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The Church Courtyard => Ask a Traditionalist => Topic started by: Philip G. on October 16, 2019, 12:56:51 AM

Title: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 16, 2019, 12:56:51 AM
I am one of those catholics who does not believe that the Virgin Mary died.  As a catholic I obviously believe that she was bodily assumed in to heaven.  But, if she were to have died as some insist occurred, then with her body being assumed in to heaven(united to her soul after a so called valid death), something unique only to the general judgement/end of the world had to  occur for Mary, but obviously not yet for the rest of us.   

Doesn't that seem strange and out of place?  All the other saints in heaven have to wait until the end of the world and the general judgement to receive their glorified bodies, but not Mary?  Why would God have Mary undergo death and perform the same act for her privately instead of waiting until the end for of the world with the rest of humanity(which I also don't believe, because I don't believe that death ever will touch the virgin)?  This to me for one suggests that she did not die.  It sort of downplays the importance of the general judgement in my opinion.  Has this marian general judgement aspect been discussed by theologians?  And, what is their argument?  There is theological implications to this it would seem to me. 
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Kreuzritter on October 16, 2019, 06:26:19 AM
Moses? He appeared at the Transfiguration. Moses certainly died. So either that was a glorified body or mere appearance, but that would make him out-of-place next to Jesus and Elijah.

She allegedly has bodily apparitions. So, if she didn't die, is that a real body and glorified body or not?
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 16, 2019, 01:09:12 PM
Moses? He appeared at the Transfiguration. Moses certainly died. So either that was a glorified body or mere appearance, but that would make him out-of-place next to Jesus and Elijah.

She allegedly has bodily apparitions. So, if she didn't die, is that a real body and glorified body or not?

I will have to think that the Moses of the Transfiguration was not his resurrected body, especially because that was a pre-passion occasion, and heaven was not yet opened to him, or anyone for that matter.  So, I say soul appearance/mystical vision. 

Regarding Mary, don't get me wrong, it is a mystery.  I would say that her bodily apparitions are her glorified body, which is the same as her real body.  The difference is in the fact that her glorified body, as well as the assumption, is a result of Jesus. 

Is it the opinion of theologians that pre passion there were resurrected/glorified bodies of old testament figures in heaven?  Some people say enoch.  You mention moses and elijah.  It seems straightforward to me that pre passion, and pre general judgement for that matter, there would be none. 

And, the general judgement doctrine seems straightforward enough to me as well, that is our bodies will be raised and joined to our souls.  If Mary must undergo death for some co redemption type reason, how is it efficacious when not associated with our bodily resurrection schedule and universal application? Christ has sacraments, Mary does not.  Her death doesn't make sense with these things in mind.  It makes it much easier for me to simply believe that she did not die, or ever will.  Which, I find to be a very delightful prospect. 
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: sedmohradsko on October 16, 2019, 04:03:42 PM
While not de fide, the Eastern tradition is that she did indeed die.  As the tradition goes, the Theotokos passed away, and all the apostles were called to come mourn her.  St. Thomas, being in India, was unable to arrive in time, and her body was already in her tomb.  When he arrived and learned he was not able to see her, in tears he demanded the tomb to be opened so that he could venerate her one last time.  When the tomb was opened, it was discovered empty, just like her son's.  It is because of St. Thomas's late arrival that we are even aware that her body was assumed into Heaven.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Lynne on October 16, 2019, 05:42:56 PM
While not de fide, the Eastern tradition is that she did indeed die.  As the tradition goes, the Theotokos passed away, and all the apostles were called to come mourn her.  St. Thomas, being in India, was unable to arrive in time, and her body was already in her tomb.  When he arrived and learned he was not able to see her, in tears he demanded the tomb to be opened so that he could venerate her one last time.  When the tomb was opened, it was discovered empty, just like her son's.  It is because of St. Thomas's late arrival that we are even aware that her body was assumed into Heaven.

I thought the Eastern tradition was that she fell asleep?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Mother_of_God (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Mother_of_God)
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 16, 2019, 06:05:08 PM
While not de fide, the Eastern tradition is that she did indeed die.  As the tradition goes, the Theotokos passed away, and all the apostles were called to come mourn her.  St. Thomas, being in India, was unable to arrive in time, and her body was already in her tomb.  When he arrived and learned he was not able to see her, in tears he demanded the tomb to be opened so that he could venerate her one last time.  When the tomb was opened, it was discovered empty, just like her son's.  It is because of St. Thomas's late arrival that we are even aware that her body was assumed into Heaven.

I know the eastern tradition emphasizes her Dormition.  To use grass as an example, dormant grass is not dead. 

This general judgement thought sounds somewhat trivial, but I wanted to see if anyone had a comment.  There are other reasons why I do not believe she died, or will meet death.  Think of the criticism of Sr. faustina as a replacement for the virgin mary.  If Mary died, it seems a little easier for heretics to propose the idea of generational "mother"s" of god/virgin mary's", just as some modernists do not believe Jesus was "the Christ", only "a Christ". 

I recall an argument for her death was so that she could relate/partake in our Lord's death.  But, the problem with that is not only did Jesus suffer bodily death, he also suffered being "forsaken by the father", which seems to be comparable to a type of spiritual death.  Which, I imagine our Lord would have to suffer in order to ransom even those who for example commit sins that cry to heaven for vengeance or dare I say sins against the holy ghost.  Our lady suffers much spiritually, but not being forsaken.  If not comparably forsaken, why must she comparably suffer bodily death like our Lord?  It makes more sense to me that Our Lady doesn't suffer bodily death, or spiritual death(forsaken). 

Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: TheReturnofLive on October 16, 2019, 07:50:03 PM
While not de fide, the Eastern tradition is that she did indeed die.  As the tradition goes, the Theotokos passed away, and all the apostles were called to come mourn her.  St. Thomas, being in India, was unable to arrive in time, and her body was already in her tomb.  When he arrived and learned he was not able to see her, in tears he demanded the tomb to be opened so that he could venerate her one last time.  When the tomb was opened, it was discovered empty, just like her son's.  It is because of St. Thomas's late arrival that we are even aware that her body was assumed into Heaven.

I thought the Eastern tradition was that she fell asleep?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Mother_of_God (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Mother_of_God)

Well, now you are getting into the developments of Eastern and Western concepts of the Afterlife, which took marginally different turns.

From what a friend told me (so take that as you will), in the Greek New Testament, there are two separate words which refer to two different states - "Hades," or "the Underworld" which refers to the Pre-Judgment state of spiritual death after the person's demise, where the person is without body, and "Tartarus," or "Hell," which is the state of the spiritually dead person after the Last Judgment, body and soul.

In the Latin Vulgate, the word "Inferno" was used for both terms, and in theology, this naturally seems to have led to differences in both the East and West into the degree that both states are seen as similar to one another. There's a clearer differentiation between the two in the East, but the two are almost seen as synonymous in the West.

In Eastern Orthodoxy specifically, there's a very clear understanding of what "Tartarus" or "Hell" is; there really isn't a clear understanding of what "Hades" entails, because some icons or liturgical texts seem to suggest either that both states are really similar to each other despite being distinguished (eternal fire, torments by demons, unending pain), but in other places, there seems to be connotations and suggestions of "Soul Sleep" until the Last Judgment...

Which is what the title "Dormition" suggests; her soul going "dormant."

The West also had these suggestions, but they were clarified in a much more systematic way by the development of Limbo as distinguished from Hell, with Limbo retaining some level of those connotations of "Soul Sleep."

In one of the more traditional icons, we have Christ lifting up Adam and Eve from the tombs. The one bound in chains under the black void is death.

(https://i0.wp.com/www.orthodoxroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/resurrection2.jpg?ssl=1)

You'll notice that there are no clear suggestions or indications of fire or torturing, or Christ entering into a location in this icon. The Paschal Troparion, which is repeated endlessly during Easter in the Byzantine Liturgy, is "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs restoring life."

In Western equivalent artwork, you'll notice that Christ is either liberating the souls from Hell, or He is liberating them from a cave; suggesting he entered into Hell or Limbo to liberate the souls.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-aAXtxCNdsuk/VR2mi6812aI/AAAAAAAAK1M/epaUpEBjuK0/s1600/Cotton%2BMS%2BNero%2BC%2BIV%2Bf.24.png)

Same with the Last Judgment icons, where Hell and the dead rising from their tombs are seen as separate subjects.

(https://iconreader.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/mhs_sad_ostateczny_xvii_w_lipie_p.jpg)

Something still found in the West, although the West tends to interpret this as the souls reunifying with the bodies rather than the dead literally "reawakening" from the realm of the dead.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/25/8f/c1/258fc18792576ef335f4bafccd49a801.jpg)


However, at the same time, there do seem to be texts, images, and visions from Saints which suggest an immediate torturing and condemnation to Hell after death at the same time, many of such images I'm sure you are familiar with.

For example, the "Ladder of Divine Ascent" from Saint John Climacus, probably the most foundational spiritual book in the Eastern Tradition, and it's icon of demons dragging souls to hell off the ladder

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/The_Ladder_of_Divine_Ascent_Monastery_of_St_Catherine_Sinai_12th_century.jpg)

Or the similar "Death of St. Theodora"

(https://www.patristics.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/death_of_theodora.jpg)

And from the previous one, the theme of demons ready to drag souls into eternal torment after death seems to be a common one, and seemed to have been used by the Saints a lot.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Q865M-ljcGs/VnJTiGglOoI/AAAAAAAAMhg/XMY9szv5mSU/s1600/1telonismos.jpg)

Here's a video where an Eastern Orthodox individual looked through the events of Stalin's death as the demons approaching his bed to drag him unto Eternal Pain and Suffering.

Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: TheReturnofLive on October 16, 2019, 08:06:33 PM
In fact, one of the most contested theological controversies in Eastern Orthodoxy right now is the concept of Toll Houses, which has its suggestions, even in the sources I've shared - it functionally kind of acts as a Purgatory in a certain sense. It goes like this; for those sins which you have not repented of, the demons will accuse you of it, with different demons for different types of sins ("toll houses" or stopping points to get to Heaven) and if you didn't do enough in good works (prayer, penance, almsgiving) that outweigh those sins, the demons will grab you and lead you to eternal fire.

Now, obviously, it's contested due to a very clear presumption of eternal torment happening before the Last Judgment, it's suggestions of Pelagianism, and how ironic it is that Eastern Orthodoxy is, in some areas, developing a Pseudo-Purgatorial concept. But the main issue is obviously the first point.


Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 16, 2019, 08:13:13 PM
I am looking at the Assumption definition to see if I can find anything regarding Mary's dormition.  And, there is much.

From the definition of the Assumption:

"And, since he could adorn her with so great a gift as to keep here unharmed by the corruption of the tomb, it must be believed that he actually did this".

"most complete victory over sin and death, which are always joined together  in the writings of the apostles of the gentiles"

"joined in a secret manner with Jesus Christ"

"gained full triumph over sin and its consequences, has finally attained as the highest crown of her privileges, that she should be immune from the corruption of the tomb, and that in the same manner as her Son she would overcome death and be taken away soul and body to the supernal glory of heaven". 

This "in the same manner" may seem like a problematic phrase, but not if you consider it.  In the same manner obviously does not mean crucifixion/death visible before all the eyes of the world.  The definition says much about preservation from corruption of the tomb.  Christ was buried in a tomb, and the stone was rolled over and then away to the testament of the apostles.  So, Christ gave up the ghost for all to see, and he was covered by a stone/earth. 

Mary on the other hand "fell asleep".  It is a corporal mercy of the church to "bury the dead".  When Mary fell asleep, she was not buried, because she was not in need of mercy in this regard.  Sin and death are always together.  Mary did not sin, and Mary did not die.  I think she was assumed as the definition says "in a secret manner".  That means Mary fell asleep, and there is no earthly(apostolic or not) witness of a death. "In like manner" must mean as what directly follows, and only that, that she rose into heaven body and spirit like Christ unlike the rest of creation which must wait until the end of the world/the general judgment.  Mary was not covered with earth, and she does not give up the ghost.  Christ was covered with earth, and he gave up the ghost.  Mary was covered with a cloud/overshadowed by the holy ghost.  "In like manner" refers only to the unity of the body and spirit into heaven, which is the dogma.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 16, 2019, 08:18:49 PM
I have a new battle cry.  "Mary no die; you no rise"!
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: TheReturnofLive on October 16, 2019, 08:21:02 PM
Mary on the other hand "fell asleep".  It is a corporal mercy of the church to "bury the dead".  When Mary fell asleep, she was not buried, because she was not in need of mercy in this regard.  Sin and death are always together.  Mary did not sin, and Mary did not die.  I think she was assumed as the definition says "in a secret manner".  That means Mary fell asleep, and there is no earthly(apostolic or not) witness of a death. "In like manner" must mean as what directly follows, and only that, that she rose into heaven body and spirit like Christ unlike the rest of creation which must wait until the end of the world/the general judgment.  Mary was not covered with earth, and she does not give up the ghost.  Christ was covered with earth, and he gave up the ghost.  Mary was covered with a cloud/overshadowed by the holy ghost.  "In like manner" refers only to the unity of the body and spirit into heaven, which is the dogma.

While I've said what I wanted to say, I want to point out that the Dormition doesn't mean that Mary wasn't bodily assumed into Heaven - it means that before that happened, she died, was burried, and then was Resurrected by Christ body and soul and taken into Heaven - "Assumed"

And you can actually visit the Tomb of the Virgin Mary in Jerusalem, which Eastern Christians recognize, traditionally, as her burial site; her tomb is empty though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_the_Virgin_Mary

The Western Assumption dogma doesn't answer the question of whether she died or not, but like the Dormition, claims she was Assumed into Heaven body and soul.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: aquinas138 on October 17, 2019, 11:56:23 AM
Mary on the other hand "fell asleep".  It is a corporal mercy of the church to "bury the dead"...

You are drawing a false distinction between death and "falling asleep." They mean one and the same thing. The Greek word for "Dormition" is κοίμησις (kimisis). It is the source of our word "cemetery" and is clearly used to mean death in Ecclesiasticus 46:19 and 48:13.

The immortalist position has to ignore the entire liturgical, iconographic, and artistic tradition of the Church until about the 16th century. Even Western artists depicted the Virgin's death throughout the Middle Ages. She died, was (briefly) buried, suffered no corruption, and was taken body and soul into heaven.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 17, 2019, 12:59:23 PM
Mary on the other hand "fell asleep".  It is a corporal mercy of the church to "bury the dead"...

You are drawing a false distinction between death and "falling asleep." They mean one and the same thing. The Greek word for "Dormition" is κοίμησις (kimisis). It is the source of our word "cemetery" and is clearly used to mean death in Ecclesiasticus 46:19 and 48:13.

The immortalist position has to ignore the entire liturgical, iconographic, and artistic tradition of the Church until about the 16th century. Even Western artists depicted the Virgin's death throughout the Middle Ages. She died, was (briefly) buried, suffered no corruption, and was taken body and soul into heaven.

I then correct myself. In the definition of the assumption there is not found the phrase "falling asleep".  So, neither will I use it.  It is really simple, it is a corporal work of mercy to bury the dead.  If mary was buried, it would be because she was in need of corporal mercy.  Which is not the case, because she is assumed into heaven.  And, this is significant, because there is no church of Mary.  There are no sacraments of Mary.  Christ needed to be buried in order to fulfill all things.  Mary does not need to fulfill as Christ, she is full of grace.  Mary has no need to be buried.  And, if there is no need, then she was not, and it is to her glory that she would not be.  This is unlike our Lady observing the jewish purification, in which there was a need, as Christ's time had not come, and was at that time dependent on Mary and Joseph.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: aquinas138 on October 17, 2019, 01:09:28 PM
Mary on the other hand "fell asleep".  It is a corporal mercy of the church to "bury the dead"...

You are drawing a false distinction between death and "falling asleep." They mean one and the same thing. The Greek word for "Dormition" is κοίμησις (kimisis). It is the source of our word "cemetery" and is clearly used to mean death in Ecclesiasticus 46:19 and 48:13.

The immortalist position has to ignore the entire liturgical, iconographic, and artistic tradition of the Church until about the 16th century. Even Western artists depicted the Virgin's death throughout the Middle Ages. She died, was (briefly) buried, suffered no corruption, and was taken body and soul into heaven.

I then correct myself. In the definition of the assumption there is not found the phrase "falling asleep".  So, neither will I use it.  It is really simple, it is a corporal work of mercy to bury the dead.  If mary was buried, it would be because she was in need of corporal mercy.  Which is not the case, because she is assumed into heaven.  And, this is significant, because there is no church of Mary.  There are no sacraments of Mary.  Christ needed to be buried in order to fulfill all things.  Mary does not need to fulfill as Christ, she is full of grace.  Mary has no need to be buried.  And, if there is no need, then she was not, and it is to her glory that she would not be.  This is unlike our Lady observing the jewish purification, in which there was a need, as Christ's time had not come, and was at that time dependent on Mary and Joseph.

The immortalist position is based entirely on speculation. It ignores 16 CENTURIES of Church tradition, including the stories in the liturgical services of the Eastern Churches explicitly talking about her funeral and entombment. It is an error. A tolerated error, but an error.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 17, 2019, 01:13:40 PM
To follow on my use of the corporal work of mercy bury the dead as it regards our lady, according to the thinking of those who say she died and was buried, we should likewise pray for mercy to be had on her soul as we would pray for the living and the dead.  But, that is clearly absurd.  Mary is full of grace.  Mary is spouse of the Holy Ghost.  Is there even a prayer remotely as such for Mary found in tradition?  Why would there be a separation in corporal and spiritual matters in this regard?  It is obvious.  Mary was not buried.  If she was not buried, she did not die.  "Full triumph over sin and its consequences(death)" is in the assumption definition itself. 
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: aquinas138 on October 17, 2019, 01:24:05 PM
To follow on my use of the corporal work of mercy bury the dead as it regards our lady, according to the thinking of those who say she died and was buried, we should likewise pray for mercy to be had on her as we would pray for the living and the dead.  But, that is clearly absurd.  Mary is ever virgin.  Mary is spouse of the Holy Ghost.  Is there even a prayer "for Mary" found in tradition?  Why would there be a separation in corporal and spiritual matters in this regard?  It is obvious and simple.  Mary was not buried.  If she was not buried, she did not die.  "Full triumph over sin and its consequences(death)" is in the assumption definition itself.

In fact there is a very conspicuous prayer "for Mary" if you broaden your search beyond recent-century Roman-rite speculation. The anaphora (the analogue of the Roman Canon) of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom prays explicitly for the Virgin and all the saints:

"Moreover, we offer you this spiritual sacrifice for those departed in faith: the forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every just spirit brought to perfection in faith, especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary."

Note that this includes the Virgin among those "departed in faith."
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 17, 2019, 01:50:09 PM
To follow on my use of the corporal work of mercy bury the dead as it regards our lady, according to the thinking of those who say she died and was buried, we should likewise pray for mercy to be had on her as we would pray for the living and the dead.  But, that is clearly absurd.  Mary is ever virgin.  Mary is spouse of the Holy Ghost.  Is there even a prayer "for Mary" found in tradition?  Why would there be a separation in corporal and spiritual matters in this regard?  It is obvious and simple.  Mary was not buried.  If she was not buried, she did not die.  "Full triumph over sin and its consequences(death)" is in the assumption definition itself.

In fact there is a very conspicuous prayer "for Mary" if you broaden your search beyond recent-century Roman-rite speculation. The anaphora (the analogue of the Roman Canon) of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom prays explicitly for the Virgin and all the saints:

"Moreover, we offer you this spiritual sacrifice for those departed in faith: the forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every just spirit brought to perfection in faith, especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary."

Note that this includes the Virgin among those "departed in faith."

Can you provide a western example? 
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 17, 2019, 02:05:05 PM
At some point, like right now, we are going to have to stop using the schismatic and heretical easterners as a guide and certainly not as a rule in this discussion.  I already stopped by no longer using the term "falling asleep".  The orthodox do not even believe in the assumption dogma or the immaculate conception.   So, I am not surprised that they pray "for" the virgin mary in their liturgy.    In fact, it makes perfect sense that they do.  They are heretics.   
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: aquinas138 on October 17, 2019, 02:05:42 PM
At some point, like right now, we are going to have to stop using the schismatic and heretical easterners as a guide and certainly not as a rule in this discussion.  I already stopped by no longer using the term "falling asleep".  The orthodox do not even believe in the assumption dogma or the immaculate conception.   So, I am not surprised that they pray "for" the virgin mary in their liturgy.    In fact, it makes perfect sense that they do.  They are heretics.   
To follow on my use of the corporal work of mercy bury the dead as it regards our lady, according to the thinking of those who say she died and was buried, we should likewise pray for mercy to be had on her as we would pray for the living and the dead.  But, that is clearly absurd.  Mary is ever virgin.  Mary is spouse of the Holy Ghost.  Is there even a prayer "for Mary" found in tradition?  Why would there be a separation in corporal and spiritual matters in this regard?  It is obvious and simple.  Mary was not buried.  If she was not buried, she did not die.  "Full triumph over sin and its consequences(death)" is in the assumption definition itself.

In fact there is a very conspicuous prayer "for Mary" if you broaden your search beyond recent-century Roman-rite speculation. The anaphora (the analogue of the Roman Canon) of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom prays explicitly for the Virgin and all the saints:

"Moreover, we offer you this spiritual sacrifice for those departed in faith: the forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every just spirit brought to perfection in faith, especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary."

Note that this includes the Virgin among those "departed in faith."

Can you provide a western example?

I cannot, which is not to say none exist (they may or may not, they may have at one time or maybe never did), but this portion of the Divine Liturgy of John Chrysostom is quite ancient, and has parallels in the liturgies of the other Eastern Churches.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: aquinas138 on October 17, 2019, 02:07:08 PM
At some point, like right now, we are going to have to stop using the schismatic and heretical easterners as a guide and certainly not as a rule in this discussion.  I already stopped by no longer using the term "falling asleep".  The orthodox do not even believe in the assumption dogma or the immaculate conception.   So, I am not surprised that they pray "for" the virgin mary in their liturgy.    In fact, it makes perfect sense that they do.  They are heretics.

The translation was taken purposely from Byzantine Catholic sources. And Rome was in communion with Christians praying those prayers until the Great Schism. This is not a post-schism development.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: sedmohradsko on October 17, 2019, 02:27:20 PM


I thought the Eastern tradition was that she fell asleep?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Mother_of_God (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Mother_of_God)

That's what we call it, but it's a euphemism.  Like how St. Paul refers to people who have fallen asleep in the Lord.  He was speaking of physical death.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 17, 2019, 02:37:51 PM
At some point, like right now, we are going to have to stop using the schismatic and heretical easterners as a guide and certainly not as a rule in this discussion.  I already stopped by no longer using the term "falling asleep".  The orthodox do not even believe in the assumption dogma or the immaculate conception.   So, I am not surprised that they pray "for" the virgin mary in their liturgy.    In fact, it makes perfect sense that they do.  They are heretics.

The translation was taken purposely from Byzantine Catholic sources. And Rome was in communion with Christians praying those prayers until the Great Schism. This is not a post-schism development.


Do you think that there exists pre-schism originals of this liturgy/prayer?  I don't.  Or, are we trusting in the authenticity of the eastern copies/transcriptions?  Do we trust their scriptures?  No.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: sedmohradsko on October 17, 2019, 02:46:07 PM
Mary on the other hand "fell asleep".  It is a corporal mercy of the church to "bury the dead".  When Mary fell asleep, she was not buried, because she was not in need of mercy in this regard.  Sin and death are always together.  Mary did not sin, and Mary did not die.  I think she was assumed as the definition says "in a secret manner".  That means Mary fell asleep, and there is no earthly(apostolic or not) witness of a death. "In like manner" must mean as what directly follows, and only that, that she rose into heaven body and spirit like Christ unlike the rest of creation which must wait until the end of the world/the general judgment.  Mary was not covered with earth, and she does not give up the ghost.  Christ was covered with earth, and he gave up the ghost.  Mary was covered with a cloud/overshadowed by the holy ghost.  "In like manner" refers only to the unity of the body and spirit into heaven, which is the dogma.

Sorry, I think you're grasping at straws.  The Church does not officially teach that she died or that she didn't, so Catholics are free to believe either.  According to tradition, Mary was laid in a tomb.  So the apostles at least thought she was dead, even if she was only asleep in reality.  Neither Mary nor Christ were covered in earth - they were lain in tombs hewn from stone.  If Mary could lie asleep and appear dead to all around, one could then say that Christ did the same, not really dying, but merely sleeping for a while.  You're hoisting speculations to the status of doctrine.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: sedmohradsko on October 17, 2019, 02:52:56 PM
At some point, like right now, we are going to have to stop using the schismatic and heretical easterners as a guide and certainly not as a rule in this discussion.  I already stopped by no longer using the term "falling asleep".  The orthodox do not even believe in the assumption dogma or the immaculate conception.   So, I am not surprised that they pray "for" the virgin mary in their liturgy.    In fact, it makes perfect sense that they do.  They are heretics.

The liturgies of the Orthodox churches are Catholic liturgies.  They were formed in the context of Catholicism, and their words are Catholic.  At this point, you are acting like a Protestant who ignores all the history prior to your self-created theology, and has the audacity to call that which pre-existed it heresy, because it doesn't agree with what you are trying to postulate.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: aquinas138 on October 17, 2019, 02:54:57 PM
At some point, like right now, we are going to have to stop using the schismatic and heretical easterners as a guide and certainly not as a rule in this discussion.  I already stopped by no longer using the term "falling asleep".  The orthodox do not even believe in the assumption dogma or the immaculate conception.   So, I am not surprised that they pray "for" the virgin mary in their liturgy.    In fact, it makes perfect sense that they do.  They are heretics.

The translation was taken purposely from Byzantine Catholic sources. And Rome was in communion with Christians praying those prayers until the Great Schism. This is not a post-schism development.


Do you think that there exists pre-schism originals of this liturgy/prayer?  I don't.  Or, are we trusting in the authenticity of the eastern copies/transcriptions?  Do we trust their scriptures?  No.

You don't based on what, exactly? You don't like the data? And the Slavonic version of Chrysostom says the same thing "for," and it was translated before the Schism by saints. The existence of these prayers is so well-known that Reformers attempted to use it to argue that the invocation of saints was not believed in the early Church.

And what do you mean "do we trust their scriptures"? We have the same scriptures.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 17, 2019, 04:38:57 PM
At some point, like right now, we are going to have to stop using the schismatic and heretical easterners as a guide and certainly not as a rule in this discussion.  I already stopped by no longer using the term "falling asleep".  The orthodox do not even believe in the assumption dogma or the immaculate conception.   So, I am not surprised that they pray "for" the virgin mary in their liturgy.    In fact, it makes perfect sense that they do.  They are heretics.

The liturgies of the Orthodox churches are Catholic liturgies.  They were formed in the context of Catholicism, and their words are Catholic.  At this point, you are acting like a Protestant who ignores all the history prior to your self-created theology, and has the audacity to call that which pre-existed it heresy, because it doesn't agree with what you are trying to postulate.

The novus ordo is also formed in the context of catholicism.  Liturgy is not infallible.  And, denial of the assumption and the immaculate conception is heresy, which was the focus of my use of the word. 
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: sedmohradsko on October 17, 2019, 04:46:02 PM
The novus ordo is also formed in the context of catholicism.  Liturgy is not dogma.  And, denial of the assumption and the immaculate conception is heresy, which was the context of its application.

The assumption does not mean that Mary didn't die, only that her body was taken into heaven at the end of her earthly life.  The immaculate conception does not demand that Mary not die, only that her death could not have been a consequence of original sin, since she didn't have it.  The Eastern understanding in no way denies these doctrines.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 17, 2019, 04:47:17 PM
I would like to get back to the other subject I started discussing in this thread, and that is the general judgment.  Who here present believes that there are other faithful departed whose bodies are united with their souls and in heaven?  And, what is your reasoning?  I contend that aside from the virgin mary and Jesus, there are none.  And, their will be none until the end of the world.  Can I get an amen?   
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 17, 2019, 04:52:38 PM
The novus ordo is also formed in the context of catholicism.  Liturgy is not dogma.  And, denial of the assumption and the immaculate conception is heresy, which was the context of its application.

The assumption does not mean that Mary didn't die, only that her body was taken into heaven at the end of her earthly life.  The immaculate conception does not demand that Mary not die, only that her death could not have been a consequence of original sin, since she didn't have it.  The Eastern understanding in no way denies these doctrines.

The eastern schismatic orthodox do not believe that the assumption and the immaculate conception as catholics require them to be believed are binding dogmatic teaching.  For them, it is debatable theology.  Heresy.  Such will hold no sway if I have any say on particulars proximate to such discussions, such as this current one about the end of Mary's earthly life. 
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: TheReturnofLive on October 17, 2019, 07:46:00 PM
The first immediate Western example that comes to mind is the Mosaic of the Dormition in Santa Maria Maggiore, completed in 1296, 250 years after the East-West schism, in Rome, Italy

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lstundWOwv1qghk7bo1_1280.jpg)

If it's such a closed issue with the West being contaminated by those nasty Easterners, how do you explain this?
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: TheReturnofLive on October 17, 2019, 07:56:27 PM
The novus ordo is also formed in the context of catholicism.  Liturgy is not dogma.  And, denial of the assumption and the immaculate conception is heresy, which was the context of its application.

The assumption does not mean that Mary didn't die, only that her body was taken into heaven at the end of her earthly life.  The immaculate conception does not demand that Mary not die, only that her death could not have been a consequence of original sin, since she didn't have it.  The Eastern understanding in no way denies these doctrines.

The eastern schismatic orthodox do not believe that the assumption and the immaculate conception as catholics require them to be believed are binding dogmatic teaching.  For them, it is debatable theology.  Heresy.  Such will hold no sway if I have any say on particulars proximate to such discussions, such as this current one about the end of Mary's earthly life.

Well, in Rome, the Immaculate Conception wasn't binding dogmatic teaching till the 19th century; even though many Catholics like to contest the following, because they imagine that Church Fathers are incapable of error (something easily refutable if you've actually taken the time to look into the writings of St. Ambrose (non-Trinitarian Baptism works), St. John Chrysostom (no sins are remitted in Baptism), St. Irenaeus (Believing that demons and humans can copulate), St. Gregory of Nyssa (universalism), etc.) there's loads of evidence that St. Thomas Aquinas rejected it.

As for the Assumption, as I've stated before (unless you are choosing to ignore me), it's actually a closed issue in the Eastern Orthodox but an open issue in Rome. In Eastern Orthodoxy, you are not allowed to believe that Mary didn't die, but you have to believe that she was taken up Body and Soul into Heaven. There's basically no evidence of her not dying from Tradition; the fact that there's a pilgrimage site to her literal tomb in Jerusalem that Christians from around the world visited for hundreds of years kind of takes a bite out of your argument as that Tradition of her death being a novelty. You can visit her tomb; but her body isn't there.


In Roman Catholicism, it's an open issue that people are allowed to believe either way. I've yet to see a dogmatic, binding authority that mandates that the Roman Catholic Faithful have to believe she didn't die.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Non Nobis on October 17, 2019, 09:57:09 PM
Christ died and was buried, incorrupt, and rose from the dead by His own power, and of course we do not pray for Him.  It seems quite fitting to me that His Mother the Virgin Mary died, and that she was carried, body and waiting soul then united, into heaven. I've seen both Western and Eastern art showing an open tomb.

The Virgin Mary could have been dead 3 days, like her Son.  This is what Venerable Mary of Agreda (only fallible, of course) depicts in The Mystical City of God.  I have an ulterior motive here.  If She died then, it would probably have been on my birthday.  :D

(https://i0.wp.com/illustratedprayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/assumption-of-the-virgin-giaquinto-corrado-1740s.jpg?w=1384&ssl=1)
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 17, 2019, 10:11:13 PM
If I was more of a rottweiler, I never would have tolerated such a response to my argument from aquinas138 to go properly unanswered for so long.  Your byzantine liturgy example is comparable to how the sedevacantists interpret "una cum" in the roman liturgy.  It simply means "we pray for the pope" as opposed to its literal meaning, obviously.  Meaning, ambiguity is present in the catholic church.  Your byzantine liturgy example in my opinion simply means, we beseech the intercession of these faithful departed, particularly because it mentions "and every spirit brought to perfection in faith", as opposed to we intercede for them.  Such is a confession of their sanctity and conviction that they are in heaven, and is not an example of what I was asking, which you admit to being unable to find in the west.  Well, I must break it to you, you have doubtfully found it in the catholic east.  I think it is like I initially said, a doubtful translation.  Yes, they are faithful departed, but they are "perfected in faith", and we are not interceding for them, we are seeking their intercession on what would obviously be the behalf of Christ, whose merits facilitate such. 

Because we believe they are in heaven, they have no need of prayers of mercy for them.  You must at least admit that.  If you confess someone to be a saint, especially the virgin mary, whose body is already in heaven, such a person is not in need of mercy prayers.  And, the argument of mine is prayer for living and the dead as a mercy.  Mary is not in need of that just as she is not in need of burial.  That is a mirror example of the works of mercy.   I am not going to let your off topic example distract from my valid argument.  My argument drawing from the corporal and spiritual works of mercy that the virgin was not buried and did not die is sound, and your counter is off the mark.  And, such an argument has much more strength than images, which have not mouths to speak, ears to hear, or eyes to see.

Even when one is not declared a saint, the cultus of prayers that develop around such a person are to seek grace from as opposed to for such a saint declared by the church or not.  But, that is not a mercy, for they are already in heaven, just not declared by the church.  The declaration doesn't place them in heaven, it simply acknowledges they are in heaven, as opposed to mercy prayers for one who is in purgatory.  Unless perhaps you want to argue that the spiritual work of mercy pray for living and the dead is not directed in a purgatorial sense.  Which is it?
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 17, 2019, 10:35:11 PM
Christ died and was buried, incorrupt, and rose from the dead by His own power, and of course we do not pray for Him.  It seems quite fitting to me that His Mother the Virgin Mary died, and that she was carried, body and waiting soul then united, into heaven. I've seen both Western and Eastern art showing an open tomb.

The Virgin Mary could have been dead 3 days, like her Son.  This is what Venerable Mary of Agreda (only fallible, of course) depicts in The Mystical City of God.  I have an ulterior motive here.  If She died then, it would probably have been on my birthday.  :D


The difference is that Christ must be buried in order to rise and fulfill all things unto salvation.  Mary does not.  And, it is therefore not to her glory.  It is to her glory that she not be buried.  It is more to her glory as one who has no stain of sin to not be buried, just as it is false to pray that God have mercy on her soul.  Her soul is full of grace.  Such beliefs run counter to the truth we know about her.  It does not make sense for Mary to be buried.  And, the doctrine of the Catholic church is clear that Christ judges all at the end of the world when bodies are resurrected as a result of Him.  Mary does not judge them.  Christ alone is the judge.  Likewise, there is no resurrection in Mary, because Mary never resurrected.  Mary was assumed into heaven.  Mary was not buried, as a result of her victory over sin and death merited by Christ our Savior.  Iconography is simply not a source of divine revelation.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: mikemac on October 18, 2019, 12:16:13 AM
I would like to get back to the other subject I started discussing in this thread, and that is the general judgment.  Who here present believes that there are other faithful departed whose bodies are united with their souls and in heaven?  And, what is your reasoning?  I contend that aside from the virgin mary and Jesus, there are none.  And, their will be none until the end of the world.  Can I get an amen?

Elias was taken up to Heaven body and soul in the fiery chariot.

4th Book of Kings (2 Kings) Chapter 2 (http://www.drbo.org/chapter/12002.htm)
Quote
[11] And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven. [12] And Eliseus saw him, and cried: My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the driver thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own garments, and rent them in two pieces.

I believe Henoch was taken up to Heaven body and soul also.

Hebrews Chapter 11 (http://www.drbo.org/chapter/65011.htm)
Quote
[5] By faith Henoch was translated, that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had testimony that he pleased God.

I think that is why it is commonly understood that Henoch and Elias will be the two witnesses of Apocalypse 11 (http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73011.htm).
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: aquinas138 on October 18, 2019, 01:41:12 AM
If I was more of a rottweiler, I never would have tolerated such a response to my argument from aquinas138 to go properly unanswered for so long.  Your byzantine liturgy example is comparable to how the sedevacantists interpret "una cum" in the roman liturgy.  It simply means "we pray for the pope" as opposed to its literal meaning, obviously.  Meaning, ambiguity is present in the catholic church.  Your byzantine liturgy example in my opinion simply means, we beseech the intercession of these faithful departed, particularly because it mentions "and every spirit brought to perfection in faith", as opposed to we intercede for them.  Such is a confession of their sanctity and conviction that they are in heaven, and is not an example of what I was asking, which you admit to being unable to find in the west.  Well, I must break it to you, you have doubtfully found it in the catholic east.  I think it is like I initially said, a doubtful translation.  Yes, they are faithful departed, but they are "perfected in faith", and we are not interceding for them, we are seeking their intercession on what would obviously be the behalf of Christ, whose merits facilitate such.

Because we believe they are in heaven, they have no need of prayers of mercy for them.  You must at least admit that.  If you confess someone to be a saint, especially the virgin mary, whose body is already in heaven, such a person is not in need of mercy prayers.  And, the argument of mine is prayer for living and the dead as a mercy.  Mary is not in need of that just as she is not in need of burial.  That is a mirror example of the works of mercy.   I am not going to let your off topic example distract from my valid argument.  My argument drawing from the corporal and spiritual works of mercy that the virgin was not buried and did not die is sound, and your counter is off the mark.  And, such an argument has much more strength than images, which have not mouths to speak, ears to hear, or eyes to see.

Even when one is not declared a saint, the cultus of prayers that develop around such a person are to seek grace from as opposed to for such a saint declared by the church or not.  But, that is not a mercy, for they are already in heaven, just not declared by the church.  The declaration doesn't place them in heaven, it simply acknowledges they are in heaven, as opposed to mercy prayers for one who is in purgatory.  Unless perhaps you want to argue that the spiritual work of mercy pray for living and the dead is not directed in a purgatorial sense.  Which is it?

We are just wasting each other's time. You discount any contrary evidence at all in favor of your own speculation. Byzantine liturgy? Clearly an error (an assessment based on nothing)! The artistic history of East and West? Art doesn't matter! I won't disrupt your amazing analogy between the spiritual and corporal works of mercy anymore. You can go on speculating away actual Tradition and replacing it with the "tradition" you judge to be so much more appropriate.

But I will offer one bit of parting evidence for the death of the Virgin from a Western source, an ancient collect for the feast of the Assumption:

Quote
Veneranda nobis, Dómine, hujus diei festívitas opem cónferat salutárem, in qua sancta Dei Génitrix mortem subiit temporálem, nec tamen mortis néxibus déprimi pótuit, quae Filium tuum Dóminum nostrum Jesum Christum de se génuit incarnátum: Qui tecum.

May the venerable festivity of this day confer upon us, O Lord, (Thy) saving aid, on which the holy Mother of God underwent temporal death, and yet could not be held down by the bonds of death, even She that begot of Herself Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnate. Who with Thee...

This collect was used throughout the Middle Ages in many Western uses, and found in similar form at least as far back as the Gregorian Sacramentary. It remained in the traditional Dominican Rite, though the Novus Ordo Dominican Rite scrapped it. And in case you're wondering: the traditional collect used at Rome (NOT the one created in 1950) mentions neither her death NOR her Assumption.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on October 18, 2019, 01:50:17 AM
Mikemac - That certainly is a theory of the two witnesses.  However, I am reading the footnote in my douay from chapter 2.  And, it says that "by heaven here is meant the air, the lowest of the heavenly regions".  Perhaps it is not the same heaven.

Are not the two witnesses to be slain at the end of the world?  Not even Christ dies twice.  Hence, enoch and elijah do not have their glorified bodies.  One reason it seems to me that God might do such as thing, is to present enoch and elijah as the arch type for those not yet baptized, though not cut off from grace/salvation.  Because, enoch and elijah were not baptized, yet at the end of the world they will be witnesses unto heaven, when the church is the seat of antichrist.  F**neyites, that one is for you.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Xavier on October 18, 2019, 01:51:52 AM
St. John Damascene, whom His Holiness Pope Ven. Pius XII declares Doctor of the Assumption/Dormition, says She died/fell asleep (Hers was a sweet sleep, such as Eve would have had, before being translated into heaven), St. Alphonsus, says She fell asleep. Pope Pius XII himself, although H.H. did not dogmatically define it either way, in Munificentissimus Deus, strongly implies the Blessed Mother reposed.

To cite paras 17 and 18, "17. In the liturgical books which deal with the feast either of the dormition or of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin there are expressions that agree in testifying that, when the Virgin Mother of God passed from this earthly exile to heaven, what happened to her sacred body was, by the decree of divine Providence, in keeping with the dignity of the Mother of the Word Incarnate, and with the other privileges she had been accorded. Thus, to cite an illustrious example, this is set forth in that sacramentary which Adrian I, our predecessor of immortal memory, sent to the Emperor Charlemagne. These words are found in this volume: "Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself."(11)

18. What is here indicated in that sobriety characteristic of the Roman liturgy is presented more clearly and completely in other ancient liturgical books. To take one as an example, the Gallican sacramentary designates this privilege of Mary's as "an ineffable mystery all the more worthy of praise as the Virgin's Assumption is something unique among men." And, in the Byzantine liturgy, not only is the Virgin Mary's bodily Assumption connected time and time again with the dignity of the Mother of God, but also with the other privileges, and in particular with the virginal motherhood granted her by a singular decree of God's Providence. "God, the King of the universe, has granted you favors that surpass nature. As he kept you a virgin in childbirth, thus he has kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb."(12)" http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus.html

St. Alphonsus: "St. John saw Mary represented in that woman, clothed with the sun, who held the moon under her feet. And a great sign appeared in Heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. [3] Interpreters explain the moon to signify the goods of this world, which like her, are uncertain and unchangeable. Mary never had these goods in her heart, but always despised them and trampled them under her feet; living in this world as a solitary turtle in a desert, never allowing her affection to center itself in any earthly thing; so that of her it was aid: The voice of the turtle is heard in our land. [4] And elsewhere: Who is she that goeth up by the desert? [5] When the Abbot Rupert says, "Thus didst thou go by the desert; that is, having a solitary soul." Mary, then, having lived always and in all things detached from the earth, and united to God alone, death was not bitter, but on the contrary, very sweet and dear to her; since it united her more closely to God in Heaven, by an eternal bond.

II. Peace of mind renders the death of the just precious. Sins committed during life are the worms that so cruelly torment and gnaw the hearts of poor dying sinners, who, about to appear before the Divine tribunal, see themselves at that moment surrounded by their sins, which terrify them, and cry out according to St. Bernard, "we are thy works; we will not abandon thee." Mary certainly could not be tormented at death by any remorse of conscience, for she was always pure, and always free from the least shade of actual or Original Sin; so much so, that of her it was aid, Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee. [6] from the moment that she had the use of reason, that is, from the first moment  of her Immaculate Conception in the womb of St. Anne, she began to love God with all her strength, and. continue do so, always advancing more and more throughout her whole life in love and perfection. And all her thoughts, desires, and affections were of and for God alone; she never uttered a word, made a movement, cast a glance or breathed, but for God and His glory ; and never departed a step or detached herself for a single moment from the Divine love. Ah, how did all the lovely virtue that she had practiced during life surround her blessed bed in the happy hour of her death! That faith so constant; that loving confidence in God; that unconquerable patience in the midst of so many sufferings; that humility in the midst of so many privileges; that modesty; that meekness; that tender compassion for souls; that insatiable zeal for the glory of God; and, above all, that most perfect love towards Him, with that entire conformity to the Divine will: all, in a word, surrounded her and consoling her, said: "We are thy works; we will not abandon thee." Our Lady and Mother, we are all daughters of thy beautiful heart; now that thou a leaving this miserable life, we will not leave thee; we also will go, and be thy eternal accompaniment and honor in Paradise, where, by our means thou wilt reign as Queen of all men and of all Angels.

III. Finally, the certainty of eternal salvation renders death sweet. Death is called a passage; for by death we pass from a short to an eternal life. And as the dread of those is indeed great who die in doubt of their salvation, and who approach the solemn moment with welI-grounded fear of passing into eternal death; thus on the other hand, the joy of the Saints is indeed great at the close of life, hoping with some security to go and possess God in Heaven. A nun of the Order of St. Teresa, when the doctor announced to her her approaching death, was so filled with joy that she exclaimed, " O how is it, sir, that you announce to me such welcome news, and demand no fee?" St. Laurence Justinian, being at the point of death, and perceiving his servants weeping round him, said: "Away, away with your tears; this is no time to mourn." Go elsewhere to weep; if you would remain with me, rejoice, as I rejoice, in seeing the gates of Heaven open to me, that I may be united to my God. Thus also a St. Peter of Alcantara, a St. Aloysius Gonzaga, and so many other Saints, on hearing their death was at hand, burst forth into exclamations of joy and gladness. And yet they were not certain of being in possession of Divine grace, nor were they secure of their own sanctity, as Mary was.

But what joy must the Divine Mother have felt in receiving the news of her approaching death! She who had the fullest certainty of the possession of Divine grace especially after the Angel Gabriel had assured her that she was full of it, and that she already possessed God.  Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee . . . thou hast found grace. [7] And well did she herself know that her heart was continually burning with Divine love; so that as Bernardine de Bustis says, " Mary, by a singular privilege granted to no other Saint, loved, and was always actually loving God, in every moment of her life with such ardor, that St. Bernard declares, it required a continued miracle to preserve her life in the midst of such flames."

Of Mary it had already been asked in the sacred canticles, Who is she that goeth up by the desert, as a pillar smoke, of aromatical spices, of myrrh, and frankincense, allthe powders of the perfumer? [8] Her entire mortification typified by the myrrh, her fervent prayers signified by the incense, and all her holy virtues united to her perfect love for God, kindled in her a flame so great that her beautiful soul, wholly devoted to and consumed, by Divine love, arose continually to God as a pillar of smoke, breathing forth on every side a most sweet odor. "Such smoke, nay even such a pillar of smoke," says the Abbot Rupert, "Hast thou, O Blessed Mary, breathed forth a sweet odor to the Most High." Eustachius expresses it in still stronger terms: "A pillar of smoke, because burning interiorly as a holocaust with the flame of Divine love, she sent forth a most sweet odor."  As the loving Virgin lived, so did she died. As Divine love gave her life, so did it cause her death; for the Doctors and holy Fathers of the Church generally say she died of no other infirmity than pure love; St. Ildephonsus says that Mary either ought not to die, or only die of love." http://www.catholictradition.org/Assumption/assumption2.htm
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: mikemac on October 18, 2019, 07:03:16 AM
Mikemac - That certainly is a theory of the two witnesses.  However, I am reading the footnote in my douay from chapter 2.  And, it says that "by heaven here is meant the air, the lowest of the heavenly regions".  Perhaps it is not the same heaven.

Are not the two witnesses to be slain at the end of the world?  Not even Christ dies twice.  Hence, enoch and elijah do not have their glorified bodies.  One reason it seems to me that God might do such as thing, is to present enoch and elijah as the arch type for those not yet baptized, though not cut off from grace/salvation.  Because, enoch and elijah were not baptized, yet at the end of the world they will be witnesses unto heaven, when the church is the seat of antichrist.  F**neyites, that one is for you.

Scripture says both Hennoch and Elias didn't die.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Lynne on November 14, 2019, 05:51:20 PM

But I will offer one bit of parting evidence for the death of the Virgin from a Western source, an ancient collect for the feast of the Assumption:

Quote
Veneranda nobis, Dómine, hujus diei festívitas opem cónferat salutárem, in qua sancta Dei Génitrix mortem subiit temporálem, nec tamen mortis néxibus déprimi pótuit, quae Filium tuum Dóminum nostrum Jesum Christum de se génuit incarnátum: Qui tecum.

May the venerable festivity of this day confer upon us, O Lord, (Thy) saving aid, on which the holy Mother of God underwent temporal death, and yet could not be held down by the bonds of death, even She that begot of Herself Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnate. Who with Thee...

This collect was used throughout the Middle Ages in many Western uses, and found in similar form at least as far back as the Gregorian Sacramentary. It remained in the traditional Dominican Rite, though the Novus Ordo Dominican Rite scrapped it. And in case you're wondering: the traditional collect used at Rome (NOT the one created in 1950) mentions neither her death NOR her Assumption.

Where would one find that collect?
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: aquinas138 on November 15, 2019, 12:01:52 AM

But I will offer one bit of parting evidence for the death of the Virgin from a Western source, an ancient collect for the feast of the Assumption:

Quote
Veneranda nobis, Dómine, hujus diei festívitas opem cónferat salutárem, in qua sancta Dei Génitrix mortem subiit temporálem, nec tamen mortis néxibus déprimi pótuit, quae Filium tuum Dóminum nostrum Jesum Christum de se génuit incarnátum: Qui tecum.

May the venerable festivity of this day confer upon us, O Lord, (Thy) saving aid, on which the holy Mother of God underwent temporal death, and yet could not be held down by the bonds of death, even She that begot of Herself Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnate. Who with Thee...

This collect was used throughout the Middle Ages in many Western uses, and found in similar form at least as far back as the Gregorian Sacramentary. It remained in the traditional Dominican Rite, though the Novus Ordo Dominican Rite scrapped it. And in case you're wondering: the traditional collect used at Rome (NOT the one created in 1950) mentions neither her death NOR her Assumption.

Where would one find that collect?

I pulled it from a Breviarium Romanum from 1763 on Google Books (my quick translation):

Famulórum tuórum, quæsumus Dómine, delíctis ignósce : ut qui tibi placére de áctibus nostris non valémus, genitrícis Fílii tui Dómini nostri intercessióne salvémur. Qui tecum vivit.

Forgive the sins of your servants, we beseech you, O Lord : that we, who are not able to please you by our deeds, may be saved by the intercession of the Mother of your Son, our Lord. Who with you lives...
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Philip G. on November 16, 2019, 03:54:16 PM
Faith without works is dead.
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Lynne on November 23, 2019, 06:04:27 AM

But I will offer one bit of parting evidence for the death of the Virgin from a Western source, an ancient collect for the feast of the Assumption:

Quote
Veneranda nobis, Dómine, hujus diei festívitas opem cónferat salutárem, in qua sancta Dei Génitrix mortem subiit temporálem, nec tamen mortis néxibus déprimi pótuit, quae Filium tuum Dóminum nostrum Jesum Christum de se génuit incarnátum: Qui tecum.

May the venerable festivity of this day confer upon us, O Lord, (Thy) saving aid, on which the holy Mother of God underwent temporal death, and yet could not be held down by the bonds of death, even She that begot of Herself Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnate. Who with Thee...

This collect was used throughout the Middle Ages in many Western uses, and found in similar form at least as far back as the Gregorian Sacramentary. It remained in the traditional Dominican Rite, though the Novus Ordo Dominican Rite scrapped it. And in case you're wondering: the traditional collect used at Rome (NOT the one created in 1950) mentions neither her death NOR her Assumption.

Where would one find that collect?

I pulled it from a Breviarium Romanum from 1763 on Google Books (my quick translation):

Famulórum tuórum, quæsumus Dómine, delíctis ignósce : ut qui tibi placére de áctibus nostris non valémus, genitrícis Fílii tui Dómini nostri intercessióne salvémur. Qui tecum vivit.

Forgive the sins of your servants, we beseech you, O Lord : that we, who are not able to please you by our deeds, may be saved by the intercession of the Mother of your Son, our Lord. Who with you lives...

Thank you!
Title: Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
Post by: Michael Wilson on November 24, 2019, 07:42:57 AM
Some people have already resurrected, the Gospels mention them: St. Matt. 27:
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[52] And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, [53] And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many.