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The Church Courtyard => Non-Catholic Discussion Subforum => Topic started by: Xavier on December 29, 2018, 02:16:15 AM

Title: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Xavier on December 29, 2018, 02:16:15 AM
In another thread, we saw some of the ways in which our friends who are Jews could be helped to come to Christ and the Church. Here, let's examine what are some of the best ways to present the Gospel of Christ to Muslims.

As a reminder, Muslims profess to believe (Islamism imho is a corrupted form of Arianism) (1) that there is one God, and in Abraham, Moses and the Prophets (2) that Jesus was a great Prophet and born of the Virgin Mary (3) that Mother Mary was a very holy Woman (some will even say sinless). But on the other reject that (1) that Jesus was God. And reject faith in (2) the Holy Trinity (3) in the crucifixion of Christ, and in Holy Baptism and the Sacraments etc. Instead their Muhammed taught them Christ was a holy Man but only a man and not divine.

St. John Damascene and St. Thomas Aquinas have written material directed at and helpful for Muslims enquiring into Christianity. Sometimes they focus on (1) Christ's clearly having worked public miracles, compared to the first Muslims themselves admitting Mohammed did not do so (2) Christ's having fulfilled (and pointed to) passages where Moses and all the Prophets spoke of Him, compared to Mohammeds failure to do the same; (3) beside Christ's clear testimony to Himself as the divine Son of God, which Islam denies; finally (4) the crucifixion as hiatorical fact, witnessed by St. John and Mother Mary etc

Thoughts? Any other ideas/suggestions/tips you've found useful.

Quote from: St. John Damascene
But when we ask: ‘And who is there to testify that God gave him the book? And which of the prophets foretold that such a prophet would rise up?’—they are at a loss. And we remark that Moses received the Law on Mount Sinai, with God appearing in the sight of all the people in cloud, and fire, and darkness, and storm. And we say that all the Prophets from Moses on down foretold the coming of Christ and how Christ God (and incarnate Son of God) was to come and to be crucified and die and rise again, and how He was to be the judge of the living and dead. Then, when we say: ‘How is it that this prophet of yours did not come in the same way, with others bearing witness to him? And how is it that God did not in your presence present this man with the book to which you refer, even as He gave the Law to Moses, with the people looking on and the mountain smoking, so that you, too, might have certainty?’ ...

“When we ask again: ‘How is it that when he enjoined us in this book of yours not to do anything or receive anything without witnesses, you did not ask him: “First do you show us by witnesses that you are a prophet and that you have come from God, and show us just what Scriptures there are that testify about you”’—they are ashamed and remain silent.”

And again we say to them: ‘As long as you say that Christ is the Word of God and Spirit, why do you accuse us of being Hetaeriasts? For the word, and the spirit, is inseparable from that in which it naturally has existence. Therefore, if the Word of God is in God, then it is obvious that He is God. If, however, He is outside of God, then, according to you, God is without word and without spirit ...

Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas
On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth.

On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: TheReturnofLive on December 29, 2018, 03:56:26 PM
Don't forget John Bosco.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Michael Wilson on January 13, 2019, 11:02:13 AM
How about mentioning the fact that Mohamed married and consumated a marriage with a nine year old girl.
'Warning, this is very strong' https://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm
Quote

I needed to edit and correct this article because I’ve learned some new details. Initially, I believed what many Muslims asserted: Muhammad sexually consummated his marriage to the nine year old Aisha following her first menstruation. HOWEVER, after reading brother Sam Shamoun’s articles (1, 2), I realized that the Quran, the Hadith, and Muslim scholar’s writings state that a Muslim husband can engage in sex with a child-bride before she has her first menses. Further, Muhammad actually did just this – he had intercourse with Aisha prior to her first menses!
1) INTRODUCTION

Picture this historical setting: A 49 year old man asks his best friend if he could have his permission to marry his 6 year old daughter. His friend agrees. The man then visits his best friend’s house and speaks with the 6 year old daughter. Her parents watch as the he proposes marriage to the child. He is serious; he wants to marry the little girl and is asking for her consent. The little child says nothing; she only stares at him in silence.

The Islamic source materials state that Muhammad proposed marriage to Aisha when she was 6. He assumed her silence constituted her consent. Some 2 to 3 years later, just after he had fled to Medina, he consummated his marriage with her. He was 52 and she was 9. This occurred prior to Aisha’s first menses and by Islam’s legal definition Aisha was still considered a child. Islam teaches that a child enters adulthood at the beginning of puberty. (This is scientifically inaccurate, the onset of puberty does not equal adulthood – see Appendix 3).

The bottom line is Muhammad, the creator of Islam, revered by his followers, had sex with a child! Worse, Muhammad's action and teachings on marriage established an Islamic precedent and Islamic law allows female children to be married off and engaged in sex provided they are able to handle a man’s penis (Quran 65:4). As will be shown, this leads to physical, and psychological, damage to the child.
Borrowing from Sam’s work (*) I quote three Islamic scholars commentary related to 65:4 and the subject of sex with prepubescent children:

Ibn Kathir writes regarding 65:4

    <divorce them at their `Iddah>, "The `Iddah is made up of cleanliness and the menstrual period." So he divorces her while it is clear that she is pregnant, or he does not due to having sex, or since he does not know if she is pregnant or not. This is why the scholars said that there are two types of divorce, one that conforms to the Sunnah and another innovated. The divorce that conforms to the Sunnah is one where the husband pronounces one divorce to his wife when she is not having her menses and without having had sexual intercourse with her after the menses ended. One could divorce his wife when it is clear that she is pregnant. As for the innovated divorce, it occurs when one divorces his wife when she is having her menses, or after the menses ends, has sexual intercourse with her and then divorces her, even though he does not know if she became pregnant or not. There is a third type of divorce, which is neither a Sunnah nor an innovation where one divorces A YOUNG WIFE WHO HAS NOT BEGUN TO HAVE MENSES, the wife who is beyond the age of having menses, and divorcing one's wife before the marriage was consummated. (Source; bold and capital emphasis ours)

Al-Tabari said regarding 65:4

    The interpretation of the verse "And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise". He said: The same applies to the 'idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.

    Tafseer al-Tabari, 14/142 (Source: Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)
    (Question #12708: Is it acceptable to marry a girl who has not yet started her menses?)

Regarding sex with prepubescent children, Abu-Ala’ Maududi states:

    "Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl at this age but it is permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur’an has held as permissible." (Maududi, volume 5, p. 620, note 13, emphasis added)

It is clear: Muslim men can engage in sex with prepubescent children!
This increases the weight and scope of my argument and places Muhammad and Islam in a far darker, more disreputable, light. Many Muslims don’t know this and by their own standards Muhammad did the wrong thing in having sex with a child. Muslims have to answer for their continued support for Muhammad because he transgresses their standards. When children are allowed to be used for sex then that is sexual exploitation; so why do they support the creator and establishment of a system that entrenches the abuse and sexual exploitation of children?

I am not trying to use cheap polemics. Surely you realize that for children there are painful ramifications behind Muhammad’s action. They need to be discussed in detail and in context. It might be offensive to some but it needs to be discussed...
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Vetus Ordo on January 13, 2019, 09:45:55 PM
How about mentioning the fact that Mohamed married and consumated a marriage with a nine year old girl.

Old news. This was not unusual at the time.

Consummation, however, only occurred after puberty, as Islamic law teaches. The age where the girl reached puberty varies according to time and place. Aisha's puberty was exceptionally precocious.

According to apocryphal traditions that gained popularity throughout the ages, the Blessed Virgin is thought to have married St. Joseph when she was just between 12 or 14 years old while he was 90 years old (Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm)). This sort of age discrepancy in marriage did not become taboo until much later on in the West.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: TheReturnofLive on January 13, 2019, 10:25:56 PM
Why should they bother converting? They worship the same Merciful God who will Judge Mankind on the Last Day, according to Vatican II and Saint Pope Paul VI, Saint Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict.

It's a sin against Ecumenism to do this, Xavier, and you know better, as His Holiness Pope Francis says. Submit to the Vicar of Christ. Pope Benedict XVI, another Vicar of Christ, the Traditional Pope himself, who wonderfully with great joy allowed the Tridentine Mass, says the Theology of the Return was expressly abandoned by Vatican II.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Acolyte on January 13, 2019, 10:50:40 PM
The internet must certainly be having an impact. Women are oppressed in Moslem countries and they can now see a picture of Christian culture they had been sheltered from in the past.

https://www.christianheadlines.com/contributors/michael-foust/iranians-disillusioned-with-islam-are-fleeing-country-converting-to-christianity.html
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Xavier on January 13, 2019, 11:06:34 PM
Quote
It's a sin against Ecumenism to do this, Xavier

Nice one! :cheeseheadbeer:

From failing to commit these "sins against Ecumenism", deliver us, O Lord.

That we may always "sin against Ecumenism", we beseech Thee, O Lord.
 :cheeseheadbeer:

Btw, Ecumenism is only supposed to be among baptized Christians who believe in (and have been baptized into) the Trinity according to Unitatis Redeintegratio. In pre Vatican II documents like a Holy Office directive under Pope Pius XII, it is said even of them, "It should be made clear to them that, in returning to the Church, they will lose nothing of that good which by the grace of God has hitherto been implanted in them, but that it will rather be supplemented and completed by their return. However, one should not speak of this in such a way that they will imagine that in returning to the Church they are bringing to it something substantial which it has hitherto lacked. It will be necessary to say these things clearly and openly, first because it is the truth that they themselves are seeking, and moreover because outside the truth no true union can ever be attained" which is clear and perfect.

"The missionaries of the 16th century were convinced that the unbaptized person is lost forever. After the [Second Vatican] Council, this conviction was definitely abandoned. The result was a two-sided, deep crisis. Without this attentiveness to the salvation, the Faith loses its foundation. https://catholicism.org/pope-emeritus-speaks-on-necessity-of-baptism-and-no-salvation-outside-the-church.html

"Pope Benedict asks the piercing question that arose after this palpable change of attitude of the Church: “Why should you try to convince the people to accept the Christian faith when they can be saved even without it?” As to the other consequences of this new attitude in the Church, the Catholics themselves, in Benedict’s eyes, are less attached to their Faith: If there are those who can save their souls with other means, “why should the the Christian be bound to the necessity of the Christian Faith and its morality?” asked the pope. And he concludes: “But if Faith and Salvation are not any more interdependent, even Faith becomes less motivating.”

"The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero. The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of superdogma which takes away the importance of all the rest."

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI
given July 13, 1988, in Santiago, Chile

While people still argue over what Vatican II and the CCC say and do not say about EENS, it is clear traditionally people are not saved without faith in Christ, knowledge and love of Him as true God, contrition for one's sins, especially if one rejected the Truth, and desire for Baptism.

Quote from: CCC
Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Mission - a requirement of the Church's catholicity

849 The missionary mandate. "Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be 'the universal sacrament of salvation,' the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men":339 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age."340
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Michael Wilson on January 13, 2019, 11:17:17 PM
How about mentioning the fact that Mohamed married and consumated a marriage with a nine year old girl.

Old news. This was not unusual at the time.

Consummation, however, only occurred after puberty, as Islamic law teaches. The age where the girl reached puberty varies according to time and place. Aisha's puberty was exceptionally precocious.

According to apocryphal traditions that gained popularity throughout the ages, the Blessed Virgin is thought to have married St. Joseph when she was just between 12 or 14 years old while he was 90 years old (Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm)). This sort of age discrepancy in marriage did not become taboo until much later on in the West.
Old news, but important, even the Moslesms recognize that having sex with a pre-pubescent girl is a no-no.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Vetus Ordo on January 13, 2019, 11:53:18 PM
How about mentioning the fact that Mohamed married and consumated a marriage with a nine year old girl.

Old news. This was not unusual at the time.

Consummation, however, only occurred after puberty, as Islamic law teaches. The age where the girl reached puberty varies according to time and place. Aisha's puberty was exceptionally precocious.

According to apocryphal traditions that gained popularity throughout the ages, the Blessed Virgin is thought to have married St. Joseph when she was just between 12 or 14 years old while he was 90 years old (Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm)). This sort of age discrepancy in marriage did not become taboo until much later on in the West.

Old news, but important, even the Moslesms recognize that having sex with a pre-pubescent girl is a no-no.

Aisha is not recorded as being prepubescent when Muhammad consummated their marriage. She experienced a precocious puberty at 9 years of age.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Michael Wilson on January 14, 2019, 12:10:37 AM
Not according to the site that I linked to, which sites various Muslism documents. Plus also citing Muslim law, which allows marriage and divorce with pre-pubescent women.

here is part of what I already posted above:
''There is a third type of divorce, which is neither a Sunnah nor an innovation where one divorces A YOUNG WIFE WHO HAS NOT BEGUN TO HAVE MENSES, the wife who is beyond the age of having menses, and divorcing one's wife before the marriage was consummated. (Source; bold and capital emphasis ours)

Al-Tabari said regarding 65:4

    The interpretation of the verse "And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise". He said: The same applies to the 'idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them."
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Vetus Ordo on January 14, 2019, 01:32:54 AM
Not according to the site that I linked to, which sites various Muslism documents.

The site that you linked to is "Answering Islam", an apologetic platform of Evangelical Christians. Useful in some respects but not exactly an unbiased scholarly resource on Islam.

Islamic Law, the Shariah, is a vast body of jurisprudence based on the Qur'an, the Hadiths and the Sunnah of Muhammad. Compiled, cross-referenced, matured, etc., over many centuries of communal experience and legal disputes. So, if you're in doubt, you can be sure that if something is prescribed in the Shariah, then it is in accordance with the sources. Simply quoting verses from the Qur'an or some Hadiths, etc., won't do much to understand an issue.

As far as Islamic sexual jurisprudence is concerned, the girl may not live with the husband until she is fit to engage in sexual intercourse. This threshold is puberty, or sexually maturity properly speaking.

However, to avoid further confusion, Islamic legal terminology defines puberty (bulugh) for women as the moment she has her first period, regardless of whether she is sexually mature or not. The period itself, however, is not a condition for marriage; sexual maturity is the decisive factor.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Vetus Ordo on January 14, 2019, 02:20:47 AM
If you're interested in the subject, Michael, this might be useful.

In his book Islam: Its History, Teaching, and Practices, Prof. Solomon Alexander Nigosian, an Armenian Protestant born in Egypt, awarded with a doctorate degree in Ancient Near East History and Professor of Religion and Near Eastern Studies at McMaster University in Ontario (check his credentials here (http://library.vicu.utoronto.ca/collections/special_collections/f43_solomon_alexander_nigosian)), states the following:

Quote
"In Islam, the basic unit of society is the family. Hence, neither celibacy nor monasticism are encouraged in Islam as a way of life except under unusual or extenuating circumstances. Chastity outside marriage is regarded as a prime virtue, and the Quran recommends early marriage as a way to ensure abstinence from unlawful sexual activity. Those who reach marriageable age without finding a suitable mate are exhorted to observe complete abstinence from sexual activity until the right opportunity presents itself (Quran 24:34). Extramarital relations are altogether forbidden (Quran 17:33). It was not uncommon at one time for children to be married even before they reached puberty, though they were not permitted to cohabit until they were at least sexually mature."

The famous A Dictionary of Islam: Being a Cyclopaedia of the Doctrines, Rites, Ceremonies, and Customs, Together with the Technical and Theological Terms, of the Muhammadan Religion by Thomas Patrick Hughes, a British Anglican missionary who served under the auspices of the Church Mission Society in Peshawar, British India, states the following on the issue of marriage:

Quote
It is, therefore, important to consider what the requisite conditions are to vest in an individual the capacity to enter into a valid contract. As a general rule, it may be remarked, that under the Islamic law, the capacity to contract a valid marriage rests on the same basis as the capacity to enter into any other contract. ‘Among the conditions which are requisite for validity of a contract of marriage (says the fatawa-i-Alamgiri, p 377), are understanding, puberty, and freedom, in the contracting parties, with this difference, that whilst the first requisite is essential necessary for the validity of the marriage, as a marriage cannot be contracted by a majnun (non compos mentis), or a boy without understanding, the other two conditions are required only to give operation to the contract, as the marriage contracted by a (minor) boy (possessed) of understanding is dependent for its operation on the consent of his guardian.’ Puberty and discretion constitute, accordingly, the essential conditions of the capacity to enter into a valid contract of marriage. A person who is an infant in the eye of law is disqualified from entering into any legal transactions (tassaru fat-i-Shariyeh-tasarrufat-i-Shar’iah), and is consequently incompetent to contract a marriage. Like the English Common law, however, the Muhammdan law males distinction between a contract made by a minor possessed of discretion or understanding. A marriage contracted by a minor who has not arrived at the age of discretion, or who does not possesses understanding, or who cannot comprehend the consequences of the act, is a mere nullity.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: TheReturnofLive on January 14, 2019, 02:47:52 AM

Btw, Ecumenism is only supposed to be among baptized Christians who believe in (and have been baptized into) the Trinity according to Unitatis Redeintegratio. In pre Vatican II documents like a Holy Office directive under Pope Pius XII, it is said even of them, "It should be made clear to them that, in returning to the Church, they will lose nothing of that good which by the grace of God has hitherto been implanted in them, but that it will rather be supplemented and completed by their return. However, one should not speak of this in such a way that they will imagine that in returning to the Church they are bringing to it something substantial which it has hitherto lacked. It will be necessary to say these things clearly and openly, first because it is the truth that they themselves are seeking, and moreover because outside the truth no true union can ever be attained" which is clear and perfect.


What about Nostra Aetate?

"The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.
The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting."
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."


It's clear, especially in the actions of Pope Benedict and Pope Francis, that Ecumenical Dialogue with Muslims and a mutual respect for Muslims is something that's encouraged.

Pope Benedict XVI says that one cannot Proselytize Jews, that it's forbidden - only dialogue.

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2018/11/28/retired-pope-corrects-false-insinuation-by-german-theologian/

According to Vatican II and all the subsequent Popes, Islam worships the God of Abraham and is a part of the religious patrimony of the People of the Book! If we aren't allowed to convert Jews, why should we convert Muslims?

Just look at how the Popes have praised Islam! Including several Saints of the Church!

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm

May God forgive you one day for ridiculing what Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II have worked for!
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Davis Blank - EG on January 14, 2019, 07:35:37 AM
Your straw man ultra-ultra-ultramontanism is tiring.  But more importantly it is bad for you.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: TheReturnofLive on January 14, 2019, 12:50:56 PM
Your straw man ultra-ultra-ultramontanism is tiring.  But more importantly it is bad for you.

It's not bad for me, but I want to demonstrate that the Roman Catholic Church has - since Vatican II - lost it's sense of Catholicity, unless one is a Sedevacantist.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Gardener on January 14, 2019, 01:02:54 PM
Your straw man ultra-ultra-ultramontanism is tiring.  But more importantly it is bad for you.

It's not bad for me, but I want to demonstrate that the Roman Catholic Church has - since Vatican II - lost it's sense of Catholicity, unless one is a Sedevacantist.

It is bad for you if you think that it's the Catholic understanding of the Papacy, as that directly informs your perfectionism which has, indirectly, contributed to your schism.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: TheReturnofLive on January 14, 2019, 01:33:42 PM
Your straw man ultra-ultra-ultramontanism is tiring.  But more importantly it is bad for you.

It's not bad for me, but I want to demonstrate that the Roman Catholic Church has - since Vatican II - lost it's sense of Catholicity, unless one is a Sedevacantist.

It is bad for you if you think that it's the Catholic understanding of the Papacy, as that directly informs your perfectionism which has, indirectly, contributed to your schism.

As I've said, is the Church not perfect in terms of it's Canonizations, the Catechisms, and Ecumenical Councils? Is not the Church, as God says, "my dove, my spotless one," and does not Pope Hormasdias say the Church remains undefiled unto the end?

The Church has fully endorsed the life of Pope Paul VI as something admirable that can lead you to Heaven.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Vetus Ordo on January 14, 2019, 03:19:56 PM
Your straw man ultra-ultra-ultramontanism is tiring.  But more importantly it is bad for you.

It's not bad for me, but I want to demonstrate that the Roman Catholic Church has - since Vatican II - lost it's sense of Catholicity, unless one is a Sedevacantist.

It is bad for you if you think that it's the Catholic understanding of the Papacy, as that directly informs your perfectionism which has, indirectly, contributed to your schism.

As I've said, is the Church not perfect in terms of it's Canonizations, the Catechisms, and Ecumenical Councils? Is not the Church, as God says, "my dove, my spotless one," and does not Pope Hormasdias say the Church remains undefiled unto the end?

The Church has fully endorsed the life of Pope Paul VI as something admirable that can lead you to Heaven.

That's all fine but you're completely derailing the thread.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Kreuzritter on January 14, 2019, 04:02:38 PM
How about mentioning the fact that Mohamed married and consumated a marriage with a nine year old girl.

Old news. This was not unusual at the time.

Consummation, however, only occurred after puberty, as Islamic law teaches. The age where the girl reached puberty varies according to time and place. Aisha's puberty was exceptionally precocious.

According to apocryphal traditions that gained popularity throughout the ages, the Blessed Virgin is thought to have married St. Joseph when she was just between 12 or 14 years old while he was 90 years old (Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm)).

I never thought I'd get to hear that piece of moral relativism, and pedo-relativism no less, the by-rote response of every Muslim apologist, over here.

Consummation occured when she was nine, and in no ime or place in history has a nine-year-old girl been capable of understanding and consenting to marriage, ready for sexual intercourse with a grown man, or physically resembling anything but a child to whom only a paediophile would be sexually attracted, puberty or not. And defended by an apocryphal reference to the the Virgin Mary, no less! Talk abotu an offense to pious ears.

Quote
This sort of age discrepancy in marriage did not become taboo until much later on in the West.

Between a nine-year-old girl and an old man? You're smoking some mightily strong cow dung there.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Michael Wilson on January 14, 2019, 04:24:32 PM
V.O.
Thank you for the posted information; what you posted just confirms what the authors of the site I referenced stated: Mohamed was living with the girl when she was 9 years old and he then had sex with her; here is more evidence (which is pretty conclusive), that she had not yet reached puberty:
Quote
4) EVIDENCE THAT MUHAMMAD HAD SEX WITH AISHA PRIOR TO HER FIRST MENSES

We’ve seen that Islamic doctrine allows for prepubescent children to be engaged in intercourse, and that Aisha was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her for the first time. Now we’ll look at the evidence and see that Aisha was prepubescent when Muhammad had sex with her.

The hadith state that Aisha was taken to Muhammad’s house, as his bride, when she was 9 and she took her dolls with her as play toys. I’ll borrow some excerpts from Sam’s article here:

'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house AS A BRIDE WHEN SHE WAS NINE, AND HER DOLLS WERE WITH HER; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

'A'isha reported that she used to PLAY WITH DOLLS in the presence of Allah's Messenger and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger whereas Allah's Messenger sent them to her. (Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5981)

When the Apostle of Allah arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.

He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4914)


A Muslim scholar says that it is okay for Aisha (and other children) to play with dolls because they are not considered adults:

Al-Khattaabee said: From this Hadeeth it is understood that playing with dolls (al-banaat) is not like the amusement from other images (suwar) concerning which the threat (wa'eed) of punishment is mentioned. The only reason why permission in this was given to 'Aa'isha (may Allah be pleased with her) is because SHE HAD NOT, AT THAT TIME, REACHED THE AGE OF PUBERTY. (Source)

 

Examining the evidence from the previous sections we see

Islam allows sex with prepubescent children who are married
Aisha was playing with dolls after she consummated her marriage with Muhammad
Under Islam’s rules, female children were allowed to play with dolls because they had not yet entered puberty, i.e. had their first menses and became adults.
 

Therefore, the only conclusion that can be made is that Muhammad was having sex with a Aisha while still was a child! The Quran allows this, Muhammad did this, Aisha stated this, and the scholars affirm this. Now Islam’s children have to deal with this.

1. Aisha was playing with dolls after living together with Muhammad.
2. Aisha had already consummated the marriage.
3. She was only allowed to play with dolls according to Moslem law, because she had not reached puberty yet.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Vetus Ordo on January 14, 2019, 04:27:31 PM
Consummation occured when she was nine, and in no ime or place in history has a nine-year-old girl been capable of understanding and consenting to marriage, ready for sexual intercourse with a grown man, or physically resembling anything but a child to whom only a paediophile would be sexually attracted, puberty or not. And defended by an apocryphal reference to the the Virgin Mary, no less! Talk abotu an offense to pious ears.

The onset of puberty in girls usually occurs between 10 and 14 years of age.

However, cases of precocious puberty (and delayed puberty) do occur: https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/924002-overview (https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/924002-overview).

As for Aisha's case, we can only go as far as the sources go. Was she mature enough? Personally, I suspect not but the sources, and the Islamic legislation drafted therefrom, say otherwise. There is a possibility that her sexual maturity was really precocious. If we are to deal fairly with Muslims, and proper Evangelism depends on treating the opponent's beliefs fairly, that's as far as I'd go.

Quote
Between a nine-year-old girl and an old man? You're smoking some mightily strong cow dung there.

In the Encyclopedia of Children and Childhood in History and Society (http://www.faqs.org/childhood/A-Ar/Age-of-Consent.html) we read the following on the topic of "Age of Consent":

"The American colonies followed the English tradition but the law could at best be called a guide. For example in Virginia in 1689, Mary Hathaway was only nine when she was married to William Williams. We know of her case only because two years later she sued for divorce, and was released from the covenant she had made because the marriage had not been consummated. Interestingly, historian Holly Brewer, who discovered the case, speculated that if William had raped Mary, she probably would not have been given the divorce. The only reliable data on age at marriage in England in the early modern period comes from Inquisitions Post Mortem which involved only those who died and left property. It appears that the more complete the records, the more likely it is to discover young marriages. Judges honored marriages based on mutual consent at age younger than seven, in spite of what Gratian had said, and there are recorded marriages of two and three year olds. The seventeenth-century lawyer Henry Swinburne distinguished between the marriages of those under seven and those between seven and puberty. He wrote that those under seven who had said their vows had to ratify it afterwards by giving kisses and embraces, by lying together, by exchanging gifts or tokens, or by calling each other husband or wife. A contemporary, Philip Stubbes, wrote that in sixteenth-century East Anglia, infants still in swaddling clothes were married. The most influential legal text of the seventeenth century in England, that of Sir Edward Coke, made it clear that the marriage of girls under twelve was normal, and the age at which a girl who was a wife was eligible for a dower from her husband's estate was nine even though her husband be only four years old."

As far as Semitic societies, such as that of Muhammad's, marriages between old men and young girls were fairly common.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Josephine87 on January 14, 2019, 05:53:55 PM
It is interesting to see Protestant Christians engage in practices similar to Moslems. The late Zippy of Zippy Catholic blog frequently commented about how they both had a similar view of Scripture. Similar heresies appear to lead to similar sins (child rape).
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: TheReturnofLive on January 14, 2019, 06:49:58 PM
Your straw man ultra-ultra-ultramontanism is tiring.  But more importantly it is bad for you.

It's not bad for me, but I want to demonstrate that the Roman Catholic Church has - since Vatican II - lost it's sense of Catholicity, unless one is a Sedevacantist.

It is bad for you if you think that it's the Catholic understanding of the Papacy, as that directly informs your perfectionism which has, indirectly, contributed to your schism.

As I've said, is the Church not perfect in terms of it's Canonizations, the Catechisms, and Ecumenical Councils? Is not the Church, as God says, "my dove, my spotless one," and does not Pope Hormasdias say the Church remains undefiled unto the end?

The Church has fully endorsed the life of Pope Paul VI as something admirable that can lead you to Heaven.

That's all fine but you're completely derailing the thread.

Mea Culpa, Kyrie Eleison.

I'm sorry for doing so.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Vetus Ordo on January 14, 2019, 11:32:15 PM
1. Aisha was playing with dolls after living together with Muhammad.
2. Aisha had already consummated the marriage.
3. She was only allowed to play with dolls according to Moslem law, because she had not reached puberty yet.

Not all dolls are forbidden in Islam.

Here is the direct rebuttal to the article you posted, if you're interested in having a broader view of the subject:

https://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_sam_shamoun_s_arguments_regarding_the_prophet_s_marriage_to_aisha (https://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_sam_shamoun_s_arguments_regarding_the_prophet_s_marriage_to_aisha)
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Kreuzritter on January 15, 2019, 05:27:18 AM
Consummation occured when she was nine, and in no ime or place in history has a nine-year-old girl been capable of understanding and consenting to marriage, ready for sexual intercourse with a grown man, or physically resembling anything but a child to whom only a paediophile would be sexually attracted, puberty or not. And defended by an apocryphal reference to the the Virgin Mary, no less! Talk abotu an offense to pious ears.

The onset of puberty in girls usually occurs between 10 and 14 years of age.

However, cases of precocious puberty (and delayed puberty) do occur: https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/924002-overview (https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/924002-overview).

As for Aisha's case, we can only go as far as the sources go. Was she mature enough? Personally, I suspect not but the sources, and the Islamic legislation drafted therefrom, say otherwise. There is a possibility that her sexual maturity was really precocious. If we are to deal fairly with Muslims, and proper Evangelism depends on treating the opponent's beliefs fairly, that's as far as I'd go.

More of the same from you. All irrelevant. Having sex with a nine-year-old girl, who is absolutely incapable of understanding and consenting to marriage, is evil and makes you a paedophile, regardless of a "precocious" puberty.

Quote
Quote
Between a nine-year-old girl and an old man? You're smoking some mightily strong cow dung there.

In the Encyclopedia of Children and Childhood in History and Society (http://www.faqs.org/childhood/A-Ar/Age-of-Consent.html) we read the following on the topic of "Age of Consent":

"The American colonies followed the English tradition but the law could at best be called a guide. For example in Virginia in 1689, Mary Hathaway was only nine when she was married to William Williams. We know of her case only because two years later she sued for divorce, and was released from the covenant she had made because the marriage had not been consummated. Interestingly, historian Holly Brewer, who discovered the case, speculated that if William had raped Mary, she probably would not have been given the divorce. The only reliable data on age at marriage in England in the early modern period comes from Inquisitions Post Mortem which involved only those who died and left property. It appears that the more complete the records, the more likely it is to discover young marriages. Judges honored marriages based on mutual consent at age younger than seven, in spite of what Gratian had said, and there are recorded marriages of two and three year olds. The seventeenth-century lawyer Henry Swinburne distinguished between the marriages of those under seven and those between seven and puberty. He wrote that those under seven who had said their vows had to ratify it afterwards by giving kisses and embraces, by lying together, by exchanging gifts or tokens, or by calling each other husband or wife. A contemporary, Philip Stubbes, wrote that in sixteenth-century East Anglia, infants still in swaddling clothes were married. The most influential legal text of the seventeenth century in England, that of Sir Edward Coke, made it clear that the marriage of girls under twelve was normal, and the age at which a girl who was a wife was eligible for a dower from her husband's estate was nine even though her husband be only four years old."
[/quote]

Nice straw man. I'm not interested in the doings of an extremist Protestant cult. You claimed that

Quote
This sort of age discrepancy in marriage did not become taboo until much later on in the West.

and that's demonstrably false. Ancient Roman law set the age of consent at 12, with parental permission, and Canon law followed Roman law. That is why English law set the age of consent at 12 in the 12th century. You're spinning a false narrative of history that is incidentally the same one used by paedo-apologists to "justify" their behaviour, namely that the prohibition upon it is merely a modern Western social convention.

And if you think the Catholic Church acknowledged as valid marriages between little children and adults, you're smoking something.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Xavier on January 15, 2019, 10:00:21 AM
So, (1) Mohammed's actions (being 50+ while seducing a poor girl of 9) disqualify him from being a Prophet, even apart from that (2) Mohammed's behavior (polygamy, sex slavery, concubinage etc) especially after Christ by His Church had so highly elevated matrimony back to its original dignity, by teaching us the necessity of fidelity and exclusive love in marriage, disqualifies Mohammed from being a Prophet (3) His evil teachings justifying this and promising a false carnal paradise further disqualify him, and a thousand such reasons could be cited from his life. Then, (4) the historical fact of the crucifixion, almost universally admitted and witnessed by Mary and St. John, disqualifies him. (5) The fact that Christ completed revelation and established the new and eternal covenant disqualifies Mohammed or any such further prophet with new public revelation (6) the promise of Christ to His Church, as well as the promise of the Spirit, further proves there is no new revelation after Christ until the second coming. And numerous such reasons can be urged.

The challenge is to present this to our Muslim friends in such a way as will make them open to hearing the eternal Truth of the Gospel.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Gardener on January 15, 2019, 03:40:06 PM
KR, I suspect Vetus is merely laying out the case from the Islamic perspective, not defending it.

He can confirm or deny.
Title: Re: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.
Post by: Xavier on January 16, 2019, 11:39:36 AM
St. John Bosco interview on Islamism, this is how Catholic Bishops and Priests should teach their flock and safeguard them from errors. http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/bosco.htm

In other interesting news in this connection, we see more and more conservatives realize some of the quaint and rather naive statements in Nostra Aetate are only random rapid reflections and not by any means dogma or doctrine, "Which raises an oft-asked question (though, apparently, not oft-asked in Orlando): was Nostra Aetate meant to be a teaching document or a pastoral document? Was it meant to deal with matters of faith and morals in a definitive way? Or was it mainly pastoral in intent? Were the Council fathers intending to teach Catholics about the nature of Islam? Or was Nostra Aetate primarily meant as a gesture of outreach to non-Christians?

Several prominent bishops have suggested the latter. Vatican Cardinal Walter Brandmüller has stated that Nostra Aetate does “not have a binding doctrinal content.” And Archbishop Guido Pozzo, the Secretary of the Pontifical Council Ecclesia Dei, told a German newspaper “Nostra Aetate does not have any dogmatic authority, and thus one cannot demand from anyone to recognize this declaration as being dogmatic.” The Catholic educators in Orlando and elsewhere should take notice." https://www.crisismagazine.com/2017/islam-view-disney-country

Finally, St. John Bosco notes, in his time, Mohammedanism was prevalent in Asia and much of Africa, as was the case then. The religious demographics of Africa, as many observers of global Christianity have noted (most recently a Gordon Theological seminary study), are rapidly changing. And it is not impossible that Islam will largely disappear from Africa in another 15 to 30 years at current rates. May God grant it! Some Islamist sites mention and bemoan this. https://www.virtueonline.org/6-million-muslims-leave-islam-every-year

As Acolyte said, among other things, the internet changes matters somewhat, with Islamism and its errors and absurdities openly exposed for all to see. Thus, happily, very many Muslims, seeing the clear contrast between Jesus Christ and Mr. Mohammed, are leaving Islam behind and becoming Christians, even Catholic Christians.

Catholic prophesies suggest Islamism will have a prominent role to play in WW3. More urgent than ever is the necessity to evangelize and baptize, and carry out and quickly complete the Great Commission given by Jesus Christ Our Lord in the New Testament. "And this Gospel of the Kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come." (Mat 24:14)

Quote
St. John Bosco on Mohammedanism
 
Father: Before talking to you about the religions separated at a certain point from the Roman Catholic Church, I want to draw your attention to the religions that do not have the characteristics of the divinity in them and which we call false religions. They range from Judaism to Idolatry, to Mohammedanism to the Christian sects professed by the Schismatic Greeks, Valdese, Anglicans and Protestants.

Regarding  Idolatry, I think there is no need to discuss this with you, since nowadays it does not exist, with the exception of  very few countries where the light of the Gospel has  still not penetrated.

Regarding Judaism, I think I have already spoken sufficiently in the first part of these conversations.
 
If you like, I’ll now tell you about the others, starting with Mohammedanism.
 
Son: Yes, yes, first of all, tell us what Mohammedanism means?

F. Mohammedanism is a collection of maxims extracted from various religions, which, if practiced, bring about the destruction of every moral principle.
 
S. In which countries is this Mohammedanism professed?
 

F. It is professed in a large part of Asia as well as part of  Africa.

S. Who started Mohammedanism?
 

F. Mohammedanism was started by Mohamed.
 
S. Oh! We’d really like to hear about this Mohamed. Tell us everything you know about him.

F. It would take too long to tell you all the stories about this famous impostor. But I’ll tell you who he was and how he came to establish his Religion.

In the year 570, Mohamed was born into a poor family, of a Jewish mother and gentile father, in Mecca an Arabian city not far from the Red Sea. In search of glory and desirous of bettering his conditions, he wandered around several countries and managed in Damascus to become the agent of a merchant’s widow who afterwards married him. He was cunning enough to take advantage of his infirmities as well as her ignorance, to establish a religion.  Suffering from epilepsy, male caduco, he claimed his frequent falls were ecstasies wherein he had conversations with the Angel Gabriel.

S. What an imposter to deceive people like that! Did he also try to work miracles to support his predication?

F. Mohamed couldn’t work any miracles to support his religion, as he was not sent by God.  God is the sole author of miracles.  However, as he claimed himself  greater than Jesus Christ, he was asked to work miracles in the same way [as Jesus]. He arrogantly replied that the miracles had [already] been worked by Jesus Christ and that he [himself] had been called by God to reestablish the religion by force.

With all of this he claimed to have worked one miracle. He said he had been able to restore a piece of the moon after it had fallen onto his sleeve; to commemorate this ridiculous miracle, the Muslims made the half-moon their emblem.

You laugh, beloved sons, and you are right to do so, since a man of that sort [simply] had to be deemed a charlatan, not the predicator of a new religion.  For this reason, his fellow-citizens wanted to imprison him and put him to death since his reputation as an imposter and disturber of the peace was widely  known.  But he managed to escape and retreated to the city of Medina along with some libertines who helped him and made him the ruler of that city. [1]   

S. What exactly does the Mohammedan  religion consist of?

F. Mohamed’s religion consists of a monstrous mixture of Judaism, Paganism and Christianity. The book of Mohamed’s laws is called the Qur’an i.e. the book par excellence. This religion is also called Turkish (Ottoman) since it is widely diffused in Turkey;  Muslim [Musulmana] derives from Mosul, the name that the Mohammedans give to their prayer director; Islamism, from the name of some of its reformers; at any rate, it is still the same religion Mohamed established.
 
S. Why did Mohamed put together this mixture of  various religions?

F. Since the peoples of Arabia were in part Jews, Christians and Pagans, he consequently selected a part of the religion they professed in order to induce them to follow him, choosing in particular, those points that would favor sensual pleasures the most.

S. Mohamed must have been an erudite man?

F. Absolutely not, he couldn’t even write; and in composing his Qur’an he was assisted by a Jew and an apostate monk. When discussing things contained in Holy Scripture he confused the facts; for example, he attributes to Mary, Moses’ sister, many facts that regard Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, in addition to many, many other frightful errors.

S. This seems hard to believe: if Mohamed was ignorant and he didn’t work any miracles how could he have propagated his religion?

F. Mohamed propagated his religion, not through miracles or persuasive words, but by military  force.  In a short time, this  religion which favoured every sort of licentiousness, allowed Mohamed to become the leader of a troop of brigands. Along with them he raided the countries of the East and conquered the people, not by indicating the Truth, not by miracles or prophecy but with one aim only: to raise his sword over the heads of the conquered shouting: believe or die!

S.  What a villain! This cannot be the way to convert people! Without doubt, Mohamed being such an ignoramus must have planted many seeds of error in the Qur’an?

F. We could say the Koran is a series of errors, the most enormous ones being against morality and the worship of the true God.  For example, it excuses from sin those who deny God out of fear of death;  it permits revenge; it guarantees its followers a Paradise filled only of earthly pleasures.  In short, this false prophet’s doctrine permits things so obscene, that the Christian soul is horrified just naming them.
 
S. What is the difference between the Catholic Church and the Mohammedan one?

F. The difference is very great. Mohamed established his religion with violence and arms; Jesus Christ established His Church with words of peace using His poor disciples. Mohamed incited the passions; Jesus Christ commanded the denial of self.  Mohamed worked no miracles; Jesus Christ worked uncountable miracles in broad daylight and in the presence of countless  multitudes.  Mohamed’s doctrines are ridiculous, immoral and corrupting; Jesus Christ’s are august, sublime and pure. In Mohamed not even one prophecy was fulfilled; in Jesus Christ all were.
 
To sum up, the Christian Religion, in a certain way, renders man happy in this world so as to raise him up to the enjoyment of heaven; Mohamed degrades and dishonours human nature and by placing all happiness in sensual pleasures, reduces man to the level of filthy animals.
 
[1] Mohamed’s escape  was called Egira, which means “escape” from which the Muslim era begins precisely and corresponds to the year of Christ, 622.
Taken from: On Islam  from “IL CATTOLICO, ISTRUITO NELLA SUA RELIGIONE, TRATTENIMENTI ( Torino 1853). [The Catholic educated in his religion. Conversations  with the Father of a Family and  his beloved sons, in relation to the needs of the present day.  Summarized by Giovanni Bosco, priest. (Turin, 1853)].