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The Church Courtyard => Catholic Liturgical Life => Topic started by: jhfromsf68 on January 09, 2018, 12:07:20 AM

Title: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: jhfromsf68 on January 09, 2018, 12:07:20 AM
Hi forum

I recently attended an Diocesan Latin mass. During the sermon the priest mentioned Our Lady of Guadalupe since her feast day was close. He talked a little bit about the history of the apparition and the indigenous people in Mexico at the time. He then starting talking about the image itself and mentioned that Our Lady's knee is bent in the image which represents liturgical dancing. He went on to say the indigenous people danced as part of their religious rituals and our lady was showing them something that they could relate to. He also mentioned the liturgical dancing of the old testament to justify this practice.

This all sounds a little iffy to me. But I could be wrong. Has anyone here heard about liturgical dancing in connection to Our lady of Guadalupe?   Thanks!
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Livenotonevil on January 09, 2018, 09:28:05 AM
1. The idea that an 16th century painting of the Virgin Mary encourages liturgical dancing, because her knee is bent, is absolutely ridiculous.

2. The Church Fathers commenting on dance in the Old Testament - Saint Cyprian comes to mind - make it clear the dance that people like the Prophet David performed were not at all energetic or licentious, nor were they used liturgically.

Even then, looking to the Old Testament disciplines of the law, in order to justify specific deeds, especially outside the context of Tradition is fatalistic. By that logic, we are all going to be damned to hell because we don't circumcise and we eat pork. It also means we are allowed to stone adulterers and we should prophesize naked.

In the Old Testament, instruments were used; but the Church Fathers clearly make the point that the New Testament Church using instruments is absolutely forbidden, because the disciplines of the Old Law are obsolete, and the singing voice to God is more pure and beautiful than any artificial instrument could produce; the inferior music was preparation for the purer music by the Body of Christ.

The same is true for even "dancing", even though contemporary dancing was not at all like Judaic dancing, and even though such dancing was explicitly forbidden in Judaic worship. Such energetic movements in liturgical prayer ought to be forbidden. Such dancing does not produce an authentic relationship with God, but is an act for the purpose of creating physical and emotional sensations artificially.
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Carleendiane on January 09, 2018, 01:32:57 PM
Hi forum

I recently attended an Diocesan Latin mass. During the sermon the priest mentioned Our Lady of Guadalupe since her feast day was close. He talked a little bit about the history of the apparition and the indigenous people in Mexico at the time. He then starting talking about the image itself and mentioned that Our Lady's knee is bent in the image which represents liturgical dancing. He went on to say the indigenous people danced as part of their religious rituals and our lady was showing them something that they could relate to. He also mentioned the liturgical dancing of the old testament to justify this practice.

This all sounds a little iffy to me. But I could be wrong. Has anyone here heard about liturgical dancing in connection to Our lady of Guadalupe?   Thanks!

 :rofl:
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Lynne on January 09, 2018, 02:50:06 PM
By the way, it's not a painting but a supernatural image imposed on an article of clothing.  :)
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: red solo cup on January 09, 2018, 03:27:56 PM
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: jhfromsf68 on January 09, 2018, 03:34:37 PM
Thanks for your responses.

I thought maybe Our Lady's bent knee in the Our Lady of Guadalupe image representing religious dancing was common knowledge among Catholics. I can see by the responses so far that's not true.
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Kaesekopf on January 09, 2018, 04:15:51 PM
Hi forum

I recently attended an Diocesan Latin mass. During the sermon the priest mentioned Our Lady of Guadalupe since her feast day was close. He talked a little bit about the history of the apparition and the indigenous people in Mexico at the time. He then starting talking about the image itself and mentioned that Our Lady's knee is bent in the image which represents liturgical dancing. He went on to say the indigenous people danced as part of their religious rituals and our lady was showing them something that they could relate to. He also mentioned the liturgical dancing of the old testament to justify this practice.

This all sounds a little iffy to me. But I could be wrong. Has anyone here heard about liturgical dancing in connection to Our lady of Guadalupe?   Thanks!

This is a very stupid rationale.
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Gardener on January 09, 2018, 09:38:23 PM
A lot of images of Our Lady have her knee out like that.

Could be a lot of reasons. One reason that could be of significance is in reference to her bruised heel from crushing the head of the serpent -- that has more theological significance, and is seen in other, non-Mexican images. I fail to believe that she is communicating an Aztec dance to French children, or Portuguese peasant children, or Carmelite saints... etc.

Examples:

(https://udayton.edu/imri/mary/_resources/img/o/our_lady_of_light_01.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IuYhjSUkwCA/UQ_95wS_MDI/AAAAAAAAAYg/76oIklqU-Ow/s400/Our-Lady-Of-Mount-Carmel-novena.jpg)
(http://villanovadiocese.aihmfriars.net/images/our-lady-of-grace-01.jpg)
(http://www.olovnz.com/uploads/5/9/4/5/59451593/7133360.jpg?300)
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Livenotonevil on January 09, 2018, 09:44:47 PM
Or Greeks

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/e0/6b/0a/e06b0a523ac1981a832b8a3ea4232178--orthodox-icons-madonna.jpg)

Or Russians

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/97/8a/08/978a08c2c35d0fc5dac2c77eb2596412--blessed-virgin-mary-holy-mary.jpg)
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: drummerboy on January 09, 2018, 10:03:06 PM
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: drummerboy on January 09, 2018, 10:08:18 PM

From 10:00 minutes on.  Enjoy...or not :o
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Gardener on January 09, 2018, 10:20:02 PM
Or Greeks

Or Russians

Snipped pics for quoting purposes.

Since icons typically have very purposeful symbolism, do you happen to know or can you find out why her knee is out like that in the icons?
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Kaesekopf on January 10, 2018, 01:17:40 AM

From 10:00 minutes on.  Enjoy...or not :o

delet dis
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Obrien on January 10, 2018, 02:30:16 AM
Something stands out in my mind regarding the bend in Our Lady's knee. It shows her complete humility to God and sets an example to us that "every knee shall bend".

Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: dymphna17 on January 10, 2018, 05:54:27 AM
Dear Lord, it's no wonder non-Catholics think we are a bunch of weirdos.  Uggghhhh!  Liturgical dance.  There's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.   :rolleyes:

I agree with Obrien on this one.
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: abc123 on January 10, 2018, 06:24:17 AM
Dear Lord, it's no wonder non-Catholics think we are a bunch of weirdos.  Uggghhhh!  Liturgical dance.  There's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.   :rolleyes:

I agree with Obrien on this one.

Certain rites, such as the Coptic and Ethiopian, use liturgical dance as part of their organic patrimony. It certainly isn't my preference nor is it organic to the Roman Rite, however.

Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Daniel on January 10, 2018, 08:25:03 AM
.
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: martin88nyc on January 10, 2018, 11:24:33 AM

From 10:00 minutes on.  Enjoy...or not :o
Ewwwwww!!!
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Clare on January 13, 2018, 05:03:59 AM
In the Old Testament, instruments were used; but the Church Fathers clearly make the point that the New Testament Church using instruments is absolutely forbidden, because the disciplines of the Old Law are obsolete, and the singing voice to God is more pure and beautiful than any artificial instrument could produce; the inferior music was preparation for the purer music by the Body of Christ.
But what about church organs, which are not forbidden, surely?
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Gardener on January 13, 2018, 09:00:47 AM
Counterpoint: http://www.stgregoryoc.org/article/article-archive/the-use-of-the-organ-in-the-orthodox-church/

subtitle: When hard lines go soft. Conveniently, it would seem the writer also works for an organ company. There's nothing more authentically Eastern (socio-geographically speaking), than grift. Greased palms play the Psalms. Lol.
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Livenotonevil on January 15, 2018, 07:15:49 PM
Counterpoint: http://www.stgregoryoc.org/article/article-archive/the-use-of-the-organ-in-the-orthodox-church/

subtitle: When hard lines go soft. Conveniently, it would seem the writer also works for an organ company. There's nothing more authentically Eastern (socio-geographically speaking), than grift. Greased palms play the Psalms. Lol.

Okay, two things:
1. I'll quote the Church Fathers in question.

Saint Clement of Alexandria:
"Leave the pipe to the shepherd, the flute to the men who are in fear of gods and are intent on their idol-worshipping. Such musical instruments must be excluded from our wineless feasts, for they are more suited for beasts and for the class of men that is least capable of reason than for men… In general, we must completely eliminate every such base sight or sound – in a word, everything immodest that strikes the senses (for this is an abuse of the senses) – if we would avoid pleasures that merely fascinate the eye or ear, and emasculate."

Eusebius:
"Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days… We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms."

Saint John Chrysostom:
"David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody."

Saint Basil the Great:
"So the psalm was not written for the Jews of that time, but for us who are to be transformed, who exchange polytheism for piety and the error of idolatry for the recognition of him who made us, who choose moderation under the law in place of illegitimate pleasure, and who substitute psalms, fasting and prayer, for instruments, dancing and drunkenness."

Theodoret:
"It is not singing as such which befits the childish, but singing with lifeless instruments, and with dancing and finger clappers; wherefore the use of such instruments and other such things appropriate to those who are childish is dispensed with in the churches and singing alone has been left over."

Canons of Saint Basil:
"When a reader learns to play the cithara, he shall be taught to confess it. If he does not return to it, he will endure his punishment for seven weeks. If he persists in it, he must be discharged and excluded from the church."

2. Both the Antiochian Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America have, in a growing number of parishes, introduced the Pipe Organ into their liturgical services - from the 20th century onward - (they are still a minority however) and the article you quote is from a Western Rite (i.e., they use the Liturgy of Saint Gregory) Antiochian Orthodox Church. This introduction has led to a lot of conflict and debate among the Orthodox Faithful, even among the Greeks; the Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Columbus, Ohio, has a pipe organ - me and some friends attended there for Liturgy.

They were clearly an irregularity and not the norm, or what should be the norm, basing my opinion on the Church Fathers.

The Pipe Organs flourished in the West post-schism.

"By 900 A.D., advocates of organ music began to overcome reactionary attitudes, and a bank of pipes had become a well- recognized ecclesiastical fixture by 1400."
http://ethw.org/Pipe_Organs

However, this is only my opinion - the Orthodox Churches which use pipe organs are their own Churches. As long as the music doesn't become hedonistic and emotionalistic, and doesn't subdue the pipe organ for the voices - we are good to go.
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Livenotonevil on January 15, 2018, 07:17:29 PM
Dear Lord, it's no wonder non-Catholics think we are a bunch of weirdos.  Uggghhhh!  Liturgical dance.  There's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.   :rolleyes:

I agree with Obrien on this one.

Certain rites, such as the Coptic and Ethiopian, use liturgical dance as part of their organic patrimony. It certainly isn't my preference nor is it organic to the Roman Rite, however.

I knew the Ethiopians used a minimized liturgical dance, but I didn't know about the Copts - nor have I seen a Coptic liturgy with dance, unless it is modernism.
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Gardener on January 16, 2018, 08:07:40 AM
Or Greeks

Or Russians

Snipped pics for quoting purposes.

Since icons typically have very purposeful symbolism, do you happen to know or can you find out why her knee is out like that in the icons?

LNOE -- did you ever find out an answer to this question?

Thanks
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Livenotonevil on January 16, 2018, 12:00:06 PM
Or Greeks

Or Russians

Snipped pics for quoting purposes.

Since icons typically have very purposeful symbolism, do you happen to know or can you find out why her knee is out like that in the icons?

LNOE -- did you ever find out an answer to this question?

Thanks

There's nothing exact or precise that I could find; I did find something of significance, however.

The origins of this exact pose seem to come from the iconography of our icon "The Protection of the Theotokos." It is a popular icon that is used throughout the Orthodox Churches.

From the 10th century in Constantinople, one of the Saints of the Church - Saint Andrew, the Fool for Christ - received a vision of the Theotokos on her knees praying for all Christians, and then she took her veil and spread it on all the Christians in the Church in which she appeared - signifying her protection.

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1136/4188/products/HOLY_PROTECTION_2__10385.1376699311.1000.1200_1024x1024.jpeg?v=1455409280)

The bent knee might signify her intercessions before Christ.

It seems that this particular "pose" of Our Lady became a theme for Orthodox iconography in other icons of her full person -

(https://iconreader.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/pskovpecheryascensionicon.jpg)

And considering that Roman artwork was heavily influenced by Byzantine artwork during the Middle Ages all the way to the 13th century, it is possible that the bent knee was kept in Roman iconography.



However, I find the more likely explanation is the fact that due to the robes, the bent knees were added to elaborate on the body and give more detail about the person in question in terms of the human form.

Saint Peter and Saint Paul

(https://www.orthodoxartsjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/paul-and-peter-icon.jpg)
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Elizabeth on January 18, 2018, 11:01:09 AM
A lot of images of Our Lady have her knee out like that.


:

My Art History is a shambles, but that's the good old Quatrocetro style.  If I've spelled it correctly.  Almost all beautiful statues utilize this lovely manner of setting apart a figure worthy of admiration.
Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Greg on January 22, 2018, 02:30:41 AM
New mass.  Crap liturgy, crap dancing, crap architecture, crap vestments, crap sermons.

If you are going to dance then at least do it with some energy and talent.


Title: Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
Post by: Kaesekopf on February 01, 2018, 10:44:45 PM
As a note, I've seen this one knee bent pose present and featured in many images and many statues of various saints.

Making the priest's rationale in the OP bunk.