?

St Paul states that Christ destroys the antichrist when He comes again.  Isn't that when the Jews convert? So again, the period being discussed here is after the rise of the antichrist, not before.  And allowing for, say, 45 days to sort the sheep from the goats and complete the General Judgement, the old world passes away and the new one begins.  Isn't that what St Paul is referring to. 

Quote
I find that a valid question worthy of consideration.  Though stating it was the more authoritative view, Fr Arminjon did not indicate who else held it and why he considered it the “more authoritative view”, so that needs investigating, but I do see the point he is making.    Is the mystical body of Christ’s glorious resurrection on earth to be over in an instant?  Does God miss out on having the entire world, united at last in the true faith and all now members of His church, praise and glorify Him on earth with the freedom of their will?  Continued in heaven, of course, as the church triumphant, but it just seems fitting to me that some period of united praise and adoration of God by the entire world should occur whilst still in the world.       

Of course I could be off track, but I find it an interesting question and I just don't think that prophecy alone is responsible for the idea of a restoration of some sort.

These are interesting questions, and I don't know the answers.  But why would God be missing out on anything if the world ended 45 days, lets say, after Christ came again.  Isn't that when the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven, and the old world passes away and the new one begins?

Hmmm....

The main point of my comment is that I believe we are living on the time of the rise of the antichrist and that there will be no restoration or period of peace before Christ comes again.  If there is a period of glory for the Church after the General Judgement etc, then that would be lovely.  If not, it won't matter because the new Jerusalem will be even better.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Miriam_M on May 23, 2020, 01:49:12 PM

The main point of my comment is that I believe we are living on the time of the rise of the antichrist and that there will be no restoration or period of peace before Christ comes again.  If there is a period of glory for the Church after the General Judgement etc, then that would be lovely.  If not, it won't matter because the new Jerusalem will be even better.

This has always been my own thinking, at least what I have been inclined to believe. The transformation of the faithful Church Militant into the Church Triumphant is infinitely more of a restoration than an earthly restoration, it seems to me.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Xavier on May 23, 2020, 02:03:58 PM
Yes, Fr. Arminjon's writings explain it beautifully. Here are the passages in Sacred Scripture, as explained by Father in that book St. Therese liked, that speak of a Reign of Peace, when God's (Christ's) Kingship is recognized in all nations: "Now, it is written that, at the end of time, the gospel will have been given as a witness to all the nations. David cries out, "All peoples, to the ends of the earth, will remember the Lord and re-turn to Him, because dominion belongs to Him and He governs the nations" (Ps 22:28-29).

Further on, David continues, "May He rule from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth. His foes shall bow before Him, and His enemies shall lick the dust. The kings of Tarshish and the Isles shall offer gifts; the kings of Arabia and Sheba shall bring tribute" (Ps. 72:8-10).

The Lord then speaks to the Church through Isaiah: "Enlarge the space of your tent, spread out your tent cloths unsparingly; lengthen your ropes and make firm your stakes. For you shall spread abroad to the right and to the left; your descendants shall dispossess the nations and shall populate the desolate cities” (Is 54:2-3).

These texts are explicit and precise. It is clear from their testimony that there will come a time when all heresies and schisms will be overcome, and when the true religion will be known and practiced in all places illuminated by the sun." https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/g004EndTimes.htm

But the question is not as simple as it seems at first glance. In fact, "either Anti-Christ or Period of Peace" is a dichotomy. But it is a dichotomy we are all used to, because we are all used to the idea that everything must immediately end immediately after Anti-Christ. But Isaiah speaks of a Temporal Reign of Peace (Isa 65:20) where everyone will live a long time before death. This could not refer to eternal life, but to the prophesied period of peace before it. But again, isn't it written that when the Jews will convert, there will be great blessings for all that will last a long while? And yet how is that possible if on the other hand it is also written that when the Anti-Christ comes, the Jews will accept him as the Messiah? We cannot fail to see, then, that Anti-Christ will come before the Period of Peace. The Jews will first accept him as their Messiah. But later on they will regret it, see through Anti-Christ, and then turn to Christ. And this imo will spark the period of great blessing spoken of in the Apostles and Prophets, and what we call the Age of Mary or the Period of Peace. And so I believe Anti-Christ is alive and currently living on earth, and will show himself to the world before long. Period of Peace after it.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: mikemac on May 23, 2020, 02:37:17 PM
... Thy kingdom come.
    Thy will be done
    on earth as it is in heaven. ...

Yes, it could be meaning after Judgement Day, but that would be speculating.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: awkwardcustomer on May 23, 2020, 03:06:25 PM
Quote

[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more. [2] And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people; and God himself with them shall be their God. [4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away. [5] And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me: Write, for these words are most faithful and true.
Rev 21

Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: mikemac on May 23, 2020, 04:16:09 PM
Yes, Apocalypse 21 is clearly talking about after Judgment Day.  It sounds like heaven and earth will be one place with "the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them."

But if that's the case then why does Our Lord's prayer say God's Will will be done on earth as it is in heaven.  Two different places; you know like it is now, before Judgment Day.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: awkwardcustomer on May 23, 2020, 08:42:45 PM
Yes, Apocalypse 21 is clearly talking about after Judgment Day.  It sounds like heaven and earth will be one place with "the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them."

But if that's the case then why does Our Lord's prayer say God's Will will be done on earth as it is in heaven.  Two different places; you know like it is now, before Judgment Day.

Isn't it an expression of desire and hope rather than a prediction, hope and the aspiration that the name of Our Father in Heaven will be hallowed, that His Kingdom will come and His Will will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

If God's Will was done on both earth and in heaven, would they be separate?  Would they need to be?  Surely God's Will would unite earth and heaven and there would be no need for the separation.

To be honest, your question has never occurred to me before.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: mikemac on May 24, 2020, 12:40:23 AM
Yeah we don't really know for sure whether Our Lord's prayer is referring to His Will being done in two separate places, heaven and earth, do we?  Like I said, it's speculation but my guess would be two places before Judgement Day.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Aeternitus on May 24, 2020, 04:41:29 AM
   

I agree with you, Awkward, there is no scriptural basis for believing in a restoration prior to antichrist.  The restoration which Fr Arminjon talks about is definitely after antichrist, when the Jews and the entire world will be converted to the true faith, as a result of the rise and fall of antichrist. 

Fr Arminjon argues that the death of antichrist does not herald the Second Coming and the end of the world.  I will let him explain:

Quote
St John does not tell us what the fate of the antichrist will be, but St Paul teaches that “the Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and annihilate him by manifesting His own presence.”

Some have concluded from this passage that Christ is to come down in person to strike His great adversary, and this will be the day when He will appear in His glory and majesty.  This interpretation is incorrect.  St Thomas and St John Chrysostom explain the words quem Dominus Jesus destuet illustratione adventus sui (whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the brightness of His coming) in the sense that Christ will strike the antichrist by dazzling him with a brightness that will be like an omen and sign of His Second Coming. St Paul does not at all say that Christ will kill him with His own hands, but by His breath, “spiritu oris sui” (with the spirit of His mouth) – that is, as St Thomas explains, by virtue of His power, as a result of His command, whether, as some believe, executing it  through the cooperation of St Michael the Archangel, or having some other agent, visible or invisible, spiritual or inanimate, intervene.  What is certain is that Satan will be hurled back into the darkness of the abyss, the reign of the man of evil will be utterly destroyed, and his power, which aspired to extend up to the heaven, will vanish like a cloud of smoke.

Like you, I am of the view that antichrist is nigh.   The stage has been set.  I am open minded on what happens after his demise, but find Fr Arminjon's arguments both interesting and convincing.   I am not yet persuaded of a 45 day interim, which Fr A quotes as being one opinion only (Suarez) and not his.   






Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: mikemac on May 24, 2020, 12:10:46 PM
So Aeternitus I assume that you are quoting from 'The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life' by Fr. Charles Arminjon, eh?

https://www.catholiccompany.com/end-present-world-i20230/

"Reading this book was one of the greatest graces of my life!" — St. Thérèse of Lisieux

That's quite the review of Fr. Arminjon's book, considering the Little Flower was also influence by 'The Imitation of Christ' by Thomas à Kempis.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: mikemac on May 24, 2020, 12:34:49 PM
The first time I heard that the period of peace will come after the antichrist is put away was back six or seven years ago when we were still going to the other forum.  Guapo told me that is what Solange Hertz believed and wrote about.  It was hard to grasp to start with but now it makes sense.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Aeternitus on May 24, 2020, 04:29:08 PM
So Aeternitus I assume that you are quoting from 'The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life' by Fr. Charles Arminjon, eh?

https://www.catholiccompany.com/end-present-world-i20230/

"Reading this book was one of the greatest graces of my life!" — St. Thérèse of Lisieux

That's quite the review of Fr. Arminjon's book, considering the Little Flower was also influence by 'The Imitation of Christ' by Thomas à Kempis.

Yes, I am quoting from this book.  First read it about 30 years ago and find myself going back to it regularly.  I think it is an excellent read and particularly for these times.  He draws on the teachings of the Fathers, doctors and saints to support his arguments. 
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: mikemac on May 24, 2020, 06:42:20 PM
So Aeternitus I assume that you are quoting from 'The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life' by Fr. Charles Arminjon, eh?

https://www.catholiccompany.com/end-present-world-i20230/

"Reading this book was one of the greatest graces of my life!" — St. Thérèse of Lisieux

That's quite the review of Fr. Arminjon's book, considering the Little Flower was also influence by 'The Imitation of Christ' by Thomas à Kempis.

Yes, I am quoting from this book.  First read it about 30 years ago and find myself going back to it regularly.  I think it is an excellent read and particularly for these times.  He draws on the teachings of the Fathers, doctors and saints to support his arguments.

It sounds like it would be well worth the $20.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: james03 on May 24, 2020, 07:16:06 PM
I believe anti-Christ is already alive.

As far as some restoration or period of peace between the fall of anti-Christ and the Second Coming, possible, but unimportant in these times.

If you are expecting a restoration and the rise of a powerful Church bringing morals back to the Earth, BEFORE anti-Christ, my opinion is you are in for a huge disappointment.  You can see what is fixing to happen:

Big Data and instant communications means you are ALREADY in the database.
Chinese social credit is the mechanism to leverage that.  It will come here.
We will have $30 TRILLION in debt by 2021.  That WILL blow up.  And when it does it will dwarf the wipe out of 1929.
Western society is frail.  Look at the reaction from a disease milder than the flu.
The perversion rampant in society would shock even me, and I've seen some things.
The Western military is gone, except Special Forces, which is low in number.  In one incident a destroyer collided with a slow moving container ship because the female navigation officer was in a cat fight with the female deck officer because they were both banging the same man and refused to talk to each other.  In another incident armored patrol boats were captured by fiberglass Iranian civilian craft with ONE small machine gun, because the Americans had a woman on board and lost the will to fight.
Western Universities are GONE and will never come back.
The Institutional Catholic Church is GONE, an insignificant Tranny/Fag rights NGO.  And every time Bergoglio replaces another Cardinal, it gets worse.
Demographics means someone like Ocasio Cortez or Ilhan Omar will be elected President in 2024.  And 2020 is not even a sure thing.
Our perversion has reached a level that as Greg said, if God doesn't level this place He owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology.

Likely outcome: Trump gets reelected (Dems are nuts / Demographics aren't quite there).  Dem in 2024.  Economic wipe out.  More and more police state.  War with China.  Rise of anti-Christ peace maker.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Miriam_M on May 24, 2020, 09:41:22 PM
I believe anti-Christ is already alive.

Sometimes I think this, too.  But at some point, would he not have to make himself visible/known for there to be a moment of reckoning with regard to him and his 3.5 year reign?.

Quote
If you are expecting a restoration and the rise of a powerful Church bringing morals back to the Earth, BEFORE anti-Christ, my opinion is you are in for a huge disappointment.  You can see what is fixing to happen:


We will have $30 TRILLION in debt by 2021.  That WILL blow up.  And when it does it will dwarf the wipe out of 1929.

Agree, and I don't see why more people are not alarmed by this probability.

Quote
Western society is frail.  Look at the reaction from a disease milder than the flu.

Although I rail about it everywhere, I'm still in half-denial that grown men can be so timid and act so overwhelmed by their inability to control every particle of their environment.  This means, to me, that they fear their own level of courage in adversity, which is itself a frightening thought, should we be militarily invaded, for example.  Awesome.  Women and children will have absolutely no men we can count on to protect us.

Quote
The Institutional Catholic Church is GONE, an insignificant Tranny/Fag rights NGO.  And every time Bergoglio replaces another Cardinal, it gets worse.

Can't agree more.  It's not only that they have no trust in God (something I spoke of another thread); they seem to have no faith in God, either.  I suddenly feel as if I owe no allegiance whatsoever to the bishops.  They are the ones initiating these bizarre, dystopian versions of faux-sanitized "Catholic" Masses.  Could they Man Up already? 

Quote
Demographics means someone like Ocasio Cortez or Ilhan Omar will be elected President in 2024.  And 2020 is not even a sure thing.

Unless Biden chooses that woman from Georgia, which he might get pressured into by the leftist bullies in his party and in the MSM.

Quote
Likely outcome: Trump gets reelected (Dems are nuts / Demographics aren't quite there).
 

The likelihood would be based on a combination of the economic rage of middle America and the observable senility of Biden.

Quote
Dem in 2024.  Economic wipe out.  More and more police state.  War with China.  Rise of anti-Christ peace maker.

That is quite possible, i.m.o.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: awkwardcustomer on May 25, 2020, 02:49:48 AM
If what we're witnessing is the roll out of the digitalised, surveillance, totalitarian, global NWO under cover of a fake flu pandemic, and if the global NWO is the reign of the antichrist, then the antichrist is bound to make an appearance soon.

According to St Cyril of Jerusalem, the antichrist will be the ape of Christ and will make a sudden entry onto the world scene at the same age Christ did - 33.  And since it's the antichrist who will cause all to accept the mark of the beast, according to Revelations, it's likely that he will be here by the time the RFID chip is rolled out in order to help ensure everyone accepts it.  So look out for some figure to emerge, possibly an extremely charismatic 33 year old man who preaches universal love and peace and is an expert media manipulator ….  I can't believe I'm saying this.

We'll know soon enough.

Relax ….
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Miriam_M on May 25, 2020, 03:16:17 AM
Wouldn't it be amazing if all of us on this forum were alive after the reign of the antichrist?  (Because if that reign is "soon," that will probably be true.)
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Sempronius on May 25, 2020, 04:24:51 AM
If what we're witnessing is the roll out of the digitalised, surveillance, totalitarian, global NWO under cover of a fake flu pandemic, and if the global NWO is the reign of the antichrist, then the antichrist is bound to make an appearance soon.

According to St Cyril of Jerusalem, the antichrist will be the ape of Christ and will make a sudden entry onto the world scene at the same age Christ did - 33.  And since it's the antichrist who will cause all to accept the mark of the beast, according to Revelations, it's likely that he will be here by the time the RFID chip is rolled out in order to help ensure everyone accepts it.  So look out for some figure to emerge, possibly an extremely charismatic 33 year old man who preaches universal love and peace and is an expert media manipulator ….  I can't believe I'm saying this.

We'll know soon enough.

Relax ….

Following that logic then he would appear at the age of 12
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: awkwardcustomer on May 25, 2020, 04:42:14 AM
It would be wonderful.

What about a timeline though?  Let's say it takes them a year, maybe 18 months, to introduce the RFID/vaccine/digital tracking device without which no-one can buy or sell in the new global, cashless, digital economy.

Presumably that's the timeframe in which we can expect the antichrist to appear since St Paul explicitly states that he will cause all to accept the mark.

So let's say the antichrist appears within the next 18 months and then reigns for three and a half years with a period in between his appearance and him being crowned and sitting in the temple. That makes 5 years, plus, what, 6 months, a year? 

And then, according to St Paul, it is Christ Himself who destroys the antichrist, who shall ' kill hi with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy him with the brightness of his coming'.  Which would put the Second Coming of Christ at 5-6 years from now.

It can't be happening.

But if it is, if, all we have to do is stay alive during the reign of the antichrist and we will witness the Second Coming of Christ.  My goodness …. what a thought.  What if it's true.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: awkwardcustomer on May 25, 2020, 04:48:38 AM
If what we're witnessing is the roll out of the digitalised, surveillance, totalitarian, global NWO under cover of a fake flu pandemic, and if the global NWO is the reign of the antichrist, then the antichrist is bound to make an appearance soon.

According to St Cyril of Jerusalem, the antichrist will be the ape of Christ and will make a sudden entry onto the world scene at the same age Christ did - 33.  And since it's the antichrist who will cause all to accept the mark of the beast, according to Revelations, it's likely that he will be here by the time the RFID chip is rolled out in order to help ensure everyone accepts it.  So look out for some figure to emerge, possibly an extremely charismatic 33 year old man who preaches universal love and peace and is an expert media manipulator ….  I can't believe I'm saying this.

We'll know soon enough.

Relax ….

Following that logic then he would appear at the age of 12

Maybe. 

A 12 year old antichrist would be truly scary.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: queen.saints on May 25, 2020, 05:01:23 AM

Just wait until he turns 13...


Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Xavier on May 25, 2020, 08:45:31 AM
Although Revelation uses symbolic language, if you take it in its most plain sense, it speaks of some kind of peace after Anti-Christ, the Beast, and the False Prophet. It calls this the "1000 years"; we generally understand that as only symbolic for a long period of time, but if you see, the Beast and the False Prophet are already in hell, when that temporal period begins; when St. Michael the ArchAngel throws them in. So we have another confirmation that the Beast, the False Prophet will come first, then a judgment upon them, and then peace.

Rev 20:[1] "And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain in his hand. [2] And he laid hold on the dragon the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years."

Fr. Holzhauser changes the "1000 years" to simply "for many years" - "Peace will reign in all the universe, because the divine power will bind Satan for many years". So although it is symbolic, it still appears to refer to a period of time that comes after Anti-Christ.

And the other consideration also seems solid: (1) The Jewish people will not convert till Anti-Christ comes, for they will at first believe him to be the Messiah; but (2) the Period of Peace will come only when the Jewish people convert. (3) Hence, it comes after Anti-Christ.

Fr. Holzhauser makes clear the Sixth Age is the age when the Jewish people have come to Christ: "likewise, in this epoch, the people of Israel will be consoled to a very high degree by the Lord, our God". St. Cyril had foretold the same thing, "Saint Cyril of Alexandria says this: “Towards the end of time, Our Lord Jesus Christ will effect the reconciliation of His former persecutor Israel with Himself. Everybody who knows Holy Scripture is aware that, in the course of time, this people will return to the love of Christ by the submission of faith…. Yes, one day, after the conversion of the Gentiles, Israel will be converted, and the Jews will be astonished at the Treasure they will find in Christ” (Commentary on Genesis, Bk. 5). https://catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-310.html

Mat 24:14 gives us one of the conditions for the end to come, and Fr. Arminjon laid a lot of stress upon this: "The first of the events foreshadowing the end of time is the one to which the Savior refers in Matthew 24:14, when He says, "This good news of the Kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world as a witness to all the nations. Only after that will the end come." ..." The best thing we can do is proclaim the Gospel, and strive for the conversion of the Jews to Christ, and of all people everywhere to His reign.

I am of the view that the invasion of Rome foretold in Fatima and by Pope St. Pius X where the Pope will be killed will take place in 2029, going by the analogy of how France fell 100 years after the consecration was requested and not performed; so, likewise, it seems Rome will fall in 2029, as some expect. And Cardinal Manning makes clear that for the persecution of Anti-Christ to begin, which will be the greatest and worst persecution in all history, when so many of the righteous will have to be martyred, the Pope must be driven out of Rome first. Then the False Prophet and the Beast will reign. It will seem as if their reign will never end, but it will be destroyed by Christ after the 3 1/2 years: "The apostasy of the city of Rome from the vicar of Christ and its destruction by Antichrist may be thoughts very new to many Catholics, that I think it well to recite the text of theologians of greatest repute. First Malvenda, who writes expressly on the subject, states as the opinion of Ribera, Gaspar Melus, Biegas, Suarrez, Bellarmine and Bosius that Rome shall apostatize from the Faith, drive away the Vicar of Christ and return to its ancient paganism" http://www.marienfried.com/catholic%20teachings/prophecy%20of%20apostasy.html

As Christ began His ministry around 30 years of age, in the 15th year of the emperor Tiberius, as the Gospel of St. Luke says, i.e. in 29 A.D. probably around September, it may be fitting that Anti-Christ shows himself to the world just about 2000 years later. But we will see. The best we can do is pray and prepare, and strive to grow in grace, knowledge and love of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: james03 on May 25, 2020, 10:05:35 AM
Quote
Sometimes I think this, too.  But at some point, would he not have to make himself visible/known for there to be a moment of reckoning with regard to him and his 3.5 year reign?.

Yes, he'll be world famous.  Right now he'd be a kid.

I threw out a low probability theory that 666 was his naming day, which was June 6, 2006.  So he'd appear in 2036.  If the Fatima warning from Tuy ends the 100 years in 2029 or 2031, then that would be a good time for the war to break out.

Now you can ignore all of that and just get back to the debt bomb.  Deep depressions oftentimes lead to war.  Our adversary is the Red Dragon, China.

One interesting thing is that the obvious geo-strategic move was for Trump to form a strong alliance with Russia as there really isn't much overlap in interest between Russia and the US, EXCEPT China.  And a heck of a lot of effort was put in to wreck that.  My theory was that Hezbollah beat Israel in 2006.  Hezbollah is supplied by Syria.  ZOG worked to take over Syria until Russia stepped in.  ZOG started trouble in Ukraine in response (Nuland/Soros) to get a bargaining chip.  Trump comes in promising to get us out of Syria and have better relations with Russia.  There's your motivation for Spygate.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: james03 on May 25, 2020, 10:16:23 AM
Quote
Women and children will have absolutely no men we can count on to protect us.

That's already the case in a lot of places.  But then again, how many women that are left deserve protection?  In the old days most of them would get death by stoning.

The demoralization / cultural marxism attack is right in front of your face.  Feminism which has turned the vast majority of women into whores and demasculinized a lot of men into simps.  Marriage is disappearing.  Children are either kenneled or raised by single moms on welfare.

Demoralization is an error of Russia.  There's a reason Putin is protecting Russian society from it, because he fully knows what it is and what effect it has.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: mikemac on May 26, 2020, 10:05:36 AM
Our Lady of La Salette says the period of peace will last for 25 years.

https://www.piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/apparitions/la_salette.html
Quote
“At one blow the persecutors of the Church of Jesus Christ and all men given to sin will perish, and the earth will become like a desert. Then there will be peace, the reconciliation of God with men; Jesus Christ will be served, adored and glorified; charity will flourish everywhere. The new kings will be the right arm of Holy Church, which will be strong, humble, pious, poor, zealous and imitative of the virtues of Jesus Christ. The Gospel will be preached everywhere, and men will make great strides in the faith, because there will be unity among Jesus Christ's workers and men will live in the fear of God.

"This peace among men will not last long: 25 years of abundant harvests will make them forget that the sins of men are the cause of all the woes which happen on earth."
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: james03 on May 26, 2020, 01:01:44 PM
Quote
After over the weekend international reports said that multiple hundreds, or up to 1,000 Chinese troops have crossed into India following prior small-scale skirmishes weeks ago involving dozens of Indian and Chinese soldiers near a remote but strategically important mountain pass near Tibet, Indian media is now reporting that up to five to ten thousand PLA troops have now moved into Ladakh’s disputed Galwan river area.

Some Indian media reports have suggested multiple thousands, while a new Business Standard India report now claims up to 10,000 Chinese soldiers inside India occupying the Galwan Valley while digging into fortified positions.

Though such figures remain unconfirmed and very likely inflated, it's clear that Indian authorities are watching with growing alarm what they view as an 'invasion' of their sovereign territory.

In order for the Red Dragon to stand on the shore of the Med Sea, it has to come through India.  This is probably just another skirmish, but considering the dire economic situation China finds itself in, keep an eye on it.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: mikemac on May 26, 2020, 04:24:13 PM
Quote
After over the weekend international reports said that multiple hundreds, or up to 1,000 Chinese troops have crossed into India following prior small-scale skirmishes weeks ago involving dozens of Indian and Chinese soldiers near a remote but strategically important mountain pass near Tibet, Indian media is now reporting that up to five to ten thousand PLA troops have now moved into Ladakh’s disputed Galwan river area.

Some Indian media reports have suggested multiple thousands, while a new Business Standard India report now claims up to 10,000 Chinese soldiers inside India occupying the Galwan Valley while digging into fortified positions.

Though such figures remain unconfirmed and very likely inflated, it's clear that Indian authorities are watching with growing alarm what they view as an 'invasion' of their sovereign territory.

In order for the Red Dragon to stand on the shore of the Med Sea, it has to come through India.  This is probably just another skirmish, but considering the dire economic situation China finds itself in, keep an eye on it.

Actually there is a 47 mile wide border between Afghanistan and China.  Originally the route of the Silk Road, apparently there are two passes through the mountains, the Wakhjir Pass and the Tegermansu Pass.

Source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan%E2%80%93China_border

But yeah, not looking good.


Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Miriam_M on May 26, 2020, 04:58:59 PM
James and Mike,

Are these disputed territories?
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: mikemac on May 26, 2020, 05:12:51 PM
James and Mike,

Are these disputed territories?

James may know better, but it looks to me that China is encroaching on Indian land.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Davis Blank - EG on May 26, 2020, 06:12:44 PM
Yes, there are numerous blocks of disputed land between China & India that date back to the times Britain controlled India.  This has yet to be resolved and flares up from time to time over the past hundred years.

---

It seems that every time Christians are living in a society that is on the decline they claim it is the End Times, ignoring that the much larger rest of the world may not be experiencing the same troubles.  So far these numerous predictions have a 0% batting average.

Sodom and Gomorrah were crushed but the world went on.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: mikemac on May 26, 2020, 06:16:04 PM
In order for the Red Dragon to stand on the shore of the Med Sea, it has to come through India.  This is probably just another skirmish, but considering the dire economic situation China finds itself in, keep an eye on it.

Actually there is a 47 mile wide border between Afghanistan and China.  Originally the route of the Silk Road, apparently there are two passes through the mountains, the Wakhjir Pass and the Tegermansu Pass.

Source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan%E2%80%93China_border


Also there is the Karakoram Highway that connects China with Pakistan, that looks to me that it goes through the India and Pakistan disputed territory of Kashmir.

Karakoram Highway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakoram_Highway


Where China is encroaching into India now is quite a bit south east of the Karakoram Highway though, so who knows what China is up to.  Maybe Xavier would know?
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: mikemac on May 26, 2020, 06:23:07 PM
Yes, there are numerous blocks of disputed land between China & India that date back to the times Britain controlled India.  This has yet to be resolved and flares up from time to time over the past hundred years.


I knew there were disputed lands between India and Pakistan, particularly Kashmir, dating back to the times Britain controlled India.  I didn't know there was disputed land between China and India dating back to the same period.  I guess that explains what China is doing then, eh?   
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: awkwardcustomer on May 29, 2020, 07:57:32 AM
What about the events which take place once the antichrist has established his reign?

According to Revelations -

Ch 13 - the antichrist causes all to accept the mark without which no-one can buy or sell,

Ch 14 - describes what shall happen to the wicked who adore the beast and announces and announces that the time for reaping the harvest of the earth has come,

Ch 15 - seven angels appear with the seven last plagues,

Ch 16 - the plagues are poured out .....

Quote
[1] And I heard a great voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels: Go, and pour out the seven vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. [2] And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth, and there fell a sore and grievous wound upon men, who had the character of the beast; and upon them that adored the image thereof. [3] And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea, and there came blood as it were of a dead man; and every living soul died in the sea. [4] And the third poured out his vial upon the rivers and the fountains of waters; and there was made blood

                                                  ....... until the seventh and last plague, by which time the armies of the antichrist consisting of those who have accepted the mark and been infuriated by the first six plagues, are gathered at Armagedon for the final battle.

Quote
[16] And he shall gather them together into a place, which in Hebrew is called Armagedon. [17] And the seventh angel poured out his vial upon the air, and there came a great voice out of the temple from the throne, saying: It is done. [18] And there were lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and there was a great earthquake, such an one as never had been since men were upon the earth, such an earthquake, so great. [19] And the great city was divided into three parts; and the cities of the Gentiles fell. And great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the indignation of his wrath. [20] And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Ch 17 then describes the Whore of Babylon.  Is this a representation of the cities?  Will London lie in ruins?

This is my first reading anyway.  At any rate, it seems as if quite a lot goes on during the reign of the antichrist besides horrendous persecutions.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: james03 on May 29, 2020, 09:59:59 AM
The Whore of Babylon is the jewish people.  They are frequently referred to as whores in the Old Testament.

There are various choices for the Great Babylon.  Jerusalem, Rome, London, or NYC seem like likely candidates.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: awkwardcustomer on May 29, 2020, 10:56:28 AM
So, the fall of Babylon takes place during the reign of the antichrist as a result of the seventh of the seven last plagues?

The first six of the seven last plagues, which also take place once the antichrist's reign has begun, are -

- wounds appear on those who have accepted the mark;
- the sea turns into blood;
- the rivers turn into blood;
- the sun becomes ferociously hot;
- Ch16, v10 - 'the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom became dark, and they gnawed their tongues for pain';
- the River Euphrates dries up.

Are these literal descriptions of what will happen, quite soon if the antichrist is alive as some appear to think is possible?

Here's the full description of the seventh of the seventh last plagues.

Quote
[16] And he shall gather them together into a place, which in Hebrew is called Armagedon. [17] And the seventh angel poured out his vial upon the air, and there came a great voice out of the temple from the throne, saying: It is done. [18] And there were lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and there was a great earthquake, such an one as never had been since men were upon the earth, such an earthquake, so great. [19] And the great city was divided into three parts; and the cities of the Gentiles fell. And great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the indignation of his wrath. [20] And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16.

'.... and the great city was divided into three parts; and the cities of the Gentiles fell.'

Those who somehow manage to survive the persecutions of the antichrist will also witness all of the above as well as the Second Coming of Christ. 
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: LausTibiChriste on June 05, 2020, 03:42:40 AM
James and Mike,

Are these disputed territories?

James may know better, but it looks to me that China is encroaching on Indian land.

Chinese are white people too?
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Gardener on June 05, 2020, 10:02:34 AM
The Whore of Babylon is the jewish people.  They are frequently referred to as whores in the Old Testament.

There are various choices for the Great Babylon.  Jerusalem, Rome, London, or NYC seem like likely candidates.

More likely Jerusalem all around:

http://www.joemcclane.com/downloads/Pitre-Who-is-the-Whore-of-Babylon.pdf

Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Graham on June 05, 2020, 11:06:47 AM
Third way: God helps those who help themselves. This is the pragmatic shortcut around all the fine-grained speculations on prophecy, divine intervention, and grace. It is also the tonic that pessimistic, passive, insular and downright lazy Christian conservatives need.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Gardener on June 05, 2020, 03:16:09 PM
Third way: God helps those who help themselves. This is the pragmatic shortcut around all the fine-grained speculations on prophecy, divine intervention, and grace. It is also the tonic that pessimistic, passive, insular and downright lazy Christian conservatives need.

Sounds semi-pelagian, and also could lead to the mentality that those who don't seem to be helped are abandoned by God.
Title: Re: Great restoration or second coming
Post by: Graham on June 05, 2020, 03:44:42 PM
You're missing the point. You're still theologizing; I called it the pragmatic shortcut.