Suscipe Domine Traditional Catholic Forum

The Church Courtyard => General Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: Xavier on December 21, 2017, 11:20:35 AM

Title: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Xavier on December 21, 2017, 11:20:35 AM
Let's not be deceived, communion for adulterers is only the beginning. Just as they planned a horrible document even before that synod on divorce/remarriage, which later was rejected, but still put out in the end, they've already planned what discipline and dogma they want to change next. The Modernists in Rome have more evil synods planned and it seems we are powerless to stop them. Our Lady told St. Bridget "Know this too: that if some pope concedes to priests a license to contract carnal marriage, God will condemn him to a sentence as great, in a spiritual way, as that which the law justly inflicts in a corporeal way on a man who has transgressed so gravely that he must have his eyes gouged out, his tongue and lips, nose and ears cut off, his hands and feet amputated, all his body’s blood spilled out to grow completely cold, and finally, his whole bloodless corpse cast out to be devoured by dogs and other wild beasts ... For that same pope would be totally deprived by God of his spiritual sight and hearing, and of his spiritual words and deeds. All his spiritual wisdom would grow completely cold; and finally, after his death, his soul would be cast out to be tortured eternally in hell so that there it might become the food of demons everlastingly and without end.” https://gloria.tv/article/PRV2YJx1AKsU1dKu88KDWnLmf continuing to tell the Saint that even if it had been so magnificent a Pope as St. Gregory the Great who had conceded such an evil and lax permission, he would never have received mercy from God, unless before death he had retracted. Will anyone say St. Bridget or the private revelations made to her by the Mother of God contradict what the Catholic Faith teaches us about the Papacy? If they do not, then maybe it's our understanding of disciplinary infallibility that's not correct.

A careful consideration of what infallibility does and does not entail seems to suggest that extreme laxity in failing to impose a universal discipline demanded by divine law (e.g. failing to universally demand adulterers are not admitted to communion, but allowing lax priests in liberal local churches to make that decision themselves etc) is not incompatible with it; rather, this is a personal sin of extreme laxity and liberalism on the part of the negligent Pontiff, a failure precisely to make an ex cathedra judgment or impose that universal discipline which dogma demands. Thoughts? http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2017/10/25/analysis-will-the-2019-synod-discuss-married-priests/

Quote
Last year, the National Catholic Register reported that Pope Francis wanted a synod on married priests – only for the proposal to be voted out by the synod council.

But it appears that a different meeting of bishops may now focus on the proposal: October 2019’s synod for the Pan-Amazon region, which Pope Francis announced earlier this month.

One influential bishop from the Pan-Amazon region, Bishop Erwin Kräutler, has told Kathpress that he thinks the synod might consider the ordination of married men, as well as women deacons.

Bishop Kräutler, who led the Diocese of Xingu, in Brazil, from 1981-2015, is more likely than most to understand Pope Francis’s intentions for the synod. In 2014, the bishop spoke to Francis about ordaining married men. In 2015, they revisited the subject, and the Pope said he wanted to hear “bold, daring proposals”.

In his latest interview, Bishop Kräutler says he thinks the synod might look at “the proposal of the emeritus bishop Fritz Lobinger”. Bishop Lobinger has suggested that local “elders”, or “viri probati”, might be ordained to celebrate Mass and the sacraments. In this vision, there would be “two different forms of priesthood”: the viri probati would not receive seminary education, could marry, and would be “as distinct as possible” from priests. The Pope made reference to the notion of viri probati earlier this year, inviting the Church to “reflect” on the matter.

Bishop Lobinger does not stop there: he has also written that “Because the majority of proven local leaders are women, it is unavoidable that the question of their inclusion among ordained elders will arise, though present church law does not permit it.”

Bishop Kräutler is himself a supporter of women priests. He told Die Presse in 2014 that while Pope Francis said the door to women’s ordination is closed, that means the door could be opened – and that he, Bishop Kräutler, believes it ought to be.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Gardener on December 21, 2017, 11:51:08 AM
ordination of a married man != marriage of an ordained man. Your title is incorrect.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Lynne on December 21, 2017, 12:31:20 PM
ordination of a married man != marriage of an ordained man. Your title is incorrect.

Still a bad idea though.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Habitual_Ritual on December 21, 2017, 03:49:53 PM
Is this coming out of Rome?

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k-6uS6zJeDU/UOgMPpDCbtI/AAAAAAAAEtA/KJ9HINw_jJY/s1600/dont-even-care.gif)
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Gardener on December 23, 2017, 08:45:45 AM
ordination of a married man != marriage of an ordained man. Your title is incorrect.

Still a bad idea though.

Yes. My concern is that we watch our P's and Q's, such that we do not unnecessarily provide a rhetorical trap into which we must walk. If we are sloppy with phrasing, we risk not properly conveying the problem and cutting the truth's argument at the knees.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: rosenley on December 23, 2017, 04:59:47 PM
A friend of mine told me about a story, where an Eastern "Orthodox" Priest needed to work two other jobs in order to provide for his family since it wasn't a requirement to remain celibate. Not only that, but you're likely to end up tithing for his kids' college tuitions instead of for his well-being.

I sincerely hope this isn't the road Rome takes.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Graham on December 23, 2017, 09:51:09 PM
ordination of a married man != marriage of an ordained man. Your title is incorrect.

Still a bad idea though.

Yes. My concern is that we watch our P's and Q's, such that we do not unnecessarily provide a rhetorical trap into which we must walk. If we are sloppy with phrasing, we risk not properly conveying the problem and cutting the truth's argument at the knees.

Quote
the viri probati ... could marry...

We are talking about people that are in favour of, or are sympathetic to, the ordination of women. Let's not kid ourselves, they don't see any problem with priests marrying (and then divorcing and remarrying). 

Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: lauermar on April 21, 2018, 08:10:04 AM
Michael Matt at The Remnant thinks the 2018 synod with youth will take on gay unions in their dialogue about vocations:

At a press conference at the Vatican which I covered in person during the last Synod, Cardinal Peter Turkson promised that the question of "gay unions" would be taken up at the next Synod. They're playing it down at the moment, but I stick to my prediction that "gay unions" will be the bombshell of the 2018 Synod.  https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/3636-a-new-year-preditction-vatican-will-greenlight-gay-unions-in-2018

Louie Verrecchio thinks the synod will be about women's ordination:

https://akacatholic.com/youth-female-ordination/
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Innocent Smith on April 21, 2018, 04:04:15 PM
Michael Matt at The Remnant thinks the 2018 synod with youth will take on gay unions in their dialogue about vocations:

At a press conference at the Vatican which I covered in person during the last Synod, Cardinal Peter Turkson promised that the question of "gay unions" would be taken up at the next Synod. They're playing it down at the moment, but I stick to my prediction that "gay unions" will be the bombshell of the 2018 Synod.  https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/3636-a-new-year-preditction-vatican-will-greenlight-gay-unions-in-2018

Louie Verrecchio thinks the synod will be about women's ordination:

https://akacatholic.com/youth-female-ordination/

Let them discuss it all they want. There is no way either could ever happen.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Greg on April 21, 2018, 04:18:04 PM
People said that about the Canonisation of JP2
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Larry on April 21, 2018, 05:03:09 PM
Married Priests have been approved in  the Eastern Catholic Churches by the Holy See since the Apostolic era. So it's hard for me to see that quote from St. Bridget as authentic. Saying that, I don't think the discipline of the Latin Church should change.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: aquinas138 on April 21, 2018, 06:40:33 PM
A friend of mine told me about a story, where an Eastern "Orthodox" Priest needed to work two other jobs in order to provide for his family since it wasn't a requirement to remain celibate. Not only that, but you're likely to end up tithing for his kids' college tuitions instead of for his well-being.

I sincerely hope this isn't the road Rome takes.

The laborer is worth his wage. I don't mind paying for a priest's kid's education any more than paying for the opulent lifestyles of some priests or for the diocese to settle sex abuse claims. A priest answers for how he spends his money, like the rest of us.

Orthodox priests in the West are generally paid by the parish; the diocese does not pay them. If it's a small parish or one that otherwise struggles financially, the priest will often not take a salary from the parish to avoid that expense.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Geremia on April 21, 2018, 07:24:42 PM
To be more nitpicky:
ordination of a married man ≠ ordained man "marrying" (really committing adultery with) [a human woman]
The celibate marry the Church / Divine Spouse.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Prayerful on April 23, 2018, 06:03:46 PM
I still think there will be more of usual gradual, incremental efforts to harm the Faith, enrich Vatican City fruits ($25 million demanded by Francis from the US Papal Foundation, though only half was paid, or Cardinal Maradiaga's peculations) by continued blocking of financial reforms, efforts redoubled to ensure Conciliar paedophile priests can avail of 'Mercy' (likely a major concern for Cardinal Danneels), selective attacks on small traditional monks, priests and bishops, just the usual. This synod will be a little piece of all that.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Gardener on April 24, 2018, 12:39:35 AM
To be more nitpicky:
ordination of a married man ≠ ordained man "marrying" (really committing adultery with) [a human woman]
The celibate marry the Church / Divine Spouse.

Good clarifying catch, sir.  :toth:
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Miriam_M on April 24, 2018, 03:01:14 AM
Of all hair-brained ideas.  What the Church needs least of all at the moment is to have any priests, trad or N.O., be even less available to their flocks because they're busy with their wives & children. 

Anyone who knows priests well knows that the good ones are well acquainted with the realities of marriage. 

(The argument has been twofold:   
1. "that only married people understand other married people."  Hmmm.  What happened to the rest of the human race that grew up with married parents and thus can mostly see what marriage is all about?  Most priests are very knowledgeable and realistic about marriage.  Part of that is because they hear the confessions of married individuals. Sins against one's spouse are one of the most commonly confessed category of sins.

2.  "Bringing married men into the priesthood will increase the number of priests."  Seriously?  Not by any appreciable amount, it won't.  It's lots of extra work with less pay than he can earn on the outside.  Not cost effective for the man and his family, and would practically require the woman to return to work while also trying to raise a large family.  Whoops, I forgot that this move is more intended for the N.O., many of whom -- well, contracept. )

To get #2 going, the Church would have to hope that there are that many altruistic and holy married Catholic men out there who are dying to work overtime hours on a regular basis in an emotionally draining "giving [service] profession" while also being full-time husbands and fathers.  What's in it for them?   I mean, in the past, some N.O.-type Catholic men have said that the idea of a very part-time and limited priesthood, one focused more on social activism, sounded attractive to them, but that hardly fills the real needs in the Church.  The Church doesn't need more social activists; it needs men who can both say Mass and hear Confessions without conflicting responsibilities.  Probably they should be trained and formed enough to also do spiritual direction, because that is a crying need in the Church right now and there is quite an unmet demand for spiritual direction currently, and that is much better done by a man trained and formed in virtue through the celibate priesthood.

And no married men will be allowed into trad apostolates.

A long time ago I foolishly thought married priests to be a good idea.  Those who have tried this in the modern era admit that the time and emotional conflicts are enormous and that almost no one can do it, let alone do it well.  Celibacy is not just marriage to Christ's 'Church, His bride.  It is that, of course, but the specific, effective graces of celibacy are ordered to sacrifice and universal charity in a way that opposes the necessary exclusivity of marriage.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Miriam_M on April 24, 2018, 04:43:38 AM
Sorry.  My bad.   Harebrained, but I think hair-brained is just as good.  Hair on the brain as in water on the brain, and all.
 :lol:
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Miriam_M on April 24, 2018, 03:52:06 PM
And we cannot -- practically, realistically, sacramentally, or spiritually -- be married to more than one person at the same time.

Holy Orders = one sacrament of marriage & commitment
Matrimony   = a different sacrament of marriage & commitment

They're in conflict.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: The Harlequin King on April 24, 2018, 03:59:07 PM
And we cannot -- practically, realistically, sacramentally, or spiritually -- be married to more than one person at the same time.

Holy Orders = one sacrament of marriage & commitment
Matrimony   = a different sacrament of marriage & commitment

They're in conflict.

(emphases mine above)

A Catholic is free to believe that it's better for priests to be celibate, or that relaxing the discipline of priestly celibacy is a bad idea.

A Catholic is NOT free to believe that it's sacramentally impossible for a married man to be a priest. That would be heresy, and obviously calling into question the validity of orders for married priests of the Eastern Rites, the Pastoral Provision (former Anglican and Lutheran clergy), and the Eastern Orthodox, whom we believe have valid orders even if they're in schism.

It bears mentioning here that Saint Patrick of Ireland came from a clerical family. His father was a deacon, and his grandfather was a priest. This is the very first thing Patrick mentions in his autobiography.

(Also, as a minor point, deacons also have the sacrament of Holy Orders.)
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Miriam_M on April 24, 2018, 04:14:34 PM
OK.  I shall modify my position, then, to state that it is highly unrealistic to do both, in my opinion and historically (overall) in the opinion of the Latin Church.  I'm not denying that it has been on occasion tried, but I believe that the Church's experience and viewpoint sides with mine regarding the two together as realistically incompatible.  Sorry for any overstatement on my part.

The two sacraments have a problematic dynamic, I maintain, in the level of total commitment demanded by each, separately, making it difficult on the practical level to fulfill the duties of both to a sufficient degree.

[added missing word]
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Miriam_M on April 24, 2018, 04:22:21 PM

A Catholic is free to believe that it's better for priests to be celibate, or that relaxing the discipline of priestly celibacy is a bad idea.


A Catholic is free to believe it because the Roman Church currently believes it to be superior for priests and for the Church not to relax the discipline of celibacy.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: lauermar on April 25, 2018, 11:38:55 PM
Married Priests have been approved in  the Eastern Catholic Churches by the Holy See since the Apostolic era. So it's hard for me to see that quote from St. Bridget as authentic. Saying that, I don't think the discipline of the Latin Church should change.

1. Not all Eastern churches are in communion with the Holy See. Many are schismatic in their thinking and practices (i.e. permitting divorce, contraception and/or abortion in certain cases.)

2. Many Eastern Catholic churches take a different approach to clerical celibacy than the Latin Church does and allow the ordination of married men to the priesthood, ***although not to episcopacy.***
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: lauermar on April 25, 2018, 11:44:12 PM
A friend of mine told me about a story, where an Eastern "Orthodox" Priest needed to work two other jobs in order to provide for his family since it wasn't a requirement to remain celibate. Not only that, but you're likely to end up tithing for his kids' college tuitions instead of for his well-being.

I sincerely hope this isn't the road Rome takes.

The laborer is worth his wage. I don't mind paying for a priest's kid's education any more than paying for the opulent lifestyles of some priests or for the diocese to settle sex abuse claims. A priest answers for how he spends his money, like the rest of us.

Orthodox priests in the West are generally paid by the parish; the diocese does not pay them. If it's a small parish or one that otherwise struggles financially, the priest will often not take a salary from the parish to avoid that expense.

In the ancient Jewish temple, married priests kept continent during the period when they were making sacrifices in the temple. Otherwise, they wouldn't be priests. I don't see how a priest can be married and say daily mass. This idea is Protestant because it treats the mass as a worship service and not a sacrifice. Which convinces me that the novus ordo must not have a propitiary sacrifice.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Penitent on April 25, 2018, 11:44:33 PM
2. Many Eastern Catholic churches take a different approach to clerical celibacy than the Latin Church does and allow the ordination of married men to the priesthood, ***although not to episcopacy.***

All, I believe.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: aquinas138 on April 25, 2018, 11:48:39 PM
A friend of mine told me about a story, where an Eastern "Orthodox" Priest needed to work two other jobs in order to provide for his family since it wasn't a requirement to remain celibate. Not only that, but you're likely to end up tithing for his kids' college tuitions instead of for his well-being.

I sincerely hope this isn't the road Rome takes.

The laborer is worth his wage. I don't mind paying for a priest's kid's education any more than paying for the opulent lifestyles of some priests or for the diocese to settle sex abuse claims. A priest answers for how he spends his money, like the rest of us.

Orthodox priests in the West are generally paid by the parish; the diocese does not pay them. If it's a small parish or one that otherwise struggles financially, the priest will often not take a salary from the parish to avoid that expense.

In the ancient Jewish temple, married priests kept continent during the period when they were making sacrifices in the temple. Otherwise, they wouldn't be priests. I don't see how a priest can be married and say daily mass. This idea is Protestant because it treats the mass as a worship service and not a sacrifice. Which convinces me that the novus ordo must not have a propitiary sacrifice.

I'm sure that plays into why the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics don't generally have a tradition of daily Divine Liturgy outside of monasteries. Married priests are expected to abstain from the marital act for some time before the Liturgy.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: lauermar on April 25, 2018, 11:50:45 PM
And we cannot -- practically, realistically, sacramentally, or spiritually -- be married to more than one person at the same time.

Holy Orders = one sacrament of marriage & commitment
Matrimony   = a different sacrament of marriage & commitment

They're in conflict.

(emphases mine above)

St. Bridget does not agree with married priests or a relaxation of the discipline:  https://gloria.tv/article/PRV2YJx1AKsU1dKu88KDWnLmf

Compromising the Catholic faith to adopt the practices of the so-called schismatic-but-valid Eastern church is hardly a model for us to follow.

A Catholic is free to believe that it's better for priests to be celibate, or that relaxing the discipline of priestly celibacy is a bad idea.

A Catholic is NOT free to believe that it's sacramentally impossible for a married man to be a priest. That would be heresy, and obviously calling into question the validity of orders for married priests of the Eastern Rites, the Pastoral Provision (former Anglican and Lutheran clergy), and the Eastern Orthodox, whom we believe have valid orders even if they're in schism.

It bears mentioning here that Saint Patrick of Ireland came from a clerical family. His father was a deacon, and his grandfather was a priest. This is the very first thing Patrick mentions in his autobiography.

(Also, as a minor point, deacons also have the sacrament of Holy Orders.)
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Gardener on April 25, 2018, 11:54:06 PM
A friend of mine told me about a story, where an Eastern "Orthodox" Priest needed to work two other jobs in order to provide for his family since it wasn't a requirement to remain celibate. Not only that, but you're likely to end up tithing for his kids' college tuitions instead of for his well-being.

I sincerely hope this isn't the road Rome takes.

The laborer is worth his wage. I don't mind paying for a priest's kid's education any more than paying for the opulent lifestyles of some priests or for the diocese to settle sex abuse claims. A priest answers for how he spends his money, like the rest of us.

Orthodox priests in the West are generally paid by the parish; the diocese does not pay them. If it's a small parish or one that otherwise struggles financially, the priest will often not take a salary from the parish to avoid that expense.

In the ancient Jewish temple, married priests kept continent during the period when they were making sacrifices in the temple. Otherwise, they wouldn't be priests. I don't see how a priest can be married and say daily mass. This idea is Protestant because it treats the mass as a worship service and not a sacrifice. Which convinces me that the novus ordo must not have a propitiary sacrifice.

What does any of what you quoted have to do with the Novus Ordo as far as its validity?

And, what does a priest's continence or lack thereof have to do with the Mass itself?
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: The Harlequin King on April 26, 2018, 10:45:02 AM
Lauermar, it might help to parse your reply up. In your last comment, it gives the appearance that your comments and mine are all from one post.

Quote from: lauermar
]St. Bridget does not agree with married priests or a relaxation of the discipline:  https://gloria.tv/article/PRV2YJx1AKsU1dKu88KDWnLmf

Regarding the visions of Saint Bridget, I've never been convinced of their authenticity. Her canonization was for her overall holiness, not the visions in particular. However, even if they were true, the portion you quote speaks only of condemnation to men who are already ordained priests from marrying. Not men already married who then enter the priesthood. That's an important distinction. The Eastern churches do not admit men who are already ordained priests to marry afterward. The Latin Church, likewise, does not allow former Anglican or Lutheran clergy to be ordained as priests and then marry. Even deacons are not allowed to marry after diaconal ordination.

Quote
Compromising the Catholic faith to adopt the practices of the so-called schismatic-but-valid Eastern church is hardly a model for us to follow.

The Eastern churches in communion with Rome already have, and always had, married priests. There is no compromise of the faith here.

And it was Pope Pius XII who authorized the first married priests of the Latin Rite. He approved a few former Lutheran clerics who were married to be ordained as Catholic priests. That was back in 1950.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: The Harlequin King on April 26, 2018, 11:01:01 AM
In the ancient Jewish temple, married priests kept continent during the period when they were making sacrifices in the temple. Otherwise, they wouldn't be priests. I don't see how a priest can be married and say daily mass. This idea is Protestant because it treats the mass as a worship service and not a sacrifice. Which convinces me that the novus ordo must not have a propitiary sacrifice.

It's worth remarking here that priests aren't bound to celebrate Mass daily. Some do not. Others may celebrate daily only as a means for providing daily Mass at their parishes. A priest is, however, bound to pray the Divine Office daily.

As others have remarked, married priests of the Eastern rite don't typically celebrate the Divine Liturgy every day.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: King Wenceslas on April 26, 2018, 03:40:19 PM
Lauermar, it might help to parse your reply up. In your last comment, it gives the appearance that your comments and mine are all from one post.

Quote from: lauermar
]St. Bridget does not agree with married priests or a relaxation of the discipline:  https://gloria.tv/article/PRV2YJx1AKsU1dKu88KDWnLmf

Regarding the visions of Saint Bridget, I've never been convinced of their authenticity. Her canonization was for her overall holiness, not the visions in particular. However, even if they were true, the portion you quote speaks only of condemnation to men who are already ordained priests from marrying. Not men already married who then enter the priesthood. That's an important distinction. The Eastern churches do not admit men who are already ordained priests to marry afterward. The Latin Church, likewise, does not allow former Anglican or Lutheran clergy to be ordained as priests and then marry. Even deacons are not allowed to marry after diaconal ordination.

Quote
Compromising the Catholic faith to adopt the practices of the so-called schismatic-but-valid Eastern church is hardly a model for us to follow.

The Eastern churches in communion with Rome already have, and always had, married priests. There is no compromise of the faith here.

And it was Pope Pius XII who authorized the first married priests of the Latin Rite. He approved a few former Lutheran clerics who were married to be ordained as Catholic priests. That was back in 1950.

Shucks, will have to wait until women are "ordained" to officially break with Rome. Bummer. Can we break with ordination of women deacons? Or do we have to wait until they start worshiping the devil?
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: The Harlequin King on April 26, 2018, 04:11:42 PM
Shucks, will have to wait until women are "ordained" to officially break with Rome. Bummer. Can we break with ordination of women deacons? Or do we have to wait until they start worshiping the devil?

There is no relation between married priests (which have existed since the Apostles) and female clergy (which is a sacramental impossibility).
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Prayerful on April 26, 2018, 05:28:58 PM
If this rigged synod opens, it appears that Cardinal Hummes and the rest of Team Bergoglio are plotting (https://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&sp=nmt4&u=https://www.katholisches.info/2016/09/amazonas-synode-zur-aufhebung-des-zoelibats-missionare-fuer-amazonien-nein-nein-das-will-der-papst-nicht/&xid=17259,15700021,15700043,15700124,15700149,15700168,15700173,15700186,15700201) a radical attack on the priesthood, even in its weakened Conciliar form, not just a modification of a discipline. Ministering to Amazon basin is not remotely the aim. When a bishop proposed that missionary orders be asked to send maybe or two of their priests to help, Cardinal Hummes was visibility annoyed, stating that this was not what the Leader wanted.

Quote
Cardinal Hummes reacted visibly excited and said: "No, no," that was not what the Pope wanted. After the council there should be no more missionaries. Every people must evangelise alone. There should only be a local clergy, only more native priests and bishops, even without academic education.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Older Salt on April 27, 2018, 12:19:50 PM
just ontologically cannot happen
like trying to turn water into a rock
no matter what they say, nothing happens.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: LausTibiChriste on April 27, 2018, 04:27:49 PM
I hope this Synod goes off the rails. I'm sick to death of this grey area. Draw the line in the sand already for crying out loud.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Prayerful on April 27, 2018, 06:25:29 PM
I mostly hope it doesn't happen, that this campaign of insult ends. Bergoglio was installed to do harm, and to protect his lewd and dishonest friends. I hope this ends. There have been morally depraved Popes, like Julius III, mentally disturbed Popes like Urban VI, politicians or lords with little of the priest in them, doctrinally dubious Popes like Honorius or John XXII, but the Argentine seems to combine the stench of lewdness with a relentless hatred for devotion, as evidence by Gaudete et Exsultate  (http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20180319_gaudete-et-exsultate.html) and actions like pulling apart the joined handed of an altar boy, who put his hands back together when Francis moved on.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: kayla_veronica on April 27, 2018, 08:56:37 PM
Shucks, will have to wait until women are "ordained" to officially break with Rome. Bummer. Can we break with ordination of women deacons? Or do we have to wait until they start worshiping the devil?

Those who want to explain it away will find a way to do so.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: lauermar on April 28, 2018, 07:29:28 AM
Here is Loiue's answer to the OP:  women deacons and cardinals are coming.

https://akacatholic.com/surprises-or-not/
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: lauermar on April 28, 2018, 07:42:10 AM
In the ancient Jewish temple, married priests kept continent during the period when they were making sacrifices in the temple. Otherwise, they wouldn't be priests. I don't see how a priest can be married and say daily mass. This idea is Protestant because it treats the mass as a worship service and not a sacrifice. Which convinces me that the novus ordo must not have a propitiary sacrifice.

It's worth remarking here that priests aren't bound to celebrate Mass daily. Some do not. Others may celebrate daily only as a means for providing daily Mass at their parishes. A priest is, however, bound to pray the Divine Office daily.

As others have remarked, married priests of the Eastern rite don't typically celebrate the Divine Liturgy every day.

And so not having a celibate priest available to say liturgy every day is is a good thing?  The church will be filled with weekend-only married guys who are off taking care of wives, kids and jobs. As if that doesn't compromise the practice of the faith?

I can't believe someone asked me why celibacy is necessary before saying mass. It isn't me who doubts the sacrificial nature of mass; rather, it is the one who asked me why.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: aquinas138 on April 28, 2018, 09:04:20 AM
In the ancient Jewish temple, married priests kept continent during the period when they were making sacrifices in the temple. Otherwise, they wouldn't be priests. I don't see how a priest can be married and say daily mass. This idea is Protestant because it treats the mass as a worship service and not a sacrifice. Which convinces me that the novus ordo must not have a propitiary sacrifice.

It's worth remarking here that priests aren't bound to celebrate Mass daily. Some do not. Others may celebrate daily only as a means for providing daily Mass at their parishes. A priest is, however, bound to pray the Divine Office daily.

As others have remarked, married priests of the Eastern rite don't typically celebrate the Divine Liturgy every day.

And so not having a celibate priest available to say liturgy every day is is a good thing?  The church will be filled with weekend-only married guys who are off taking care of wives, kids and jobs. As if that doesn't compromise the practice of the faith?

I can't believe someone asked me why celibacy is necessary before saying mass. It isn't me who doubts the sacrificial nature of mass; rather, it is the one who asked me why.

In the interest of accuracy, celibacy canonically refers to the state of being unmarried, whereas continence refers to refraining from the marital act. Not to nitpick – it is certainly used that way you do in common speech.

No one said not having liturgy daily is a good thing. Many Eastern customs developed in times when the number of priests was enormous; for Heaven's sake, the Byzantine rite of Holy Unction (Anointing of the Sick) envisions *seven priests* to administer. What is being said is that married priests are not, in and of themselves, heralds of the destruction of Catholicism, as they have existed in the Eastern rites since the beginning of the Church, and have existed exceptionally in the Latin rite before Vatican II, as well. In any event, if there are more priests than there are currently, a church could have daily liturgy without having every priest say Mass daily.

As for sexual continence before the liturgy, the Eastern churches are strict on this point, as they are also diligent about reminding laity that they should abstain before receiving Communion as well. Obviously there's no reasonable way to enforce it, but there's also no way to prevent a Latin-rite priest from breaking his vow before administering the sacraments, as we all know happens and has happened from the beginning. In either case, we're not Donatists.

The real issue, I think, is a practical one. The Latin Church is not culturally set up to support married priests on a large scale. Priests are not highly paid, though they are often provided with housing. Medical care is a large cost; will dioceses offer insurance to priestly families? Supporting married priests obviously can be done – it has been done in the Christian East literally since the beginning of the Church – but there would need to be some fundamental practical changes.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Gardener on April 28, 2018, 11:28:24 AM
In the ancient Jewish temple, married priests kept continent during the period when they were making sacrifices in the temple. Otherwise, they wouldn't be priests. I don't see how a priest can be married and say daily mass. This idea is Protestant because it treats the mass as a worship service and not a sacrifice. Which convinces me that the novus ordo must not have a propitiary sacrifice.

It's worth remarking here that priests aren't bound to celebrate Mass daily. Some do not. Others may celebrate daily only as a means for providing daily Mass at their parishes. A priest is, however, bound to pray the Divine Office daily.

As others have remarked, married priests of the Eastern rite don't typically celebrate the Divine Liturgy every day.

And so not having a celibate priest available to say liturgy every day is is a good thing?  The church will be filled with weekend-only married guys who are off taking care of wives, kids and jobs. As if that doesn't compromise the practice of the faith?

I can't believe someone asked me why celibacy is necessary before saying mass. It isn't me who doubts the sacrificial nature of mass; rather, it is the one who asked me why.

No... the problem is that you *seem* to be conflating the holiness of the celebrant with the validity of the Sacrament. That's Donatism.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: lauermar on April 29, 2018, 10:53:00 AM
We are not the East. If the Latin church allowed rare exception for married priests it was with good reason! Let the East adopt the more rigorous standard of the Latin.  They probably won't. So let their leadership answer to God about that one day. That's their business.

A married man cannot keep continent to say mass 7 days a week. It would be incompatible with the ends of marriage. Since we don't need 7 men to say mass, then having daily mass available for propiation of the multitude of sins against God here is a good and necessary thing. Let the East answer to God for requiring 7 men for a sacrament so it imposes a burden against offering it more frequently.

Married men are simply too divided in balancing home life, work and earthly pursuits to give 110% of themselves to God. The closer you get to Him, the more He demands of your time and attention. More so if you're His vicar on earth.

Has anyone forgotten that married Catholic men quietly contracept and divorce at the same rate as non-Catholics?  Why else do you think Bergoglio speaks softly on discipline regarding these things.

We don't need married priests. If they are quietly not continent because of relaxed discipline then they're not able to say a valid mass. A continent priest is necessary. That's why the exception for a married man was historically rare.

Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Kreuzritter on April 29, 2018, 11:25:43 AM
Quote
If they are quietly not continent because of relaxed discipline then they're not able to say a valid mass.

Now you don’t merely seem to be be saying it; you’ve explicitly stated it.

But this goes beyond Donatism into claiming that a priest can somehow cease - at least temporarily - to be a priest (“Otherwise they wouldn’t be priests”). So much for that indelible mark.

The mind boggles at the self-made doctrines some of you concoct for yourselves.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: aquinas138 on April 29, 2018, 03:43:53 PM
We are not the East. If the Latin church allowed rare exception for married priests it was with good reason! Let the East adopt the more rigorous standard of the Latin.  They probably won't. So let their leadership answer to God about that one day. That's their business.

A married man cannot keep continent to say mass 7 days a week. It would be incompatible with the ends of marriage. Since we don't need 7 men to say mass, then having daily mass available for propiation of the multitude of sins against God here is a good and necessary thing. Let the East answer to God for requiring 7 men for a sacrament so it imposes a burden against offering it more frequently.

Married men are simply too divided in balancing home life, work and earthly pursuits to give 110% of themselves to God. The closer you get to Him, the more He demands of your time and attention. More so if you're His vicar on earth.

Has anyone forgotten that married Catholic men quietly contracept and divorce at the same rate as non-Catholics?  Why else do you think Bergoglio speaks softly on discipline regarding these things.

We don't need married priests. If they are quietly not continent because of relaxed discipline then they're not able to say a valid mass. A continent priest is necessary. That's why the exception for a married man was historically rare.

I'm not saying the Latin Church should adopt Eastern praxis; I'm saying were it to do so, it is not the end of Catholicism. Roman Catholics sometimes speak as if it is an ontological impossibility to have married priests, despite the fact that there have always been such, and even married bishops for several centuries. Generally speaking, I think the West should be the West, and the East should be the East, though there are areas in which I think our perspective towards the Christian East (and the Orthodox perspective of the Catholic West) have been somewhat deformed after living apart for 1000 years in a state of general acrimony.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Livenotonevil on April 29, 2018, 04:42:28 PM
We are not the East. If the Latin church allowed rare exception for married priests it was with good reason! Let the East adopt the more rigorous standard of the Latin.  They probably won't. So let their leadership answer to God about that one day. That's their business.

A married man cannot keep continent to say mass 7 days a week. It would be incompatible with the ends of marriage. Since we don't need 7 men to say mass, then having daily mass available for propiation of the multitude of sins against God here is a good and necessary thing. Let the East answer to God for requiring 7 men for a sacrament so it imposes a burden against offering it more frequently.

Married men are simply too divided in balancing home life, work and earthly pursuits to give 110% of themselves to God. The closer you get to Him, the more He demands of your time and attention. More so if you're His vicar on earth.

Has anyone forgotten that married Catholic men quietly contracept and divorce at the same rate as non-Catholics?  Why else do you think Bergoglio speaks softly on discipline regarding these things.

We don't need married priests. If they are quietly not continent because of relaxed discipline then they're not able to say a valid mass. A continent priest is necessary. That's why the exception for a married man was historically rare.

I'm not saying the Latin Church should adopt Eastern praxis; I'm saying were it to do so, it is not the end of Catholicism. Roman Catholics sometimes speak as if it is an ontological impossibility to have married priests, despite the fact that there have always been such, and even married bishops for several centuries. Generally speaking, I think the West should be the West, and the East should be the East, though there are areas in which I think our perspective towards the Christian East (and the Orthodox perspective of the Catholic West) have been somewhat deformed after living apart for 1000 years in a state of general acrimony.

Even the Bible (1 Timothy 3) makes mention of married bishops, but over time, it made more practical sense to forbid the practice, especially considering the properties that the Bishops "technically" owned that they could give to their kids.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: The Harlequin King on April 30, 2018, 09:37:44 AM
And so not having a celibate priest available to say liturgy every day is is a good thing?  The church will be filled with weekend-only married guys who are off taking care of wives, kids and jobs. As if that doesn't compromise the practice of the faith?

Umm.... no, that's definitely not what I'm saying. Rather, that it's better to have a married priest to offer Mass on a Sunday than no priest at all, as is the case in many places. Interestingly, the only TLM in the entire state of Delaware is celebrated most usually by a married priest (a former Lutheran pastor). Apparently all those celibate priests can't be bothered to learn the old rite, but an ex-Protestant can.

This image is appropriate to my reaction, though:

(https://i.imgflip.com/236ale.jpg)

Quote
I can't believe someone asked me why celibacy is necessary before saying mass. It isn't me who doubts the sacrificial nature of mass; rather, it is the one who asked me why.

You mean continence. However, the celebrant engaging in sexual activity before Mass (whether in or even out of marriage) doesn't make a Mass invalid. That would be heresy to suggest such.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: lauermar on May 06, 2018, 05:27:41 PM
My mind boggles at how casual is this attitude toward having a shortage of celibate dedicated priests in the Catholic faith. You'd rather water down the faith by filling it with a bunch of married weekend dads running after kids soccer games in between saying mass on Sunday. Any novelty that other churches are doing is something the Catholic church ought to try, right?  .

And you throw repeatedly throw out straw man arguments like Donatism which have no application to the availability of celibate vocations, which is the topic here.

Keep it up. You'll wake up one day and find yourself in a church that calls itself Catholic but is Protestant.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Geremia on May 06, 2018, 06:23:24 PM
[The Vatican II, Conciliar] church…calls itself Catholic but is Protestant.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: abc123 on May 06, 2018, 09:03:05 PM
My mind boggles at how casual is this attitude toward having a shortage of celibate dedicated priests in the Catholic faith. You'd rather water down the faith by filling it with a bunch of married weekend dads running after kids soccer games in between saying mass on Sunday. Any novelty that other churches are doing is something the Catholic church ought to try, right?  .

First off having married clergy is not a novelty as has been pointed out several times in this thread.

Second a look at the lives of married Byzantine Catholic priests in Eastern European countries shows yours to be a gross mischaracterization of how they live their vocations. They are not part time priests as you seem to imply.

Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: aquinas138 on May 06, 2018, 09:22:01 PM
My mind boggles at how casual is this attitude toward having a shortage of celibate dedicated priests in the Catholic faith. You'd rather water down the faith by filling it with a bunch of married weekend dads running after kids soccer games in between saying mass on Sunday. Any novelty that other churches are doing is something the Catholic church ought to try, right?

A baseless slander against married priests, of which I am confident you know none.

Quote
And you throw repeatedly throw out straw man arguments like Donatism which have no application to the availability of celibate vocations, which is the topic here.

Donatism is hardly a straw man when you say that a priest not living his celibate vocation cannot say a valid Mass. That's pretty textbook Donatism.

Quote
Keep it up. You'll wake up one day and find yourself in a church that calls itself Catholic but is Protestant.

We already have it, and it didn't take married priests to get there.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Gardener on May 07, 2018, 12:22:17 PM
We are not the East. If the Latin church allowed rare exception for married priests it was with good reason! Let the East adopt the more rigorous standard of the Latin.  They probably won't. So let their leadership answer to God about that one day. That's their business.

A married man cannot keep continent to say mass 7 days a week. It would be incompatible with the ends of marriage. Since we don't need 7 men to say mass, then having daily mass available for propiation of the multitude of sins against God here is a good and necessary thing. Let the East answer to God for requiring 7 men for a sacrament so it imposes a burden against offering it more frequently.

Married men are simply too divided in balancing home life, work and earthly pursuits to give 110% of themselves to God. The closer you get to Him, the more He demands of your time and attention. More so if you're His vicar on earth.

Has anyone forgotten that married Catholic men quietly contracept and divorce at the same rate as non-Catholics?  Why else do you think Bergoglio speaks softly on discipline regarding these things.

We don't need married priests. If they are quietly not continent because of relaxed discipline then they're not able to say a valid mass. A continent priest is necessary. That's why the exception for a married man was historically rare.

Let me state the following up front: I do not agree with married men being ordained as a general rule. As a former (Baptist) pastor's kid, I can tell you without scruple that such is an awful life for all involved. And yes, the "work"/life balance is untenable for 99% of people.

But a man ordained a priest is a priest forever in the order of melchisedech. He is always a priest, regardless of his personal actions, just as a baptized person is always baptized regardless of his sins.

Yes, there is potential for much more scandal: how can Fr. so-and-so lead his flock when he cannot even lead his family!? How can Fr. talk about obedience, when his own wife is a feminist? How can Fr. be trusted for marital advice when it's obvious he's having issues with his own wife -- is THAT why he took the husband's side in an argument? If he is in a situation because of lack of priests, there are no other priests in his area to hear his family's confessions, so how will he actually deal with the seal of confession in the context of his own family? He is BOUND to not take that outside the box. What if his wife confesses to him, or his kids? Will she actually confess her infidelity? Will his son actually confess his having stolen the offering money? Or that HE broke the stained-glass window while playing ball in the front yard? Can he impose a natural father's punishment in the context of being a supernatural father? Oh man... I don't know the answers to those questions and frankly, they seem like a very rock and hard place style existence.

Oh, the problems are many.

Continence is the least of your worries. His Sacraments will ALWAYS be valid so long as he has proper form, matter, and intent.

I am not challenging you on the sensibility of married priests.

I'm challenging you on your outright Donatism, and as Kreuzritter has point out, the heresy of a priest ceasing to be a priest for personal flaws, sins, etc.

Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: lauermar on June 06, 2018, 08:56:05 AM
Xavier's OP is spot-on.  Thank you, St. Bridget!

It doesn't stop with married men, that's the point Xavier's making. Where do the novelties end? What's the limit?  So I'm a Donatist if I refuse to take communion from a publicly transgender priest in rainbow chausable.

And I'm a Donatist if I refuse to take communion from a priest in hijab.  https://novusordowatch.org/2018/05/priest-wears-headscarf-to-protest-anti-muslim-discrimination/

Knock it off with the Donatism slander. That is b.s. and you know it. This has nothing to do with the private sins of the priests at my parish and their consecrations at mass. I'm objecting to the Protestant direction the Catholic church is taking.

By the time you ordain married men and women as priests, women deacons, women cardinals,  lay "elders" running the church (inclusive of LGBTs), communion services, etc...the church is no longer recognizably Catholic. The Novus Ordo mass is already diluted to appeal to Protestants. Now add this to these new types of ordinations which are questionable. A faux priest cannot confect a sacrament. God does not require me to approach doubtful sacraments.

Married priests certainly *are* a novelty. If they weren't, there'd be no need to have a synod about it:  https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/close-collaborator-of-pope-francis-advocates-female-priests.

I don't know any married priests and I hope I never do.  Let the Byzantine church answer to God for their ordination of married men. In 304 AD, the first written requirement for those seeking ordination to remain celibate can be documented. Canon 33 of the Council of Elvira required all clergy to abstain "from their wives and not to have children." Some Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Christians give lesser credence to this council and the practice of ordaining married men to the order of deacon and priest has a long history in their ranks.     https://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=70507

Since cultural appropriation of the East is so fashionable, why not accept case-by-case abortion, contraception, and up to 3 divorces like the Orthodox do? [sarcasm]

Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Habitual_Ritual on June 06, 2018, 09:43:12 AM
Quote
Transgender people encouraged to become priests in Church of England diversity drive

It only ends in heavenly fire-balls:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/26/transgender-people-encouraged-become-priests-church-england/
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: lauermar on June 06, 2018, 09:57:49 AM
Quote
Transgender people encouraged to become priests in Church of England diversity drive

It only ends in heavenly fire-balls:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/26/transgender-people-encouraged-become-priests-church-england/

Oh yeah! And I'd be accused of Donatism if I refuse to take communion from a diversity priest like those in the article, if one was "ordained" into the Catholic church.

 :vomit:
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Habitual_Ritual on June 06, 2018, 10:03:51 AM
Currently reading this

http://fatherwathen.com/product/the-great-sacrilege/
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: lauermar on June 06, 2018, 10:05:32 AM
I also recommend "Work Of Human Hands."
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Older Salt on June 06, 2018, 10:05:43 AM
People said that about the Canonisation of JP2
Rome can sat anything they want, it will never make a wolverine a pear.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: jovan66102 on June 06, 2018, 01:24:50 PM
I just saw this, so if my points have already been made, my apologies.

I am Eastern Rite. I have had pastors who were married men and were holy, hard working, good priests, but I absolutely oppose changing the discipline in the West. No Church, East or West, has ever allowed priests to marry. Anciently, and in the East today, married men are ordained to the priesthood, but if they are widowed, they must remain celibate. The episcopate is drawn from the monastics, or on rare occasions, from the widowed clergy.

If priests are actually allowed to marry, not married men being ordained, it is a radical rupture with the Tradition of the Church both East and West. The next step will be a married episcopate, and after that, who knows? But, I'll guarantee you that it will include mounting calls for 'priestesses'.

And, I predict that if the Western discipline is changed to conform to the Eastern practice, it will just be the opening wedge for all of the above.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Kaesekopf on June 06, 2018, 06:28:17 PM
This thread shows the wisdom of 1 Timothy 2:12, as an aside...

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: spasiisochrani on June 06, 2018, 10:42:37 PM
In response to one of the points made above:

Married priests do not hear the confession of their wives or children.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Xavier on June 07, 2018, 04:51:07 AM
Doctrinally, yes (1) celibate men who are ordained to the priesthood should remain celibate (2) married men are sometimes ordained, the requirement of celibacy being dispensed in their case. This happens in the Eastern Catholic Churches and on rare occasions in the west, when former Anglican or Lutheran ministers are ordained as Catholic priests etc and (3) bishops are exclusively chosen from perpetually continent men, in both east and west, by the universal Tradition and practice of the Church.

1. In researching the question, I found a brief article below: clerical celibacy in the west has a long history, right from Elvira, Spain in 306 A.D. It was apparently discussed in Nicaea but a universal discipline was not arrived at. St. Epiphanius of Salamis does however commend the monastic discipline as a more strict observance that is befitting the dignity of the priesthood and a long line of Popes have enforced this discipline in the west. Eastern canons passed over lower orders but specifically decreed bishops must practise the monastic discipline, to the point of separating from one's former wife. https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/celibacy-in-the-priesthood.html

Quote
"St. Epiphanius of Salamis (d. 403) stated, "Holy Church respects the dignity of the priesthood to such a point that she does not admit to the deaconate, the priesthood or the episcopate, nor even to the subdeaconate, anyone still living in marriage and begetting children. She accepts only him who if married gives up his wife or has lost her by death, especially in those places where the ecclesiastical canons are strictly attended to." The local, Spanish Council of Elvira (306) imposed celibacy on bishops, priests, and deacons: "We decree that all bishops, priests, deacons, and all clerics engaged in the ministry are forbidden entirely to live with their wives and to beget children: whoever shall do so will be deposed from the clerical dignity." Later, the Council of Carthage extended the celibacy requirement to the subdeaconate ... At the ecumenical Council of Nicea I (325), Bishop Hosius of Cordova proposed a decree mandating clerical celibacy, including for those clergy already married. Egyptian Bishop Paphnutius, unmarried himself, rose in protest, asserting that such a requirement would be too rigorous and imprudent. Rather, those members of the clergy already married should continue to be faithful to their wives, and those who were unmarried should personally decide whether or not to be celibate. As a consequence, no church-wide requirement for priests to be celibate was mandated. For the Western Church several popes decreed celibacy: Damasus I (384), Siricius (385), Innocent I (404), and Leo I (458). Local councils issued edicts imposing celibacy on the clergy: in Africa, Carthage (390, 401-19); in France, Orange (441) and Tours (461); and in Italy, Turin (398). By the time of Pope Leo I (d. 461), no bishop, priest, deacon, or subdeacon could be married. Nevertheless, the rules were not always as enforced as they should have been.

In the Eastern Church, a distinction was made between bishops and other clergy as to whether they had to be celibate. Emperor Justinians Code of Civil Law forbade anyone who had children or even nephews to be consecrated a bishop. The Council of Trullo (692) mandated that a bishop be celibate, and if he were married, he would have to separate from his wife before his consecration. Priests, deacons, and subdeacons were forbidden to marry after ordination, although they were to continue to fulfill their marital vows if married before ordination. These regulations still stand for most of the Eastern Churches.

... the Council of Trent in its Doctrine on the Sacrament of Orders (1563) stipulated that although celibacy was not a divine law, the Church had the authority to impose celibacy as a discipline. While holding celibacy in high regard, the Church did not diminish the sanctity of marriage or marital love. Moreover, the Council asserted that celibacy was not impossible to live but at the same time recognized that celibates needed the grace of God to do so.

2. Practically speaking, the current situation in the Church is very grave. In Brazil, for e.g. there is a dramatic shortage of priests and that's where this God-forsaken idea from the pit of hell is being put forth from. In Brazil, priests have lapsed like hirelings from their duties to their flock to go live with women in attempted "marriages". That's what the Mother of God clearly condemns to St. Bridget, and what modern churchmen, to their shame, have no problem with and want to encourage first in Brazil and then in the wider church. The disciplinary issue of clerical celibacy in history aside, I think all traditional Catholics can clearly see the below is a heinous abomination. https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/brazil-may-soon-have-married-priests-says-leonardo-boff

Quote
"The Brazilian bishops, especially the pope's close friend Cardinal Claudio Hummes, have expressly requested Pope Francis to enable married priests in Brazil to return to their pastoral ministry," Boff said. "I have recently heard that the pope wants to fulfil this request — as an experimental, preliminary phase for the moment confined to Brazil."

With its 140 million Catholics, Brazil needs at least 100,000 priests but it only has 1,800, which is a "catastrophe," Boff said. "No wonder the faithful are going over to the evangelical churches or to the Pentecostals in droves, as they are filling the personnel vacuum. If the many thousands of priests who have married are once again allowed to practice their ministry, that would be a first step to improving the situation but at the same time also an impulse for the church to free itself of the fetters of celibacy."

Asked if he, as a former Franciscan, would reassume his priestly ministry should the pope decide to acquiesce to the Brazilian bishops' request, Boff replied, "I personally do not need such a decision. It would not change anything for me as I have continued to do what I have always done: I baptize, bury and when I come to a community that has no priest, I celebrate Mass with the faithful. Up to now, as far as I know, no bishop has ever objected, let alone forbidden me to do this. On the contrary, bishops often tell me to keep it up, as people have a right to the Eucharist."

The late Cardinal Paulo Evaristo Arns, under whom Boff studied theology, had always been very open on this issue, Boff said. Whenever Arns noticed married priests in the pews, he would invite them to come up to the altar and concelebrate with him, saying, "They are still priests and they will remain priests!"
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: ermy_law on June 07, 2018, 12:48:11 PM
In response to one of the points made above:

Married priests do not hear the confession of their wives or children.

Which married priests? I have seen this done among the Russian Orthodox diaspora.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: JackoPaul on June 07, 2018, 05:44:07 PM
does that mean homosexual priests will be able to marry each other?
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Greg on June 07, 2018, 07:08:04 PM
Keep it up. You'll wake up one day and find yourself in a church that calls itself Catholic but is Protestant.

We've been there for decades.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: spasiisochrani on June 07, 2018, 08:37:37 PM
In response to one of the points made above:

Married priests do not hear the confession of their wives or children.

Which married priests? I have seen this done among the Russian Orthodox diaspora.

The (Catholic) Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches does not address the issue, but my pastor says it is just not done.  His wife and children go to a neighboring Latin parish for confession.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: St. Drogo on June 15, 2018, 02:19:43 AM
I suppose I’m in the minority, but what’s new? While recognizing the superiority of celibacy (since that fact is scripturally established by Paul), I am not averse to ordaining married men. Trad or not, the faithful Catholic married men I know are consistently less homosexual seeming than the bulk of priests (sadly, trad or not). The historical evidence for continency of married priests is scant (exluding, naturally, the consistently celibate episcopate in the East and West).
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: jovan66102 on June 15, 2018, 02:49:50 AM
As I pointed out, if the West changes its discipline, it's the opening wedge. Next it's allowing priests to marry, a married Episcopate, and calls for 'priestesses'.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: lauermar on July 20, 2018, 12:21:19 PM
Here's an update:

Smith said that she had “serious concerns” about some of the recommendations and other content and about the fact the some of the most significant points in the document, such as speaking of the “regional" church” the promotion of a synod of laity who would take part in determining doctrine, and the ordination of female deacons, were not fully discussed during the course of the meetings.  She was not invited back to be a part of the commission as it considers the question of how the universal and local church in communion discern right ethical teaching.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/vatican-publishes-document-declaring-a-female-diaconate-is-a-possibility-in (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/vatican-publishes-document-declaring-a-female-diaconate-is-a-possibility-in)
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: aquinas138 on July 20, 2018, 07:10:08 PM
Here's an update:

Smith said that she had “serious concerns” about some of the recommendations and other content and about the fact the some of the most significant points in the document, such as speaking of the “regional" church” the promotion of a synod of laity who would take part in determining doctrine, and the ordination of female deacons, were not fully discussed during the course of the meetings.  She was not invited back to be a part of the commission as it considers the question of how the universal and local church in communion discern right ethical teaching.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/vatican-publishes-document-declaring-a-female-diaconate-is-a-possibility-in (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/vatican-publishes-document-declaring-a-female-diaconate-is-a-possibility-in)

Whatever disagreements we have had in this thread – the bolded portion would be an unmitigated disaster.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Xavier on June 18, 2019, 08:13:47 AM
Article from the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/17/world/europe/vatican-priests-married-men.html
Quote
"ROME — In a potentially groundbreaking move, the Roman Catholic Church on Monday cracked open the door to ordaining married, elderly men to the priesthood to meet the pastoral needs of Catholics in remote areas of the Amazon.

The proposal would respond to the dearth of priests in the region by ordaining “viri probati,” or men of proven character, as they are known in Latin. It is the kind of exception to the celibacy requirement that church experts say — and church traditionalists worry — could be a step toward the ordination of married men in other areas of the world.

While affirming that “celibacy is a gift for the Church,” the Vatican document notes that there have been requests to consider, for the most remote areas of the Amazon, “the possibility of conferring priestly ordination on elderly men, preferably indigenous, respected and accepted members of their community.” Such men, the document said, could be ordained “even if they already have an established and stable family.”

Pope Francis has said in the past that he would entertain the possibility of ordaining “viri probati” in remote areas that are deprived of the sacraments. But he has also made clear that the church’s broader commitment to celibacy for priests remains intact."

Celibacy in the Early Church from Unam Sanctam Catholicam: Just one source among many, "Canon 3 of the Council of Carthage (390)

"Bishop Genthelius says: As was previously said, it is fitting that the holy bishops and priests of God as well as the Levites; i.e., those who are in the service of the divine sacraments, observe perfect continence, so that they may obtain in all simplicity what they are asking from God; what the apostles taught and what antiquity itself observed, let us also endeavor to keep.

The bishops declared unanimously: It pleases us all that bishop, priest and deacon, guardians of purity, abstain from conjugal intercourse with their wives, so that those who serve the altar may keep a perfect chastity."

Again, the need to devote themselves to constant prayer is cited as the reason for priestly continence. This commitment to absolute continence is said to be "what the apostles taught and what antiquity itself observed." http://www.unamsanctamcatholicam.com/history/79-history/465-celibacy-in-the-early-church.html

And to recap the summary of that historical study from Catholic education posted earlier, "St. Epiphanius of Salamis (d. 403) stated, "Holy Church respects the dignity of the priesthood to such a point that she does not admit to the deaconate, the priesthood or the episcopate, nor even to the subdeaconate, anyone still living in marriage and begetting children. She accepts only him who if married gives up his wife or has lost her by death, especially in those places where the ecclesiastical canons are strictly attended to." The local, Spanish Council of Elvira (306) imposed celibacy on bishops, priests, and deacons: "We decree that all bishops, priests, deacons, and all clerics engaged in the ministry are forbidden entirely to live with their wives and to beget children: whoever shall do so will be deposed from the clerical dignity." Later, the Council of Carthage extended the celibacy requirement to the subdeaconate ... At the ecumenical Council of Nicea I (325), Bishop Hosius of Cordova proposed a decree mandating clerical celibacy, including for those clergy already married. Egyptian Bishop Paphnutius, unmarried himself, rose in protest, asserting that such a requirement would be too rigorous and imprudent. Rather, those members of the clergy already married should continue to be faithful to their wives, and those who were unmarried should personally decide whether or not to be celibate. As a consequence, no church-wide requirement for priests to be celibate was mandated. For the Western Church several popes decreed celibacy: Damasus I (384), Siricius (385), Innocent I (404), and Leo I (458). Local councils issued edicts imposing celibacy on the clergy: in Africa, Carthage (390, 401-19); in France, Orange (441) and Tours (461); and in Italy, Turin (398). By the time of Pope Leo I (d. 461), no bishop, priest, deacon, or subdeacon could be married. Nevertheless, the rules were not always as enforced as they should have been ... "  https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/celibacy-in-the-priesthood.html

It is clearly not at all the Will of God for the Roman-Rite Church to revise the Apostolic and Canonical Norm and Tradition of Clerical Continence.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Xavier on July 25, 2019, 06:32:10 AM
Here is Canon 33 of the Council of Elvira(305 A.D):

"It has seemed good to absolutely forbid the bishops, the priests, and the deacons, i.e., all the clerics in the service of the sacred ministry, to have relations with their wives and procreate children; should anyone do so, let him be excluded from the honor of the clergy."

The Spanish Synod of Elvira, occurring eight years before the Edict of Milan and twenty-years before Nicaea, represents the first time we see the law of continence specifically spelled out canonically. Continence is mandated for all Major Orders - deacon, priest, bishop - and it is made explicitly clear that this applies to married clerics in a particular way. Neither this synod nor any subsequent councils suggest they are promulgating novelty. Elvira and succeeding synods state that they are simply reaffirming existing Tradition.

Canon 29 of the First Council of Arles (314)

"Moreover, concerned with what is worthy, pure, and honest, we exhort our brothers in the episcopate to make sure that priests and deacons have no [sexual] relations with their wives, since they are serving the ministry everyday. Whoever will act against this decision will be deposed from the honor of the clergy."

Notice how continence is linked to the permanent ministerial activity of the cleric, as we saw with Tertullian and Origen."

From the Unam Sanctam Catholicam link given earlier; see how clear the early Canons and the early Councils, like the early Popes, are on the general norm of Sacerdotal Celibacy being closely linked with daily or perpetual ministry at the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar.

And let Catholic ultra ultra ultra-montanists take a second, a third, and if necessary a 1000th or 10000th look if necessary at the statement of St. Bridget- indeed, of Our Lady Herself through Her to us, specifically for these our times - to convince themselves once and for all that a Pope can make mistakes - and that without losing his office. Although indeed we must confess that a Pope who made this mistake would lose his own soul.

So, as good and faithful children of Christ our great High Priest and of His only Bride, our Holy Mother the Church, let us pray that that never happens and let us resolve to become true prayer warriors capable of winning breakthroughs through prayer alone, as Origen and Scripture says Moses won against the Amalekites, and let us labour to save Pope Francis' Soul.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Vetus Ordo on July 25, 2019, 07:18:18 PM
The Spanish Synod of Elvira, occurring eight years before the Edict of Milan and twenty-years before Nicaea, represents the first time we see the law of continence specifically spelled out canonically.

Elvira also forbade images in churches.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: St.Justin on July 25, 2019, 09:22:02 PM
The rule in all Catholic Rites is that allow married clergy as always been. Married men can be Ordained but once Ordained they aren't allow to marry ans this applies to permanent Deacons in the Latin Rite. Is this norm changing??/
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: The Harlequin King on July 25, 2019, 10:00:10 PM
The Spanish Synod of Elvira, occurring eight years before the Edict of Milan and twenty-years before Nicaea, represents the first time we see the law of continence specifically spelled out canonically.

Elvira also forbade images in churches.

Yeah. It puzzles me why Elvira is frequently quoted by trads as a silver bullet against married clergy in all cases when there are all kinds of funky canons therein. Elvira was historically significant as a precursor to the first real ecumenical council at Nicaea, but on the other hand, it primarily addressed issues stemming from a small part of the Christian world (southern Spain).
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Davis Blank - EG on July 25, 2019, 10:24:16 PM
Once we have married priests we will have to switch to three divorces is a-ok so that Father Bob does not scandalize the laity when he inevitably gets a divorce or two or three.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Sempronius on July 26, 2019, 12:06:36 AM
The Spanish Synod of Elvira, occurring eight years before the Edict of Milan and twenty-years before Nicaea, represents the first time we see the law of continence specifically spelled out canonically.

Elvira also forbade images in churches.

Yeah. It puzzles me why Elvira is frequently quoted by trads as a silver bullet against married clergy in all cases when there are all kinds of funky canons therein. Elvira was historically significant as a precursor to the first real ecumenical council at Nicaea, but on the other hand, it primarily addressed issues stemming from a small part of the Christian world (southern Spain).

The council fathers at Nicaea debated about celibacy, so the issue wasnt settled by the Elvira council.
Title: Re: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?
Post by: Xavier on July 27, 2019, 10:16:10 AM
Has everyone read, dear friends, the detailed explanations in the links given on the history and the doctrinal reasons given? There are Apostolic Canons with the expectation that Clerics should try to live in continence. Even in the Bible, St. Paul says he who marries does well, but he who does not marry, for the Lord's sake, does better; Our Lord taught the same, and the Church has dogmatically defined it in the Council of Trent. The privilege of ministering at the Altar everyday should make a Christian Priest want to live as much like Christ Our Lord as possible, our perpetually celibate Priest, and eternal Model of Clerical Continence.

Here's another recent article from St. Benedict's Centre on the norm of Priestly Celibacy being Apostolic Tradition: https://catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-347.html

1. Ecclesiastical Canons of the Holy Apostles (c. 300)

Peter said: It would be better for the bishop not to be married; or else let him be the husband of one wife...
John said: There must therefore...be priests, who would have lived a long time in the world and would abstain in a certain way from relations with their wives.

2. Canon 29 of the First Council of Arles (314)

"Moreover, concerned with what is worthy, pure, and honest, we exhort our brothers in the episcopate to make sure that priests and deacons have no [sexual] relations with their wives, since they are serving the ministry everyday. Whoever will act against this decision will be deposed from the honor of the clergy."

3. Canon attributed to St. Gregory the Illuminator (Armenia, c. 365)

"The priest who has taken a wife will have to do penance for seven years outside and then for two years inside the Church. He will not have the right to receive communion for an additional two years, and only then will he be admitted to communion."

4. Canon 3 of the Council of Carthage (390)

"Bishop Genthelius says: As was previously said, it is fitting that the holy bishops and priests of God as well as the Levites; i.e., those who are in the service of the divine sacraments, observe perfect continence, so that they may obtain in all simplicity what they are asking from God; what the apostles taught and what antiquity itself observed, let us also endeavor to keep.

The bishops declared unanimously: It pleases us all that bishop, priest and deacon, guardians of purity, abstain from conjugal intercourse with their wives, so that those who serve the altar may keep a perfect chastity."

"Levites" in the above means Deacons. By analogy with the 3 grades of order that existed in ancient Israel, Deacons were sometimes call Levites.

The Catholic Education link given earlier gives the authentic history. Note that St. Epiphanius, for e.g, while observing some regional variation occurs because the Church has not yet mandated a universal requirement (which She has the authority to do if She chooses; Nicaea itself implies this, and Trent explicitly says it; but nevertheless in practice, She gives occasional dispensation for serious reasons on rare occasions. That is not an excuse to overthrow the Tradition of Continence linked to Ministry at the Altar totally) is full of praise for the stricter discipline; saying the canons prescribed it.

Quote
At the ecumenical Council of Nicea I (325), Bishop Hosius of Cordova proposed a decree mandating clerical celibacy, including for those clergy already married. Egyptian Bishop Paphnutius, unmarried himself, rose in protest, asserting that such a requirement would be too rigorous and imprudent. Rather, those members of the clergy already married should continue to be faithful to their wives, and those who were unmarried should personally decide whether or not to be celibate. As a consequence, no church-wide requirement for priests to be celibate was mandated.

During this time, however, the new spiritual fervor of "white martyrdom" arose. During the persecution, many suffered "red martyrdom," the shedding of their blood for the faith. With white martyrdom, men and women chose to renounce the things of this world and to die to their old selves so as to rise to live a life totally dedicated to Christ. This notion of a white martyrdom was the thrust behind monasticism and the vows of poverty, chastity (including celibacy), and obedience.

At this point, the tradition of clerical celibacy differed between the Western and Eastern traditions of the Church. For the Western Church several popes decreed celibacy: Damasus I (384), Siricius (385), Innocent I (404), and Leo I (458). Local councils issued edicts imposing celibacy on the clergy: in Africa, Carthage (390, 401-19); in France, Orange (441) and Tours (461); and in Italy, Turin (398). By the time of Pope Leo I (d. 461), no bishop, priest, deacon, or subdeacon could be married. Nevertheless, the rules were not always as enforced as they should have been.

In the Eastern Church, a distinction was made between bishops and other clergy as to whether they had to be celibate. Emperor Justinians Code of Civil Law forbade anyone who had children or even nephews to be consecrated a bishop. The Council of Trullo (692) mandated that a bishop be celibate, and if he were married, he would have to separate from his wife before his consecration. Priests, deacons, and subdeacons were forbidden to marry after ordination, although they were to continue to fulfill their marital vows if married before ordination. These regulations still stand for most of the Eastern Churches.