Suscipe Domine Traditional Catholic Forum

The Church Courtyard => Ask a Traditionalist => Topic started by: Heinrich on January 07, 2019, 01:51:28 PM

Title: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Heinrich on January 07, 2019, 01:51:28 PM
Mrs. H and I were discussing with bewilderment the number of young men domiciling in parents' home into mid twenties. Some closer to 30. They aren't disabled nor have medical issues. They are, well, just there. What are your thoughts on this? It is tough in CO due to expense, but my boys are out and gone. One in Denver, other here C Springs.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Michael Wilson on January 07, 2019, 01:52:59 PM
I'm a little bit over the average, as I never moved out; but somewhere along the line, I stopped living with my parents, and they started living with me.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Gardener on January 07, 2019, 03:41:47 PM
If they are working towards a goal, I don’t see a problem with it. Especially if they continue to contribute around the house and pay a nominal rent (as a father, I’d squirrel that away and give it to them in full when they accomplish their goal).

But the whole just stay at home, no direction sort of stuff? It’s bad parenting and excessive mothering in my opinion.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: dolores on January 07, 2019, 04:09:46 PM
I don't think there is a set age, but rather it depends on the circumstances.  I also agree with what Gardener said; if you have a 20-something that is working steadily and is contributing to to the household in someway, but is living at home to either save up for marriage, a house, or some other reasonable goal, I don't see a problem with it.  If, however, you have a son who's picking up shifts at McDonald's a few times a week and doesn't do much else, there is a problem.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: The Harlequin King on January 07, 2019, 04:14:23 PM
As others have said, it all depends. I'd still live with my mother if I was in the same city. Better to give her money than throw it away at another landlord month to month.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Sen on January 07, 2019, 04:25:46 PM
As long as boys are in school and/or working, and not being unproductive, I generally support staying at home with parents. Why throw away money to line the pockets of landlords when they could instead save that money for a down payment on a mortgage? Also, don't parents miss their children and vice versa? Maybe it's because I was brought up in a collectivist culture, but the individualistic tendencies of the West are strange to me. I enjoy spending time with my parents and treasure the moments we have together, especially as they're getting older in age. Grandparents being in the same household or nearby also means free daycare for the grandchildren, if both parents work, and the grandchildren, in turn, are a source of joy for them. Aging and elderly folk being isolated from their children and families is one of the saddest things about the West.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Habitual_Ritual on January 07, 2019, 06:03:50 PM
I was 20
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Der Polka-König on January 07, 2019, 08:39:13 PM
Agree with others that it's circumstantial. I moved out immediately at 18, and we were all happy. I was a stupid teenage atheist punk-rocker at that point. A few years later, my uncle died on the feast of the Immaculate Conception, my grandfather died a couple months later on the feast of Our Lady of Lourdes, my father's back and knee problems got exceedingly bad, and my mother went through radiation for breast cancer. As all that was going on, I discovered the TLM, then moved back home to help out with my mom. She quickly realized how much she missed the TLM as well. Things worked out for all as I could pay off college debt while helping with my mom's medical needs. The lack of debt made me feel at least a little more free to discern vocations.

Not that it's helped a ton with discernment in my case, but parents should remember that their children can usually not enter Religious life if they have debt. Don't let them be freeloaders, but don't let them accrue thousands in debt either.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Acolyte on January 07, 2019, 09:36:26 PM
I was 20

26, but I was in school after taking a break out of high school.  I worked between school.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Heinrich on January 07, 2019, 10:51:39 PM
I am clearly in the minority here and am quite surprised at the almost unanimous consent being given to "basement" dwelling. I understand that circumstances can play a role. Personally, I was 18. Did a stint at my dad's at 23 for a few months to get resquared, but have been supporting myself, a lady, chillin', cats and dogs in some capacity the whole time. Yes, I have regrets. However, the age should be 22 if healthy physically and mentally. It does a disservice to a man's potential to stay with mom and dad(who do not need help).
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Davis Blank - EG on January 07, 2019, 11:13:40 PM
I think traditionally marriage would have occurred much younger and the new family would have moved out then, but lived extremely close by (maybe just in a small cottage on the family land).  There would be separation but lots of continued mutual support.  Best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: diaduit on January 08, 2019, 04:23:12 AM
I would agree about having goals and if living at home serves that goal well then yes to an extent.  However getting out and living in rented accommodation is a lifes lesson.  Budgeting, cooking, maintenance, being responsible, learning how to get on with neighbours, getting yourself up for work etc, these are all necessary skills for adulthood and I think goal or no goal, after 20/21 your kids should experience it at some stage.
I would not like my adult children hanging around living at home.  Not because I am cold and uncaring but dh and I have done our bit, earned our stripes and it would be time to enjoy the fruits of our labour.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: The Harlequin King on January 08, 2019, 10:19:56 AM
It does a disservice to a man's potential to stay with mom and dad(who do not need help).

Here's another factor that may shift things one way or another. If mom and dad are both alive and still together, and the son is the last child in the house, it would be courteous to move out just so the parents can finally have time alone again.

On the other hand, if mom or dad is widowed or divorced, moving out may make them more lonely, depressed, or have a lot more work to do. (This was my case. My mom is still upset that I moved away.)
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: John Lamb on January 08, 2019, 10:43:09 AM
"Get them out the house by 18" is a peculiarly modern, especially American, and individualist mentality. Independence is not virtuous in and of itself, and in fact can be an occasion of sin (e.g. for most modern college students living away from home). But people today are so mad for independence that they don't even mind sending their daughters off to places where fornication & contraception is seen as practically a solemn duty.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: John Lamb on January 08, 2019, 10:47:58 AM
I think traditionally marriage would have occurred much younger and the new family would have moved out then, but lived extremely close by (maybe just in a small cottage on the family land).  There would be separation but lots of continued mutual support.  Best of both worlds.

This is the traditional extended family as opposed to the modern nuclear family. Modern people tend to think that getting away from your parents and your extended family is a liberty, when of course it is a kind of economic enslavement because without the backing of the family tribe you are much more at the mercy of the state & your employer.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Heinrich on January 08, 2019, 05:04:42 PM
"Get them out the house by 18" is a peculiarly modern, especially American, and individualist mentality. Independence is not virtuous in and of itself, and in fact can be an occasion of sin (e.g. for most modern college students living away from home). But people today are so mad for independence that they don't even mind sending their daughters off to places where fornication & contraception is seen as practically a solemn duty.

Wrong on the modern assessment. Boys turned into men much quicker "back in the day". They had vocational skills, maturity and physical strength to take  care of their ladies. Do you still be at home?
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Josephine87 on January 09, 2019, 12:19:44 AM
Median marriage age for men in 1890s America was 26, almost a decade after 18.  Western Europeans marry a bit later than other cultures, both men and women. It makes sense those traditions persisted in the U.S.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Kreuzritter on January 09, 2019, 07:51:30 AM
"Get them out the house by 18" is a peculiarly modern, especially American, and individualist mentality. Independence is not virtuous in and of itself, and in fact can be an occasion of sin (e.g. for most modern college students living away from home). But people today are so mad for independence that they don't even mind sending their daughters off to places where fornication & contraception is seen as practically a solemn duty.

Wrong on the modern assessment. Boys turned into men much quicker "back in the day". They had vocational skills, maturity and physical strength to take  care of their ladies. Do you still be at home?

No, he's not wrong. The idea of children who have come of age moving out of the family home and going their own way as the normal course of things is absolutely a modern American idea that has now been popularised through the global dominance of Anglo-American culture. The historical norm in Europe was for sons to remain with and support the family and for daughters to only move out when married - to the home of the husband livign with his parents. The points on the the delayed maturity of younger generations aside, it's wrong to project radically individualistic Anglo-American notions of the normal course of life onto the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Kreuzritter on January 09, 2019, 07:56:10 AM
However, the age should be 22 if healthy physically and mentally. It does a disservice to a man's potential to stay with mom and dad(who do not need help).

Go tell that fantastic story to the vast majority of human beings who have ever lived. American exceptionalism is so entrenched in the minds of Americans that they even believe their particular social norms are the norms for humanity across time and space.


Example: my father and his brothers in central Europe. Two of them still live to this day on the land in the village of that once held the family house of their parents. One of my counsins lives in his parents home there with his wife and children, and two other cousins each live in separate houses built on that land. One brother moved elsewhere because he got land through his wife, and my father, the only one to go out and see the world, sold his portion. That's was NORMAL for Europe, and still is for most of the world (Latin America, Africa, most fo Asia)
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: awkwardcustomer on January 09, 2019, 08:26:12 AM
... it's wrong to project radically individualistic Anglo-American notions of the normal course of life onto the rest of the world.

This happens all the time.  What happened to the extended, multi-generational family?  The Anglo-American suburban dream destroyed it.

But mass, single family houses are good for business, since each single family unit needs the full range of consumer goods. The single family suburban house is an invention of consumer capitalism
 
Anglo-American Trads love the very system that has destroyed their families and communities.  And then complain about those who have difficulty functioning in that system.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: bigbadtrad on January 09, 2019, 09:01:53 AM
Moved out at 18, moved back to help dad with the business, left for the monastery, and came back to help him again and stayed until I got married.

Honestly as long as your child is working and isn't lazy why push them out? I'm best buddies with my father and my father's friends who I grew up with at church. I learned about escaping the Ukraine during WWII, how to be patient from Paul, and many other virtues from older men I would never have learned otherwise. Young men need more wisdom in their life.

The REAL problem isn't your kid moving out, but the parents developing a work ethic for their kids and their children lovingly trying to have their own vision as well that works together between child and parent.

If your kid is working hard and a help around the house never push them out. You'll be their best influence and while they might have friends you'll always be the voice they trust. I would always want my kids home until they go to religious life or get married. They wash the dishes, clean the floors and help with small things since the age of 3.

My oldest is 10 and she can cook, sew, have a tea party for her friends and clean up for them afterwards. She tells a mean joke and loves reading to her smaller brothers and sisters. She can stay with me until she's ready to become a nun or get married.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: awkwardcustomer on January 09, 2019, 09:40:20 AM
Example: my father and his brothers in central Europe. Two of them still live to this day on the land in the village of that once held the family house of their parents. One of my counsins lives in his parents home there with his wife and children, and two other cousins each live in separate houses built on that land. One brother moved elsewhere because he got land through his wife, and my father, the only one to go out and see the world, sold his portion. That's was NORMAL for Europe, and still is for most of the world (Latin America, Africa, most fo Asia)

Exactly.  The family you describe is the norm.  Single family suburban living is the exception.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Archer on January 09, 2019, 09:41:49 AM
Joined the Coast Guard the day after my 18th birthday, only went back on leave. 

In theory though, if a son is working towards a short-term goal and paying his way I don't have a problem with it. Short term being the operative word. Too many people fly by "in the future" hopes and dreams. Set a goal, work hard for it, achieve success, and move on.

Girls are different.

Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Josephine87 on January 09, 2019, 02:48:01 PM
The historical norm in Europe was for sons to remain with and support the family and for daughters to only move out when married - to the home of the husband livign with his parents.

This must be the source of the "dreaded mother-in-law" stereotype!  I love mine, but I think of poor St. Monica living in her in-laws' pagan home.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: awkwardcustomer on January 09, 2019, 05:38:02 PM
Joined the Coast Guard the day after my 18th birthday, only went back on leave. 

In theory though, if a son is working towards a short-term goal and paying his way I don't have a problem with it. Short term being the operative word. Too many people fly by "in the future" hopes and dreams. Set a goal, work hard for it, achieve success, and move on.

Girls are different.

There's always one son who wants to go to sea.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Kreuzritter on January 09, 2019, 05:58:36 PM
The historical norm in Europe was for sons to remain with and support the family and for daughters to only move out when married - to the home of the husband livign with his parents.

This must be the source of the "dreaded mother-in-law" stereotype!  I love mine, but I think of poor St. Monica living in her in-laws' pagan home.
 

Yeah. The fact that those two uncles of mine living next-door to each other haven't spoken in 20 years is another story ...  :pray2:
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: christulsa on January 09, 2019, 08:03:45 PM
If the young man is still considered a “boy,” then perhaps he needs more preparation to be an independent adult   :shrug:
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Davis Blank - EG on January 09, 2019, 10:21:40 PM
Your classically Catholic countries, like Italy & Spain, all have cultures in which the children, as adults, remain with the parents or very close to the parents.  It is the American abnormality to desire for the kids to move far away and see them once or twice a year.  As I see it, its all a part of the designs of the elites to divide and conquer - destroy the family, destroy tradition, send the kids to college to be indoctrinated by marxists, get them hooked on sex, drugs and careerism, and sink them into slavery levels of debt - now you have a perfectly easily controllable populace.

I think the ideal situation is to have adult children live on the family land in a separate building.  The elders provide care for the grandkids and maybe some cooking, the adult children do the hard labor and care for the elder parents in their latter years.

In America the ideal is to move as far away from family as you can and then grumble and make jokes about seeing them during Thanksgiving.

For what its worth, I bought into it all, and moved across to the opposite side of the planet.  Thankfully my family followed several years later and we happily live in the same community.

Asians remain with or very near family as well, usually though its living together.  Its an American oddity, one perpetuated by and for the oligarchs, to their benefit, and almost all of us swallowed it hook, line and sinker.  The American dream is to break free from your roots and go your own way.  Baked into the pie from our very founding.  None of it seems Catholic.

America also perpetuates the belief that if you cannot make it on your own, you are a loser and have failed at life.  Again, not Catholic, as the purpose of life is to get to Heaven, and bring as many other souls there as you can.  America focuses on the material and looks down upon those whom have not the material success they have, all the while missing the big picture (perhaps because American society was formed by a bunch of people whom believed in sola fide, double predestination, and generic deism).
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: diaduit on January 10, 2019, 03:57:09 AM
If the young man is still considered a “boy,” then perhaps he needs more preparation to be an independent adult   :shrug:

You have to ask why is the young man considered a boy?  Maybe he needs to get out from behind mammas skirts.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Quaremerepulisti on January 10, 2019, 09:15:35 AM
A lot of you it seems are either yearning for a world that no longer exists or else a caricatured version of masculinity that no longer exists either except in the eyes of social conservatives.  Most 18-year-old men aren't ready to completely move out on their own, buy a house, start a family, and work as a manual laborer.  Does this mean they are necessarily "immature"?  Not at all.  Society has changed, and they are rightly changing with it.  That's true maturity, not clamoring for the return of a societal structure and attitudes which will not return.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with a college undergraduate staying with his parents while he finishes school, if the location of the school is close enough to allow him to do that.  In fact it is quite sensible for him to do so, as by so doing he can avoid a whole bunch of student loan debt.  However, there is also absolutely nothing wrong with him leaving home if by so doing he obtains a much better educational opportunity.

And I guess that's my main point of disagreement with the traditionalist zeitgeist.  You are so focused on what the ideal should be (whether a young unmarried man should be at home or not, and praising manual labor to the skies) that you lose sight of reality.  And your ideal isn't really so ideal after all.  You'd love to time travel back to the Middle Ages - until you realize, when you get there, you're only one bad harvest away from utter starvation - and to prevent that, you have to work all the time (pesticides, green revolution, etc., not having been invented yet, grain yields were only about 2 to 1 or so) during the growing season (and that means, not 8-hour days, but more like 15-hour days, etc., taking advantage of the long daylight during the summer months) just to be able to survive the winter.

This is not, in any way, a defense of the abuses of modern American capitalism, and you will find no stronger opponent than me regarding things like outsourcing, employing illegal immigrants, fictitiously moving profits to overseas jurisdictions to avoid taxes, etc.  This is a right wing blind spot.  Such practices should be severely punished.

Nor is it a defense of the abuses of modern American academia, and you will also find no stronger opponent than me regarding things like SJW cry-ins, safe spaces, affirmative action, and over and above all that the granting of garbage degrees (like Women's Studies) that qualify one only for teaching others to gain said garbage degree, while being employed at subsistence wages as an adjunct.  This is a left wing blind spot.

But.  That doesn't mean businesses and universities are in themselves bad, and the abuses are no excuse for calling for some type of socialism, or the claim that highly educated people really haven't learned anything, as we sometimes see on this forum.  Society is much better with them than without them.  It's why most of us aren't living a hand-to-mouth existence.

And the facts of the matter are, whether you like it or not, that 1) Advances in technology have already rendered a lot of manual labor obsolete; 2) This trend is going to continue as computing power continues to grow and more advances are made in artificial intelligence, machine learning, etc.; 3) The gap between what highly skilled and educated people are able to produce and what unskilled people are able to produce is high and getting higher, and it isn't reasonable to expect that unskilled people should be able to profit from the labors of the skilled as much as the skilled themselves; 4) It takes quite a lot of time and effort to become really skilled at something.  For instance, a medical doctor (typically) goes to 4 years undergrad, 4 years med school, 2 or 3 years residency, then 1 year fellowship.  A lawyer has 4 years undergrad, typically 3 years law school, and some years as an associate slaving away.  A scientific researcher has 4 years undergrad, usually about 6 years grad school, then several years as as postdoc.

This is reality.

Buuuut, but, but, Steve Jobs, you will say - shows how much a college "education" is really worth.  The reality is that stories like his are so remarkable precisely because they are the exception.  For every Steve Jobs, there's thousands and tens of thousands whose tinkering in the garage resulted in nothing but trash taken at the next pickup.  True autodidacts are wonderful, incredibly talented and able people.  They're also very rare.

Finally, young men of today are (rightly) rejecting the idea that their main, or only, standard of value is how useful they can be to women.  Pursuits such as finding new medical cures are worthwhile in their own right.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: nmoerbeek on January 10, 2019, 09:37:47 AM
I moved out at 22 on the day of my marriage. A lot of my advantages in life came from the sacrifices my parents made for me, especially as a young adult.

My Father got me employment off and on before I was 16 with computer tech, and web work for his office and clients.
My parents drove me to and from my first W2 job at 16, even before I could drive and continued to do so.
I graduated early from high school at 17, and decided to go to community college to save money.  When my employer broke a promise to me for a promotion (my parents pushed me) to get another job which resulted in my first full time IT job at 18. 

They then enabled me to work full time and go to school full time, by doing many things for me (laundry, cooking etc), and asking very little in return, some minor chores, some small amounts of money that had to do with the fact they could no longer claim me as a dependent do to my salary.  I was able to save my salary, and put a down payment on a home at an early age and get married.

My Wife, had a different experience, she moved out of home for good reason at 18, and even wound up taking in her younger siblings off and on over the years.  She did not go to college but entered the full time work force.  She only quite her job once we were engaged and she moved down to live in the house I had bought before we were married, (I stayed with my parents), so we could go through marriage formation with our priest.

I have seen people try the school of hard knocks approach with their kids.  Often times the parents having raised their children poorly feel that it is right to throw them out on their own at 18, or after graduation.  It sometimes works, and sometimes it fails with disaster consequences.  I have also seen children with every advantage from good homes squander those advantages through various forms of sin.

 I have also seen adult children, living with their parents, and their parents supporting a relationship which is obviously stunting to them, and makes their adult children infantile even though they have full time careers and make good incomes. This last one is to some degree the most harmful, but it takes two to tango, parents are choosing to be overbearing, and adult children are choosing to let them at this point. 

The last ugly situation is when Mom or Dad is a failure at their duties, and there being other children an older Child winds up supporting the family.

I don't think there is a rule of thumb, it really depends on all circumstances, but domestic harmony is important.  I think that parents and adult children should find the answer by seeking domestic harmony and having clearly defined roles within a household.   
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Maximilian on January 10, 2019, 12:48:58 PM

You'd love to time travel back to the Middle Ages - until you realize, when you get there, you're only one bad harvest away from utter starvation - and to prevent that, you have to work all the time (pesticides, green revolution, etc., not having been invented yet, grain yields were only about 2 to 1 or so) during the growing season (and that means, not 8-hour days, but more like 15-hour days, etc., taking advantage of the long daylight during the summer months) just to be able to survive the winter.

You're repeating anti-Catholic Masonic propaganda about "progress." This was all disproven two centuries ago.
 - Medieval Christian peasants had more leisure than modern people.
 - No one ever starved.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: awkwardcustomer on January 10, 2019, 01:26:20 PM
During the High Middle Ages, a typical peasant could house, feed and clothe his family to a reasonable level by the standards of the time by working for only two-thirds of the year. 

This left the remaining third of the year for resting and for the celebration of the many and varied feasts and Holy Days of the Church Year.  According to numerous accounts, Europe would almost be on the move during pilgrimage season.  The Wife of Bath had been to Jerusalem three times, and to Rome and Santiago de Compostella.

The claims  of the Protestant reformers and others re the Middle Ages is mere 'victor's propaganda'. 
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Quaremerepulisti on January 10, 2019, 02:44:18 PM

You'd love to time travel back to the Middle Ages - until you realize, when you get there, you're only one bad harvest away from utter starvation - and to prevent that, you have to work all the time (pesticides, green revolution, etc., not having been invented yet, grain yields were only about 2 to 1 or so) during the growing season (and that means, not 8-hour days, but more like 15-hour days, etc., taking advantage of the long daylight during the summer months) just to be able to survive the winter.

You're repeating anti-Catholic Masonic propaganda about "progress." This was all disproven two centuries ago.
 - Medieval Christian peasants had more leisure than modern people.
 - No one ever starved.

So this is all anti-Catholic Masonic propaganda I suppose.  Nobody really died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1315%E2%80%9317

But you're welcome to your delusions.  The rest of us will get along with living our lives.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Quaremerepulisti on January 10, 2019, 02:49:11 PM
During the High Middle Ages, a typical peasant could house, feed and clothe his family to a reasonable level by the standards of the time by working for only two-thirds of the year. 

Yes, and what were those "standards of the time" (rather horrible) and what was nature of that work for that "two-thirds of the year" (grueling)?

https://www.lostkingdom.net/the-life-of-a-villager-during-the-middle-ages/


Quote
The claims  of the Protestant reformers and others re the Middle Ages is mere 'victor's propaganda'.

Of course.  Anything that reflects poorly on the golden Middle Ages must be mere propaganda.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Archer on January 10, 2019, 02:57:44 PM
A lot of you it seems are either yearning for a world that no longer exists or else a caricatured version of masculinity that no longer exists either except in the eyes of social conservatives.  Most 18-year-old men aren't ready to completely move out on their own, buy a house, start a family, and work as a manual laborer.  Does this mean they are necessarily "immature"?  Not at all.  Society has changed, and they are rightly changing with it.  That's true maturity, not clamoring for the return of a societal structure and attitudes which will not return.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with a college undergraduate staying with his parents while he finishes school, if the location of the school is close enough to allow him to do that.  In fact it is quite sensible for him to do so, as by so doing he can avoid a whole bunch of student loan debt.  However, there is also absolutely nothing wrong with him leaving home if by so doing he obtains a much better educational opportunity.

And I guess that's my main point of disagreement with the traditionalist zeitgeist.  You are so focused on what the ideal should be (whether a young unmarried man should be at home or not, and praising manual labor to the skies) that you lose sight of reality.  And your ideal isn't really so ideal after all.  You'd love to time travel back to the Middle Ages - until you realize, when you get there, you're only one bad harvest away from utter starvation - and to prevent that, you have to work all the time (pesticides, green revolution, etc., not having been invented yet, grain yields were only about 2 to 1 or so) during the growing season (and that means, not 8-hour days, but more like 15-hour days, etc., taking advantage of the long daylight during the summer months) just to be able to survive the winter.

This is not, in any way, a defense of the abuses of modern American capitalism, and you will find no stronger opponent than me regarding things like outsourcing, employing illegal immigrants, fictitiously moving profits to overseas jurisdictions to avoid taxes, etc.  This is a right wing blind spot.  Such practices should be severely punished.

Nor is it a defense of the abuses of modern American academia, and you will also find no stronger opponent than me regarding things like SJW cry-ins, safe spaces, affirmative action, and over and above all that the granting of garbage degrees (like Women's Studies) that qualify one only for teaching others to gain said garbage degree, while being employed at subsistence wages as an adjunct.  This is a left wing blind spot.

But.  That doesn't mean businesses and universities are in themselves bad, and the abuses are no excuse for calling for some type of socialism, or the claim that highly educated people really haven't learned anything, as we sometimes see on this forum.  Society is much better with them than without them.  It's why most of us aren't living a hand-to-mouth existence.

And the facts of the matter are, whether you like it or not, that 1) Advances in technology have already rendered a lot of manual labor obsolete; 2) This trend is going to continue as computing power continues to grow and more advances are made in artificial intelligence, machine learning, etc.; 3) The gap between what highly skilled and educated people are able to produce and what unskilled people are able to produce is high and getting higher, and it isn't reasonable to expect that unskilled people should be able to profit from the labors of the skilled as much as the skilled themselves; 4) It takes quite a lot of time and effort to become really skilled at something.  For instance, a medical doctor (typically) goes to 4 years undergrad, 4 years med school, 2 or 3 years residency, then 1 year fellowship.  A lawyer has 4 years undergrad, typically 3 years law school, and some years as an associate slaving away.  A scientific researcher has 4 years undergrad, usually about 6 years grad school, then several years as as postdoc.

This is reality.

Buuuut, but, but, Steve Jobs, you will say - shows how much a college "education" is really worth.  The reality is that stories like his are so remarkable precisely because they are the exception.  For every Steve Jobs, there's thousands and tens of thousands whose tinkering in the garage resulted in nothing but trash taken at the next pickup.  True autodidacts are wonderful, incredibly talented and able people.  They're also very rare.

Finally, young men of today are (rightly) rejecting the idea that their main, or only, standard of value is how useful they can be to women.  Pursuits such as finding new medical cures are worthwhile in their own right.

I actually agree with a lot of your points.
As someone with an MBA, I understand the value of education.

I also understand and value manual labor. I think there is a place for education, just as there is a place for plumbers, electricians, and "waste managers."

I believe one of the biggest lies told to the last couple generations is, "you need to go to college."

But does that mean no one should go to college? Absolutely not. We need good leaders, good lawyers, good teachers, good doctors, just like we need good construction workers. It should all balance out.

You know it isn't balanced however, because 44 million "students" owe a combined $1.5 Trillion, while trades sit empty. https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: awkwardcustomer on January 10, 2019, 05:31:30 PM
During the High Middle Ages, a typical peasant could house, feed and clothe his family to a reasonable level by the standards of the time by working for only two-thirds of the year. 

Yes, and what were those "standards of the time" (rather horrible) and what was nature of that work for that "two-thirds of the year" (grueling)?

https://www.lostkingdom.net/the-life-of-a-villager-during-the-middle-ages/


Quote
The claims  of the Protestant reformers and others re the Middle Ages is mere 'victor's propaganda'.

Of course.  Anything that reflects poorly on the golden Middle Ages must be mere propaganda.

Why do you care if some people admire the Middle Ages?  Is there something intrinsically wrong about having a fondness for the Medieval period?  Some people go mad for the Greeks, or spend their lives studying the Hittites, or excavating pyramids.

Is that okay?
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: james03 on January 10, 2019, 06:29:07 PM
Quote
But people today are so mad for independence that they don't even mind sending their daughters off to places where fornication & contraception is seen as practically a solemn duty.

I believe that you are living in Europe.  This hasn't been the case in America since the time we were sending men to the moon and inventing things.  Today we are much more like Europe.  Men put off marriage until much later, which means a lot of fornication.  A lot of millennial males live at home and have no motivation to do much.

I moved out at 18 (college).  Tried to live at home freshman summer and couldn't do it, even though my parents were pretty cool.  Never lived with my parents after that again.  The main motivation was a feeling for being responsible for myself, and not having to depend on my parents anymore.  It was kind of like a passage to manhood.  Got married at 23.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: GloriaPatri on January 10, 2019, 07:24:27 PM
During the High Middle Ages, a typical peasant could house, feed and clothe his family to a reasonable level by the standards of the time by working for only two-thirds of the year. 

Yes, and what were those "standards of the time" (rather horrible) and what was nature of that work for that "two-thirds of the year" (grueling)?

https://www.lostkingdom.net/the-life-of-a-villager-during-the-middle-ages/


Quote
The claims  of the Protestant reformers and others re the Middle Ages is mere 'victor's propaganda'.

Of course.  Anything that reflects poorly on the golden Middle Ages must be mere propaganda.

Why do you care if some people admire the Middle Ages?  Is there something intrinsically wrong about having a fondness for the Medieval period?  Some people go mad for the Greeks, or spend their lives studying the Hittites, or excavating pyramids.

Is that okay?

There's a vast difference between taking an academic interest in a certain time period and romanticizing it. Quare is, I'm fairly certain, criticizing the latter and not the former.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Michael Wilson on January 10, 2019, 07:29:34 PM
What is the best for the salvation of your child's soul? Definitely sending you son or daughter to live in a dorm of a modern college, is putting them morally speaking, in a toxic environment. If your child wants to go to College or even a trade school, if at all possible, let them live at home and take classes or the trade course. The difference in maturity of an average 18 yr old vs. 22 year old (especially for men) is really big.  I know of a family whose father wants all of his kids to obtain an Engineering degree, so he moved his family near a big University with a good Engineering program; that way he has the kids at home, and at the same time they are obtaining their degree, with a minimum of contamination from the University milieu. 
I also agree that the idea that:  "Happiest day of my life, was when the last kid went off to College, and the dog died"; is a Protestant mindset.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: james03 on January 10, 2019, 07:54:17 PM
Quote
Finally, young men of today are (rightly) rejecting the idea that their main, or only, standard of value is how useful they can be to women.
  LOL.  This is a good strategy, and the irony is that the more you take care of yourself and pursue your interests, the more the women will come after you.  Being a pleasing simp will get you nowhere with the ladies.

I have to disagree with your "young men of today" claim.  SOME are discovering the manosphere where Gen X old salts rip them a new one and tell them to become men, but I don't think its a big number.  I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: awkwardcustomer on January 10, 2019, 07:54:45 PM
There's a vast difference between taking an academic interest in a certain time period and romanticizing it.

Agreed.

Quote
Quare is, I'm fairly certain, criticizing the latter and not the former.

Quare has made it perfectly clear that, in his opinion, anyone who admires the Middle Ages for its faith, art, architecture, world view etc, or who attempts to provide a counterbalance to the relentless criticism of the Medieval  period for things like their bad plumbing and busy summer work schedules, that person is necessarily possessed of a desire to travel back in time and live there.

He said so.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: james03 on January 10, 2019, 07:58:11 PM
Quote
What is the best for the salvation of your child's soul?

We are in trying times.  The danger is overreaction, and this can't be discounted.  Trads who don't let their teenagers socialize are shocked when they turn 18, give up the Faith, and live a life of depravity.  That's why I advocate Trad communities to have youth programs, including swing dancing, and other mixed gender events, so that kids can HAVE FUN.  Of course you have adult supervision, but you have to give the kids a chance to socialize and have social activities.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Quaremerepulisti on January 10, 2019, 10:40:07 PM
I actually agree with a lot of your points.
As someone with an MBA, I understand the value of education.

I also understand and value manual labor. I think there is a place for education, just as there is a place for plumbers, electricians, and "waste managers."

I believe one of the biggest lies told to the last couple generations is, "you need to go to college."

But does that mean no one should go to college? Absolutely not. We need good leaders, good lawyers, good teachers, good doctors, just like we need good construction workers. It should all balance out.

You know it isn't balanced however, because 44 million "students" owe a combined $1.5 Trillion, while trades sit empty. https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university

I value manual labor too, but it's simply a fact there is and will be less demand for it in the future.  The idea that everyone can and should get a job in manual labor is not realistic.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Davis Blank - EG on January 10, 2019, 10:41:07 PM
Quote
But.  That doesn't mean businesses and universities are in themselves bad, and the abuses are no excuse for calling for some type of socialism, or the claim that highly educated people really haven't learned anything, as we sometimes see on this forum.  Society is much better with them than without them.  It's why most of us aren't living a hand-to-mouth existence.

Just noting that its the excess energy provided primarily by fossil fuels that prevents us from living the hand-to-mouth existence.  People have always been smart, inquisitive and creative.  But without the excess energy to free them from such labor, they are unable to devote time towards these intellectual pursuits.  Excess energy is the base underlying it all.  This is not to say that having such energy alone gets us to where we are, for without people capable of utilizing it for production, it is useless.  But without the source of energy nothing is going to happen.  Smart people cannot pursue intellectual matters if they do not first have their time freed up from having to concern themselves with growing food.  The Romans had slaves and so they had excess time to build magnificent structures.  Modern man has fossil fuels so he can engineer many other marvels.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Davis Blank - EG on January 10, 2019, 10:59:11 PM
I actually agree with a lot of your points.
As someone with an MBA, I understand the value of education.

I also understand and value manual labor. I think there is a place for education, just as there is a place for plumbers, electricians, and "waste managers."

I believe one of the biggest lies told to the last couple generations is, "you need to go to college."

But does that mean no one should go to college? Absolutely not. We need good leaders, good lawyers, good teachers, good doctors, just like we need good construction workers. It should all balance out.

You know it isn't balanced however, because 44 million "students" owe a combined $1.5 Trillion, while trades sit empty. https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university

I value manual labor too, but it's simply a fact there is and will be less demand for it in the future.  The idea that everyone can and should get a job in manual labor is not realistic.

Manual labor did not disappear, it simply moved to China which employs hundreds of millions in factory labor.  It moved to South America and Southeast Asian countries which employ countless in farming food for Americans to eat.  America is the empire and is largely shielded from seeing the vast quantity of manual labor it takes to live the American suburban life.  That labor still goes on, its just 10,000 miles away - out of sight out of mind.  I note that the story-of-the-day, which is Amazon, is not about how to produce things, its merely how to use technology to get things which are already produced to us.  But without that Chinaman first making it, it isn't around for Amazon & UPS' robots to quickly get to our doorstep.

If America was not run by short-sighted oligarchs for oligarchs then perhaps it would fix its trade practices and then the manual labor, which never evaporated, merely relocated, would be seen in America again.  Over 90% of seafood eaten in America is from overseas.  We have two gigantic oceans, plentiful rivers and lakes, a big gulf, and yet we do not employ men to fish it.  Did we stop eating fish?  No, we just are the empire and have opted to have others do it for us, and rack up colossal debt to do so.  In 2017 we apparently imported the largest amount of seafood ever, 6 billion pounds worth, valued at over $22 billion USD - all of that manual labor to produce such vast a mountain of fish was performed, and will be performed going forward, but its merely shielded from Americans' sensitive eyes.  That labor could be done by Americans.

The U.S. imports over 4 billion pounds of food from China each year.  Its a staggering amount of food that took a staggering amount of Chinese labor to produce.  Again, its merely shielded from our eyes.  Most are not even aware that the food they buy in the grocery store is Chinese, because labeling does not require much fresh produce to be labeled as to its origin.  Nor does it require the origin of parts of processed food to be labeled.  If anyone cares, that apple juice is Chinese.  That Vitamin C is from mainland China.  Mainland China is a mega farmer of USDA organic (its just a label, not actually an indicator of where it was grown, woops!).
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Archer on January 10, 2019, 11:00:27 PM
I actually agree with a lot of your points.
As someone with an MBA, I understand the value of education.

I also understand and value manual labor. I think there is a place for education, just as there is a place for plumbers, electricians, and "waste managers."

I believe one of the biggest lies told to the last couple generations is, "you need to go to college."

But does that mean no one should go to college? Absolutely not. We need good leaders, good lawyers, good teachers, good doctors, just like we need good construction workers. It should all balance out.

You know it isn't balanced however, because 44 million "students" owe a combined $1.5 Trillion, while trades sit empty. https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university

I value manual labor too, but it's simply a fact there is and will be less demand for it in the future.  The idea that everyone can and should get a job in manual labor is not realistic.

That’s so clearly not what I said.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Gardener on January 10, 2019, 11:24:15 PM
In our lifetime and the lifetimes of our children, there will remain a demand for skilled trades of the modern-classic variety (welding, plumbing, electrician, etc.).

Those things are not currently able to be automated, and require rationality in a way which is not yet programmable nor at what current AI can do in a market-based sense. Maybe, just maybe, in a lab environment. But real world? No way.

Most people have no business in college, and college needs to get away from being a business.

But no fear, a global pandemic that is untreatable with medication will take care of most of those useless degree holders. :D



Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: diaduit on January 11, 2019, 04:43:52 AM
At what age do you start encouraging your child to develop their Faith and morals, to stand up to the modern sinning society?  when does mammy let their son be responsible for their own soul?
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Gardener on January 11, 2019, 05:45:26 AM
I actually agree with a lot of your points.
As someone with an MBA, I understand the value of education.

I also understand and value manual labor. I think there is a place for education, just as there is a place for plumbers, electricians, and "waste managers."

I believe one of the biggest lies told to the last couple generations is, "you need to go to college."

But does that mean no one should go to college? Absolutely not. We need good leaders, good lawyers, good teachers, good doctors, just like we need good construction workers. It should all balance out.

You know it isn't balanced however, because 44 million "students" owe a combined $1.5 Trillion, while trades sit empty. https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university

I value manual labor too, but it's simply a fact there is and will be less demand for it in the future.  The idea that everyone can and should get a job in manual labor is not realistic.

Manual labor did not disappear, it simply moved to China which employs hundreds of millions in factory labor.  It moved to South America and Southeast Asian countries which employ countless in farming food for Americans to eat.  America is the empire and is largely shielded from seeing the vast quantity of manual labor it takes to live the American suburban life.  That labor still goes on, its just 10,000 miles away - out of sight out of mind.  I note that the story-of-the-day, which is Amazon, is not about how to produce things, its merely how to use technology to get things which are already produced to us.  But without that Chinaman first making it, it isn't around for Amazon & UPS' robots to quickly get to our doorstep.

If America was not run by short-sighted oligarchs for oligarchs then perhaps it would fix its trade practices and then the manual labor, which never evaporated, merely relocated, would be seen in America again.  Over 90% of seafood eaten in America is from overseas.  We have two gigantic oceans, plentiful rivers and lakes, a big gulf, and yet we do not employ men to fish it.  Did we stop eating fish?  No, we just are the empire and have opted to have others do it for us, and rack up colossal debt to do so.  In 2017 we apparently imported the largest amount of seafood ever, 6 billion pounds worth, valued at over $22 billion USD - all of that manual labor to produce such vast a mountain of fish was performed, and will be performed going forward, but its merely shielded from Americans' sensitive eyes.  That labor could be done by Americans.

The U.S. imports over 4 billion pounds of food from China each year.  Its a staggering amount of food that took a staggering amount of Chinese labor to produce.  Again, its merely shielded from our eyes.  Most are not even aware that the food they buy in the grocery store is Chinese, because labeling does not require much fresh produce to be labeled as to its origin.  Nor does it require the origin of parts of processed food to be labeled.  If anyone cares, that apple juice is Chinese.  That Vitamin C is from mainland China.  Mainland China is a mega farmer of USDA organic (its just a label, not actually an indicator of where it was grown, woops!).

Ooh! Ooh! Do the UK next! They're way better than the US at food importation. We only import ~15% but that cantankerous (and hungry!) Limey lot import 48% (https://www.foodsecurity.ac.uk/challenge/uk-threat/)! We screw up our numbers by exporting ALOT too :(

Based on your post, we practically produce nothing and that's patently untrue.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Kreuzritter on January 11, 2019, 06:57:34 AM
During the High Middle Ages, a typical peasant could house, feed and clothe his family to a reasonable level by the standards of the time by working for only two-thirds of the year. 

Yes, and what were those "standards of the time" (rather horrible) and what was nature of that work for that "two-thirds of the year" (grueling)?

https://www.lostkingdom.net/the-life-of-a-villager-during-the-middle-ages/


Lostkingdom.com in its own words: "Worldbuilding, Roleplaying and Fantasy Writing Resources". Yeah, talk about shooting oneself in the foot before even getting ones gun out its holster, smartass.

Quote
Eight centuries of annual hours
13th century - Adult male peasant, U.K.: 1620 hours

Calculated from Gregory Clark's estimate of 150 days per family, assumes 12 hours per day, 135 days per year for adult male ("Impatience, Poverty, and Open Field Agriculture", mimeo, 1986)

14th century - Casual laborer, U.K.: 1440 hours

Calculated from Nora Ritchie's estimate of 120 days per year. Assumes 12-hour day. ("Labour conditions in Essex in the reign of Richard II", in E.M. Carus-Wilson, ed., Essays in Economic History, vol. II, London: Edward Arnold, 1962).

Middle ages - English worker: 2309 hours

Juliet Schor's estime of average medieval laborer working two-thirds of the year at 9.5 hours per day

1400-1600 - Farmer-miner, adult male, U.K.: 1980 hours

Calculated from Ian Blanchard's estimate of 180 days per year. Assumes 11-hour day ("Labour productivity and work psychology in the English mining industry, 1400-1600", Economic History Review 31, 23 (1978).

1840 - Average worker, U.K.: 3105-3588 hours

Based on 69-hour week; hours from W.S. Woytinsky, "Hours of labor," in Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, vol. III (New York: Macmillan, 1935). Low estimate assumes 45 week year, high one assumes 52 week year

1850 - Average worker, U.S.: 3150-3650 hours

Based on 70-hour week; hours from Joseph Zeisel, "The workweek in American industry, 1850-1956", Monthly Labor Review 81, 23-29 (1958). Low estimate assumes 45 week year, high one assumes 52 week year

1987 - Average worker, U.S.: 1949 hours

From The Overworked American: The Unexpected Decline of Leisure, by Juliet B. Schor, Table 2.4

1988 - Manufacturing workers, U.K.: 1856 hours

Calculated from Bureau of Labor Statistics data, Office of Productivity and Technology

http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html (http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html)

Nobody in his right state of mind would deny that life today for the average Westerner is world's apart from that of the Middle Ages in terms of material comfort and stability. But your characterisation of work then is simply wrong, and your estimation of the marginal utility of hours spent working in the field to avoid a failed crop doesn't really make sense to me, especially given that most famines in those times were caused by unavoidable weather factors and population pressure, but then I'm not too knowledgeable about agriculture and crop farming. Are you?.

Quote
Quote
The claims  of the Protestant reformers and others re the Middle Ages is mere 'victor's propaganda'.

Of course.  Anything that reflects poorly on the golden Middle Ages must be mere propaganda.

That's  not what he said.


Quote
So this is all anti-Catholic Masonic propaganda I suppose.  Nobody really died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1315%E2%80%9317

But you're welcome to your delusions.  The rest of us will get along with living our lives.

What's your point?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II)

?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-018-0078-0 (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-018-0078-0)

Quote
We analyse in detail the famines in England, France and Italy during 1300–1850, and find strong evidence that before 1710 high population pressure on resources was by far the most frequent remote cause of famines (while the proximate cause was almost invariably meteorological).

What does any this have to do with traditional social and familial structures and ideas of adequate manhood? How are these linked to inferior methods of agricultural production of the Middle Ages? And what does lauding Medieval Zeitgeist and values have to do with wanting to travel back in time to live as a Medieval peasant?


Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: dymphnaw on January 11, 2019, 09:56:20 AM
 
[/quote]

No, he's not wrong. The idea of children who have come of age moving out of the family home and going their own way as the normal course of things is absolutely a modern American idea that has now been popularised through the global dominance of Anglo-American culture. The historical norm in Europe was for sons to remain with and support the family and for daughters to only move out when married - to the home of the husband livign with his parents. The points on the the delayed maturity of younger generations aside, it's wrong to project radically individualistic Anglo-American notions of the normal course of life onto the rest of the world.
[/quote]
 America was founded by people who left England and Europe never to see their parents again and then it was won by people who went West and never saw their families again. I know of an elderly couple who have a 30 year old son still at home. He's works but contributes nothing. He's lazy and lives like he did when he was five. I also know a man who lived with his mother until she died but he was taking care of her financially and let his girlfriend know that his disabled mother would have a home with him or the marriage was off.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: The Harlequin King on January 11, 2019, 10:48:50 AM
America was founded by people who left England and Europe never to see their parents again and then it was won by people who went West and never saw their families again.

This really distills the entire difference between Europe and the US in one sentence. That said, the more generations we're removed from the pioneers, the more America becomes like the empires of old. (Just as Europe grew fat and decadent the further it was removed from the nomadic Goths, the Norman Conquest, the Vikings, whatever you like.)

Quote
I know of an elderly couple who have a 30 year old son still at home. He's works but contributes nothing. He's lazy and lives like he did when he was five. I also know a man who lived with his mother until she died but he was taking care of her financially and let his girlfriend know that his disabled mother would have a home with him or the marriage was off.

Yes. Circumstances are everything.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Kreuzritter on January 11, 2019, 10:59:35 AM
America was founded by people who left England and Europe never to see their parents again and then it was won by people who went West and never saw their families again.

Yes, we know: rootless Protestants who spat on tradition and had no qualms about committing systematic genocide against reprobate inferior races in order to win the West. They even constructed a pseudo-theology out of it, namely American Exceptionalism, with the caveat that "American" meant "white" and "not Catholic", just like the Calvinists did in South Africa.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Kreuzritter on January 11, 2019, 11:04:35 AM
This really distills the entire difference between Europe and the US in one sentence. That said, the more generations we're removed from the pioneers, the more America becomes like the empires of old. (Just as Europe grew fat and decadent the further it was removed from the nomadic Goths, the Norman Conquest, the Vikings, whatever you like.)

Because raping, looting, pillaging pagans who liked a bit human sacrifice to top off their sport of "kill the Christian" weren't decadent ...

Between pre-Christian barbarism and post-Christian barbarism sits, of all things, Christianity.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: The Harlequin King on January 11, 2019, 11:12:46 AM
This really distills the entire difference between Europe and the US in one sentence. That said, the more generations we're removed from the pioneers, the more America becomes like the empires of old. (Just as Europe grew fat and decadent the further it was removed from the nomadic Goths, the Norman Conquest, the Vikings, whatever you like.)

Because raping, looting, pillaging pagans who liked a bit human sacrifice to top off their sport of "kill the Christian" weren't decadent ...

Between pre-Christian barbarism and post-Christian barbarism sits, of all things, Christianity.

Responses like this are why I don't post on Internet forums much anymore. This kind of anonymous snark, even towards people who agree with each other, has gotten old. Early in this thread, I commented with my general support of the idea of inter-generational living. I even like the idea of communal living with non-relatives. But I also understand why many Americans value the idea of independent living.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: dymphnaw on January 11, 2019, 11:18:53 AM
But America is different just like France is different from Lativia and Italy is different from Poland. People who were sick of endless war and penjury in Europe left and from 1607 on to the Ellis Island era they were familiar with having to leave their families and start fresh across the ocean. For good or for ill, the concept of leaving home to seek your fortune is ingrained.  And not all the colonists were Protestant. My Irish ancestors made it on their own in South Carolina in the 1800s. One more thing. The Catholic Spanish weren't all that great to the Indians. Look at TV on any Spanish channel and the heroine is always a Castilian Rose and the comic figure is always short, squat and dark. I can't think of any former  Catholic colonies from Haiti, New Orleans, Miami to  Honduras that aren't known for corruption, cruelty, violent crime  and poverty. 
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Vetus Ordo on January 11, 2019, 12:03:49 PM
America was founded by people who left England and Europe never to see their parents again and then it was won by people who went West and never saw their families again.

Not just America. All of the New World.

It was part of the deal. The colonization period was a time rich in adventure and exploration, a time that doesn't come back and that can only be replicated if we were to colonize different planets in the future.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Archer on January 11, 2019, 01:50:15 PM
Responses like this are why I don't post on Internet forums much anymore. This kind of anonymous snark, even towards people who agree with each other, has gotten old. Early in this thread, I commented with my general support of the idea of inter-generational living. I even like the idea of communal living with non-relatives. But I also understand why many Americans value the idea of independent living.

Same here.
Reading comprehension seems to have also taken a dive.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Heinrich on January 11, 2019, 02:28:05 PM
Well, I am glad you are both commenting here.

Patriots!
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Archer on January 11, 2019, 02:46:18 PM
Well, I am glad you are both commenting here.

Patriots!

Unfortunately my allegiance has somewhat shifted over the last couple years.
I still follow the Patriots, but we've put down roots in Kansas City. Got to cheer for Pat Mahomes and the Chiefs.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: james03 on January 11, 2019, 06:31:32 PM
Quote
and had no qualms about committing systematic genocide against reprobate inferior races in order to win the West.
  Do you really want to go there?  The treatment of Incas by Spanish settlers was far worse.  We even have that Saint who worked in Colombia trying to help out the slaves there.

One place Catholics can brag is in Canada where French treatment of the heathen was far better than the English.  But South America was a catastrophe.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Vetus Ordo on January 11, 2019, 06:35:43 PM
But South America was a catastrophe.

It depends on the perspective.

We could see it as a cleansing of the land, pretty much like Canaan had to be cleansed before the Israelites settled there.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: james03 on January 11, 2019, 06:42:30 PM
Quote
At what age do you start encouraging your child to develop their Faith and morals, to stand up to the modern sinning society?  when does mammy let their son be responsible for their own soul?

1.  It starts with family prayer.
2.  Grace before meals.  Make sure when you eat out, you all say Grace before meals in public.  Tell your kids they are sissies if they don't do this when you aren't around.
3.  Mockery of the heathens.  If you see the blue haired creature stalking around, point the spectacle out to the kids and tell them that's what happens to people who turn their back on God.
4.  Draw their attention to immorality and let them know it is out there.
5.  Boys should know how to fight.  They will be made fun of for being normal, so they need to stand up for themselves.
6.  Encourage marriage at a young age to a good Trad.  Boys should know that they have a duty to support their families.  Girls should be taught to be on the look out for guys who have their stuff together.  If only there was a Catholic man out there who would teach young men to be both attractive to females and also have their lives in order so they can support a family.  Hmmmm....

Dad should play a big part in this, but Mom has her part to play also.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Sen on January 11, 2019, 08:50:29 PM
America was founded by people who left England and Europe never to see their parents again and then it was won by people who went West and never saw their families again.

Yes, we know: rootless Protestants who spat on tradition and had no qualms about committing systematic genocide against reprobate inferior races in order to win the West. They even constructed a pseudo-theology out of it, namely American Exceptionalism, with the caveat that "American" meant "white" and "not Catholic", just like the Calvinists did in South Africa.

Lol, most Native Indians were wiped out by disease. And no, not from the “smallpox blanket” myth. And the only reason Africans even experienced a population explosion is due to the white man feeding, watering, and medicating them. The gripes they have with the white Protestant are the same ones they have with the white Catholic, e.g., Catholic Belgian Congo. Not to mention, Protestant English colonizers are almost universally seen as more benevolent than the Catholic French, and it shows in the South and Southeast Asian countries.

It is odd that you seem to have more distain for Protestants than for pagan savages who have no love for Catholics themselves. Do you have such an inferiority complex toward the WASP that you must try to find some solidarity with the brown pagan savage in order to feel better about yourself?
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: james03 on January 11, 2019, 09:27:02 PM
Quote
It depends on the perspective.

We could see it as a cleansing of the land, pretty much like Canaan had to be cleansed before the Israelites settled there.
  It's difficult theologically.  The one thing I will say is that Cortez gets a bad wrap.  The man was a man among men and a good Catholic.  He was dealing with the Aztec.  From my reading of history, what happened to the Incas (Cortez was not involved) was excessive.

But if we look at it like a cleansing, then you can't blame Prots for doing the same thing.  Which perhaps you don't.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Vetus Ordo on January 11, 2019, 09:52:11 PM
Quote
It depends on the perspective.

We could see it as a cleansing of the land, pretty much like Canaan had to be cleansed before the Israelites settled there.
  It's difficult theologically.  The one thing I will say is that Cortez gets a bad wrap.  The man was a man among men and a good Catholic.  He was dealing with the Aztec.  From my reading of history, what happened to the Incas (Cortez was not involved) was excessive.

But if we look at it like a cleansing, then you can't blame Prots for doing the same thing.  Which perhaps you don't.

You're correct. I don't.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: coffeeandcigarette on January 12, 2019, 07:12:34 AM

America also perpetuates the belief that if you cannot make it on your own, you are a loser and have failed at life.  Again, not Catholic, as the purpose of life is to get to Heaven, and bring as many other souls there as you can.  America focuses on the material and looks down upon those whom have not the material success they have, all the while missing the big picture (perhaps because American society was formed by a bunch of people whom believed in sola fide, double predestination, and generic deism).

Exactly! Same with the whole "college" scam. Make everyone feel like a loser if they don't buy what your selling, and you have won the game.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Gardener on January 12, 2019, 07:23:26 AM
The Spanish, much like the Americans would later, and much like many nations continue to do in their proxy wars, utilized enemy tribes in fighting against other natives.

To simply blame the Spanish for something like this is as myopic as not talking about the Arab and African involvement in the West African slave trade, as if whites were completely at fault.

Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: coffeeandcigarette on January 12, 2019, 09:49:51 AM
I can't think of any former  Catholic colonies from Haiti, New Orleans, Miami to  Honduras that aren't known for corruption, cruelty, violent crime  and poverty.

To be fair, the colonizing power in Haiti was overthrown by a black slave leader. He went on to become far more corrupt, violent, selfish, and brutal than any overlord ever was. He built himself a palace on the blood and tears of his former brothers and set up a dynasty of his own. His legacy had made Haiti what it is.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Heinrich on January 12, 2019, 12:34:50 PM
Well, I am glad you are both commenting here.

Patriots!

Unfortunately my allegiance has somewhat shifted over the last couple years.
I still follow the Patriots, but we've put down roots in Kansas City. Got to cheer for Pat Mahomes and the Chiefs.

Glad to hear that you are ensconced in a TLM friendly area. 

But the Chefs, really? Dude.

Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: christulsa on January 12, 2019, 08:36:53 PM
1. Have your boy work as early as he can, 12 yo. Mowing lawns 

2. Have him learn a trade while still in high school.

3. Have him do apprentice like work the couple summers before high school graduation.

4. After 18 yo, he must always be either working or in school.  For most that would mean a trade.

5.  Then it would be highly unlikely the boy will still act like a “boy” after 18, or be a basement dweller.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Heinrich on January 12, 2019, 09:31:59 PM
1. Have your boy work as early as he can, 12 yo. Mowing lawns 

2. Have him learn a trade while still in high school.

3. Have him do apprentice like work the couple summers before high school graduation.

4. After 18 yo, he must always be either working or in school.  For most that would mean a trade.

5.  Then it would be highly unlikely the boy will still act like a “boy” after 18, or be a basement dweller.

When I grew up in Indiana, if you weren't a "college boy," this was status quo for most.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Archer on January 14, 2019, 09:03:24 AM
Well, I am glad you are both commenting here.

Patriots!

Unfortunately my allegiance has somewhat shifted over the last couple years.
I still follow the Patriots, but we've put down roots in Kansas City. Got to cheer for Pat Mahomes and the Chiefs.


Glad to hear that you are ensconced in a TLM friendly area. 

But the Chefs, really? Dude.

Says the Bronco's fan...
For being such a don himself, Elway really is terrible at picking QBs.

(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2018/10/02/USAT/668488dd-c93b-46b1-92fb-57c7289b5210-USATSI_11358570.jpg?crop=2001,2406,x661,y190&width=534&height=712&fit=bounds&auto=webp)
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: The Harlequin King on January 14, 2019, 01:43:23 PM
6.  Encourage marriage at a young age to a good Trad.

I agree with most of your points. I wish I could agree with this one too, but.... meh. Marrying young is probably fine if the kids all have happily married Catholic parents and grew up in loving, devout, fully functional households--and I'm sure that's primarily what you had in mind. But the further one gets from this background, the worse of an idea marrying young becomes. I always encourage "normal" people to wait until after 30 to marry.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Archer on January 14, 2019, 03:02:44 PM
Marrying young is probably fine if the kids all have happily married Catholic parents and grew up in loving, devout, fully functional households--and I'm sure that's primarily what you had in mind.

To be honest, I'm skeptical of this now. I think it is completely dependent on maturity - not age.
A family member got married young to another trad.
First real love, "this is it."
Was even encouraged by her parents, who ignored the warnings of the rest of the family. I won't say too much more. To the rest of the Catholic world they have a good marriage. To the family who know details she has, and will continue, to struggle mightily.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: The Harlequin King on January 14, 2019, 04:32:36 PM
To be honest, I'm skeptical of this now. I think it is completely dependent on maturity - not age.

Well, yes. I'm skeptical of a great many things now. Some people don't have their heads on straight even at 40+.

My point was mostly that there are plenty of reasons why marriages even between two young trads can be a total trainwreck waiting to happen. A big one is, I think, being converts or otherwise growing up in a broken family. The ability to know what every ecumenical council said about this-or-that heresy just can't magically undo 20+ years of bad examples at home.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: dymphnaw on January 14, 2019, 04:46:40 PM
[/quote]  Do you really want to go there?  The treatment of Incas by Spanish settlers was far worse.  We even have that Saint who worked in Colombia trying to help out the slaves there.

One place Catholics can brag is in Canada where French treatment of the heathen was far better than the English.  But South America was a catastrophe.
[/quote]


I'm not so sure about that. I read Canadian news and sites and the First Nations don't seem to happy to me and the uncensored comments of Canadians seem to be anywhere from outright hostile to Indians to being merely annoyed whenever an Indian appears on TV.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: The Curt Jester on January 14, 2019, 05:06:27 PM
If there is no reason to depart, then stay at home. Moving out to stay in the same location is a waste of money that could be better spent. I moved out when I got a job out of town, but previously, when I worked local jobs, I stayed with my family.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Archer on January 15, 2019, 09:33:45 AM
To be honest, I'm skeptical of this now. I think it is completely dependent on maturity - not age.

Well, yes. I'm skeptical of a great many things now. Some people don't have their heads on straight even at 40+.

My point was mostly that there are plenty of reasons why marriages even between two young trads can be a total trainwreck waiting to happen. A big one is, I think, being converts or otherwise growing up in a broken family. The ability to know what every ecumenical council said about this-or-that heresy just can't magically undo 20+ years of bad examples at home.

....Or 20+ years of immaturity, or ignorance, or naivety, or stupidity.
Never mind debt, career selection, or general laziness. The fact that you share Tradition is not a magic wand to a successful marriage.

Although it certainly can help. It's so important for Catholic parents to live their vocation, and eliminate the distractions outside of their control. Focus on raising Catholic Saints.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: MundaCorMeum on January 15, 2019, 01:55:39 PM
To be honest, I'm skeptical of this now. I think it is completely dependent on maturity - not age.

Well, yes. I'm skeptical of a great many things now. Some people don't have their heads on straight even at 40+.

My point was mostly that there are plenty of reasons why marriages even between two young trads can be a total trainwreck waiting to happen. A big one is, I think, being converts or otherwise growing up in a broken family. The ability to know what every ecumenical council said about this-or-that heresy just can't magically undo 20+ years of bad examples at home.

....Or 20+ years of immaturity, or ignorance, or naivety, or stupidity.
Never mind debt, career selection, or general laziness. The fact that you share Tradition is not a magic wand to a successful marriage.

Although it certainly can help. It's so important for Catholic parents to live their vocation, and eliminate the distractions outside of their control. Focus on raising Catholic Saints.

This always sounds so much easier than it actually is  ;D
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Archer on January 15, 2019, 02:06:58 PM
Don't I know it.
Our 2 year old kicked my butt yesterday. I was not a shining example of patience.  :doh:
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Gardener on January 15, 2019, 02:09:48 PM
Don't I know it.
Our 2 year old kicked my butt yesterday. I was not a shining example of patience.  :doh:

Try my "drunken exchange student midget" method of parenting.
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: MundaCorMeum on January 15, 2019, 05:26:54 PM
Don't I know it.
Our 2 year old kicked my butt yesterday. I was not a shining example of patience.  :doh:

ALL of mine are kicking my butt today!  I won't tell you how many times I lost my temper.  Thank goodness the 10 year old had an orthodontist appt this afternoon, and we needed an oil change.  I might've had to just up and leave without an excuse  :crazy:
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: MundaCorMeum on January 15, 2019, 05:27:26 PM
Don't I know it.
Our 2 year old kicked my butt yesterday. I was not a shining example of patience.  :doh:

Try my "drunken exchange student midget" method of parenting.

This always sounds so much easier than it actually is  ;D
Title: Re: Age boys need to leave
Post by: Gardener on January 24, 2019, 04:53:52 PM
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