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The Church Courtyard => Non-Catholic Discussion Subforum => Topic started by: Daniel on January 14, 2019, 05:54:38 AM

Title: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: Daniel on January 14, 2019, 05:54:38 AM
Why do Catholics identify Jehovah with God? How do we know: 1.) that Jehovah is real (not a fictitious entity fabricated by the Jews), and 2.) that if Jehovah is real, that Jehovah is God and not one of the hypothetical lesser gods (perhaps an evil god)?

edit - Or does this require faith?
Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: Kreuzritter on January 14, 2019, 04:04:09 PM
Because YHWH is Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: aquinas138 on January 14, 2019, 08:10:53 PM
Of course it requires faith. Reason can establish that God exists, that He created the universe, etc., but that He is the God of Israel requires faith. We receive this faith through the Church, which is the continuation of ancient Israel.
Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: St.Justin on January 14, 2019, 11:34:37 PM
The Name Jehovah is a corruption of the vowels YHWH first used by Erasmus (c. 1469-1536).
Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: Kreuzritter on January 15, 2019, 05:07:54 AM
The Name Jehovah is a corruption of the vowels YHWH first used by Erasmus (c. 1469-1536).

No. It's a possible pronunciation.


Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: St.Justin on January 15, 2019, 12:04:22 PM
While it may be possible it was never used before Erasmus in the 1400. So it is highly probable that someone corrupted the standard pronunciation of which the JW's latched on to.
Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: Gardener on January 15, 2019, 12:16:29 PM
From Lutheran Satire:
Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: Daniel on January 15, 2019, 03:04:09 PM
There was an ancient (or maybe medieval) gnostic source which had "ΙΕΗΩΟΥΑ", an anagram of the seven vowels of the Greek alphabet.
Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: Kreuzritter on January 15, 2019, 03:05:32 PM
Yes, these vowels are used extensively in the Papyri Graecae Magicae.
Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: Daniel on January 29, 2019, 01:33:46 PM
I just came across this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeeA_Abd5Nk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeeA_Abd5Nk)

What that guy (Nehemia Gordon) says is that he has found recorded testimony from rabbis, saying that the pronunciation was never lost to begin with, and that the rabbis have secretly been passing it down to each other all these years through some sort of ritual. And these rabbis have been using mnemonics to ensure that they transmit it correctly. He says that according to them, it's pronounced "Jehovah" (consonantal 'y' sound for the 'j', 'v' sound for the 'v', and he places the accent on the final syllable).

Additionally, he says that the vowels in "Jehovah" are not the same as the vowels in "Adonai". He didn't go into much detail on this though, so I'm not sure what he meant by it.

I don't know whether any of this is true, but it sounds plausible.
Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: aquinas138 on January 29, 2019, 02:17:33 PM
I just came across this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeeA_Abd5Nk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeeA_Abd5Nk)

What that guy (Nehemia Gordon) says is that he has found recorded testimony from rabbis, saying that the pronunciation was never lost to begin with, and that the rabbis have secretly been passing it down to each other all these years through some sort of ritual. And these rabbis have been using mnemonics to ensure that they transmit it correctly. He says that according to them, it's pronounced "Jehovah" (consonantal 'y' sound for the 'j', 'v' sound for the 'v', and he places the accent on the final syllable).

Additionally, he says that the vowels in "Jehovah" are not the same as the vowels in "Adonai". He didn't go into much detail on this though, so I'm not sure what he meant by it.

I don't know whether any of this is true, but it sounds plausible.

They are indeed the same vowels as Adonai, except that the vowel takes a different form under yod (the vowel scheva in *yehova) as opposed to under aleph (the vowel hataf patah in 'adonai); this is just a phonological rule in biblical Hebrew. Anyway, this is the reason the vowels look different at a glance; nevertheless, the two vowels are allophones.

Secondarily, the "v" in Jehovah is anachronistic; the "v" sound would be the soft pronunciation of the consonant beth. The consonant waw would be pronounced like English "w" in biblical times (like "v" in later Hebrew).
Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: Daniel on January 29, 2019, 02:38:57 PM
They are indeed the same vowels as Adonai, except that the vowel takes a different form under yod (the vowel scheva in *yehova) as opposed to under aleph (the vowel hataf patah in 'adonai); this is just a phonological rule in biblical Hebrew. Anyway, this is the reason the vowels look different at a glance; nevertheless, the two vowels are allophones.
So this wouldn't affect the pronunciation? It's just different graphically?

Secondarily, the "v" in Jehovah is anachronistic; the "v" sound would be the soft pronunciation of the consonant beth. The consonant waw would be pronounced like English "w" in biblical times (like "v" in later Hebrew).
Well, the sources he cited don't say anything about the 'v' sound, so I'm not sure where he got that from.

But as for the vowels: he says his sources are explicit. See 31:40 in the video. One mnemonic is that the vowels in Jehovah are the same as the vowels in the word le'olam "forever". Another mnemonic is that the first letter of each of those vowels (sheva, cholam, kamatz) spell out the word shach''ak "heaven".

Though I suppose it's possible that he's making all this stuff up. (I don't know, since I don't have access to the sources and I don't know Hebrew anyway...)
Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: Gardener on January 29, 2019, 02:56:16 PM
Fascinating topic Daniel.

I looked up Nehemiah Gordon, but I'm a bit confused on if he is a Jew or a Messianic Jew, or a Gentile masquerading as a Messianic Rabbi. His store seems to have books which focus on the intersectionality of Hebrew and the early Church -- an odd field of study for a typical Rabbi. He also seems to be into hocking his own wares and stuff like the 1oz silver commemorative rounds.

I also wonder if his sources are Kabbalistic in nature, as those folks tend to go in all sorts of wild directions; or if he is finding bits and pieces of things to force fit his own theories.



Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: Daniel on January 29, 2019, 04:44:06 PM
I looked up Nehemiah Gordon, but I'm a bit confused on if he is a Jew or a Messianic Jew, or a Gentile masquerading as a Messianic Rabbi. His store seems to have books which focus on the intersectionality of Hebrew and the early Church -- an odd field of study for a typical Rabbi. He also seems to be into hocking his own wares and stuff like the 1oz silver commemorative rounds.

I also wonder if his sources are Kabbalistic in nature, as those folks tend to go in all sorts of wild directions; or if he is finding bits and pieces of things to force fit his own theories.
Yeah, I don't know anything about him apart from what I've seen in the video. But in the video he presents himself as a messianic Jew. (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he's not a fraud.)

If you haven't seen the video, his basic claim is that he's some sort of a researcher who has access to a database of obscure unpublished Hebrew manuscripts, and, using the database, he has found ~16 sources which all point towards this idea that the vowels were deliberately hidden, never lost. He says that scholars aren't aware of these sources, mostly because scholars aren't looking in the right place, and partly because these sources weren't always widely available (most of the manuscripts were never published--not even in Hebrew--, and some weren't even added to the database until recently).

There could be some truth in it: I don't doubt that there really are a lot of manuscripts out there which aren't widely available ans which may have been overlooked. And I don't doubt that Jewish rabbis probably have all sorts of obscure oral traditions which most people don't know about.
At the same time, it's all very sensationalized. (Nehemiah Gordon keeps saying that he's the 'first person' to make any of this stuff public. And then he goes so far as to claim himself to be a distant descendant of King David!) So it's possible that he's some quack who has no idea what he's even talking about, or else some liar or conman who is making stuff up and trying to profit off his 'research' via the publicity.
Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: Gardener on January 29, 2019, 04:51:09 PM
Ah, a messianic rabbi. They're all over the map, not having any tradition to follow. The Messianic movement dates to what... the 60's or 70's?

I'll watch the video when I get a chance.
Title: Re: Why do Catholics believe that Jehovah is God?
Post by: aquinas138 on January 30, 2019, 05:31:04 AM
They are indeed the same vowels as Adonai, except that the vowel takes a different form under yod (the vowel scheva in *yehova) as opposed to under aleph (the vowel hataf patah in 'adonai); this is just a phonological rule in biblical Hebrew. Anyway, this is the reason the vowels look different at a glance; nevertheless, the two vowels are allophones.
So this wouldn't affect the pronunciation? It's just different graphically?

Well, technically it affects pronunciation, but subphonemically. If you're not familiar with linguistic terms, that just means they are different sounds from the standpoint of the mechanics of how the vocal apparatus produces sounds, but not from the standpoint of meaning. Allophones are two different sounds that are, within a particular language, not considered to be different for purposes of meaning (this is a very non-technical definition).

For example, if you pay close attention, the "t" in the words stop and water are different sounds. In English, these are allophones; if you try to over-emphasize and use the "hard t" found in stop when pronouncing water, other English-speakers would think it sounds a bit odd, but would not think you were saying a different word. In Spanish, however, these two sounds are not allophones.

That's what's going on with the scheva and hataf patah in the Tetragrammaton and "Adonai"; the two vowels are allophones in Hebrew, and hataf patah is required under glottal consonants in Hebrew phonology.