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The Church Courtyard => Catholic Liturgical Life => Topic started by: jmjZelie on May 14, 2017, 02:46:48 PM

Title: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: jmjZelie on May 14, 2017, 02:46:48 PM
Hi all!

Quick question for everyone. My family has only been Catholic for about 7 years now, so we are still learning basic Catholic habits. We do a family Rosary together every evening. We have learned the prayers on the Rosary in Latin, including the Salve Regina (which we sing), but not the Apostles' Creed or the ending Oremus prayer. We are working to continue to learn them. However, spontaneously, last night, my husband started the Credo chant we sing in Mass, when we were beginning our Latin Rosary.  I don't think he even consciously meant to, but we all happily continued to sing the Credo (the Nicene Creed version) and it was so beautiful, because we began and ended our Rosary in Latin singing.

So it got me wondering...

Why can't we just sing the Credo we have learned in Mass on the nights we do our Rosary in Latin? I understand the importance of memorizing the Apostles' Creed, too, but is it strictly necessary to use only the Apostles' Creed, instead of the Nicene Creed, to begin the Rosary?  Is there any teaching on this, or is this in the realm of prudential judgement for each family?
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Kaesekopf on May 14, 2017, 03:11:25 PM
It's permissible.  The beginning of the rosary varies, and the Creed is not an integral part of it.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Jayne on May 14, 2017, 03:29:19 PM
I never knew that.  Thanks for asking the question, Zelie.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: MundaCorMeum on May 14, 2017, 04:14:37 PM
I love the idea of singing the Salve Regina after the Rosary!  Beautiful  :). I've been wanting to incorporate more hymns into our prayer life, and this just seems like such a natural fit.  Thank you for the idea.  Mother's Day being the perfect day to implement it  ;)
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Kaesekopf on May 14, 2017, 04:23:20 PM
As a followup question, why pray private prayer in Latin regularly?

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Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Jayne on May 14, 2017, 04:50:34 PM
I do a lot of personal and family prayers in Latin.  I find it a good way to become more familiar and comfortable with the language of the Church.  With rote prayers, like those of the Rosary, it makes no difference to how well we understand it.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Heinrich on May 14, 2017, 05:04:53 PM
That is a great question. Glad you asked it. If I may, since this popped into me head today, ask: When is a Rosary officially complete? We pray the "Hail, Holy Queen," "O God, whose only begotten Son . . .     . , " "St. Michael Prayer, "Souls of the Faithful departed," and then the indulgence prayers for the Pope. Among these, which are necessary to confect a legitimate Rosary?

Also, to the OP, here is another variation you and your impressive family can pray as well:

Das Apostolische Glaubensbekenntnis

Ich glaube an Gott, den Vater, den Allmächtigen, den Schöpfer des Himmels und der Erde, / und an Jesus Christus, seinen eingeborenen Sohn, unsern Herrn, / empfangen durch den Heiligen Geist, geboren von der Jungfrau Maria, / gelitten unter Pontius Pilatus, gekreuzigt, gestorben und begraben, / hinabgestiegen in das Reich des Todes, am dritten Tage auferstanden von den Toten, / aufgefahren in den Himmel; er sitzt zur Rechten Gottes, des allmächtigen Vaters; / von dort wird er kommen, zu richten die Lebenden und die Toten. / Ich glaube an den Heiligen Geist, / die heilige katholische Kirche, Gemeinschaft der Heiligen, / Vergebung der Sünden, / Auferstehung der Toten / und das ewige Leben. / Amen.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: MundaCorMeum on May 14, 2017, 05:06:47 PM
Most of our family's private prayer is in English - as is my own personal, private prayer, .  The Rosary we alternate....one decade in English, one in Latin.  It helps us learn the prayers in Latin.  The kids are in a homeschool choral group, and they learn both English and Latin hymns, so they practice both.  I like that, because then they are familiar with what the choir is singing at Mass, and it helps them want to pay attention more.  However, we don't do hymns specifically during our formal, scheduled M family prayer times.  I would like to start doing it, though.  I don't see why it would be wrong to incorporate Latin prayers in private prayer....maybe I'm missing something? 
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Jayne on May 14, 2017, 05:22:23 PM
How could there be anything wrong with saying prayers in Latin?  It is the language of the Church.  It is not like one is learning prayers in random languages with no religious significance, as Heinrich suggests.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Kaesekopf on May 14, 2017, 05:28:38 PM
How could there be anything wrong with saying prayers in Latin?  It is the language of the Church.  It is not like one is learning prayers in random languages with no religious significance, as Heinrich suggests.

I'm not saying it's wrong.  I'm asking why one would do it. 

To my mind, personal/private prayer is best done in the vernacular/mother tongue.  Hence, I'm asking why others would use non-native tongues.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Heinrich on May 14, 2017, 05:47:02 PM
How could there be anything wrong with saying prayers in Latin?  It is the language of the Church.  It is not like one is learning prayers in random languages with no religious significance, as Heinrich suggests.

I'm not saying it's wrong.  I'm asking why one would do it. 

To my mind, personal/private prayer is best done in the vernacular/mother tongue.  Hence, I'm asking why others would use non-native tongues.

Would you not pray the Rosary in German here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Frauenkirche?

ETA: For those who don't know, that is the Cathedral of our Lady in Munich, Germany. The Seat of the Archdiocese of Munich.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Lynne on May 14, 2017, 06:44:59 PM
How could there be anything wrong with saying prayers in Latin?  It is the language of the Church.  It is not like one is learning prayers in random languages with no religious significance, as Heinrich suggests.

One time I went to an early morning SSPX Low Mass. At the end of the Mass, the priest began praying the 3 Hail Marys but they were in Latin! Fortunately, we all caught on pretty quickly and prayed our responses in Latin too.  ::)
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Jayne on May 14, 2017, 07:42:30 PM
To my mind, personal/private prayer is best done in the vernacular/mother tongue.  Hence, I'm asking why others would use non-native tongues.

I have the impression that it is fairly common among Catholic homeschoolers (especially those learning Latin) to do at least some of the family prayers in Latin.  Such families tend to be very conscious of helping their children to learn.  Using the Latin in prayers gives a focus to their Latin studies and reinforces what they have learned.
 
Latin is not, however, just any non-native tongue. It is one with special significance for all Catholics.  It is not at all like Heinrich's example of praying in German.

I very well might pray in German if I were a visiting a German church, but there is no good reason for me to use it when praying by myself.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: MundaCorMeum on May 14, 2017, 08:07:37 PM
How could there be anything wrong with saying prayers in Latin?  It is the language of the Church.  It is not like one is learning prayers in random languages with no religious significance, as Heinrich suggests.

I'm not saying it's wrong.  I'm asking why one would do it. 

To my mind, personal/private prayer is best done in the vernacular/mother tongue.  Hence, I'm asking why others would use non-native tongues.

Being a Catholic, Latin should be (to me, at least) somewhat of a "native tongue".  Atleast in a certain sense, since it is the official language of Holy Mother Church.  It's important to me that my children, as well as myself, be familiar with Latin, even though we will likely never be fluent or expert.  My husband studied it in high school, and is still fairly good at it, so it's fun to discuss it with him as we learn.  Studying Latin also helps in other areas of academics, so that's another reason to learn it; prayers are good practice.

Random, completely unnecessary side note: my oldest will be studying French this summer, because it's a large part of my husband's and my cultural heritage.  I hope we learn the basic prayers in French, too  :)
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: jmjZelie on May 14, 2017, 09:03:52 PM
As a followup question, why pray private prayer in Latin regularly?

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Because it is the language of the Catholic Church?

In my studies, I have come across suggestions to regularly pray prayers at home in Latin, and to learn the Latin in the missal, and to teach one's children if one is a parent.

Also, as a homeschool family we are required to teach foreign language. French and Spanish and English all have roots in Latin. So we are learning liturgical and Classical Latin and we are planning to also learn Spanish. All together as a family.

Plus understanding Latin helps to understand English better
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Bonaventure on May 14, 2017, 09:34:17 PM
For all those saying "it's the language of the Church," when you recite these prayers in Latin, is it simply rote memory? Or do you actually understand the grammar, syntax, conjugation etc of the language?
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: jmjZelie on May 14, 2017, 09:37:35 PM
How could there be anything wrong with saying prayers in Latin?  It is the language of the Church.  It is not like one is learning prayers in random languages with no religious significance, as Heinrich suggests.

I'm not saying it's wrong.  I'm asking why one would do it. 

To my mind, personal/private prayer is best done in the vernacular/mother tongue.  Hence, I'm asking why others would use non-native tongues.

Would you not pray the Rosary in German here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Frauenkirche?

ETA: For those who don't know, that is the Cathedral of our Lady in Munich, Germany. The Seat of the Archdiocese of Munich.

That is a beautiful Cathedral. If I was ever so lucky to travel to Germany, the I suppose I would want to try to learn enough German to be able to pray with my fellow Catholics. I don't speak much German. I have forgotten most of what I did learn back in middle school. But I do like to learn and understand other tongues as far as I am able.

Thanks for sharing the pic!
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Kaesekopf on May 14, 2017, 09:41:58 PM
I have the impression that it is fairly common among Catholic homeschoolers (especially those learning Latin) to do at least some of the family prayers in Latin.  Such families tend to be very conscious of helping their children to learn.  Using the Latin in prayers gives a focus to their Latin studies and reinforces what they have learned.
 
Latin is not, however, just any non-native tongue. It is one with special significance for all Catholics.  It is not at all like Heinrich's example of praying in German.

I very well might pray in German if I were a visiting a German church, but there is no good reason for me to use it when praying by myself.

Good for Catholic homeschoolers, I guess.

IF the homeschoolers are studying Latin and mastering it, that's one thing.  If, however, the extent of Latin goes to rote memorization, then I argue that's not how you should be 'doing' personal or private prayer.  Prayer time is not 'reinforce study time', prayer time is not 'buffer your skills' time, it's time to pray and commune with Our Lord.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: jmjZelie on May 14, 2017, 09:43:24 PM
For all those saying "it's the language of the Church," when you recite these prayers in Latin, is it simply rote memory? Or do you actually understand the grammar, syntax, conjugation etc of the language?

Yes we are studying all those things too. But slowly. Because I am doing my best to learn so I can teach. So we learn first how to say it, along with the English meaning of each word. Then we go back and learn about the forms of the words used and the order of the words in phrases.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: jmjZelie on May 14, 2017, 09:54:55 PM
I have the impression that it is fairly common among Catholic homeschoolers (especially those learning Latin) to do at least some of the family prayers in Latin.  Such families tend to be very conscious of helping their children to learn.  Using the Latin in prayers gives a focus to their Latin studies and reinforces what they have learned.
 
Latin is not, however, just any non-native tongue. It is one with special significance for all Catholics.  It is not at all like Heinrich's example of praying in German.

I very well might pray in German if I were a visiting a German church, but there is no good reason for me to use it when praying by myself.

Good for Catholic homeschoolers, I guess.

IF the homeschoolers are studying Latin and mastering it, that's one thing.  If, however, the extent of Latin goes to rote memorization, then I argue that's not how you should be 'doing' personal or private prayer.  Prayer time is not 'reinforce study time', prayer time is not 'buffer your skills' time, it's time to pray and commune with Our Lord.

Wait. I am confused. Isn't this forum named in Latin? Isn't the Tridentine Mass in Latin?

Isn't learning Latin encouraged and considered a good thing to do?

Because it seems like some responses here would suggest that it is a poor use of time and a wrong choice for prayer. I am very confused by this.

I also have the Latin Vulgate Holy Bible, so that I can read the official Bible of the Catholic Church. Is that wrong too? Is reading the Latin readings and comparing it side by side with the English translations in the readings of the Mass, so that we can learn more a bad thing?

I don't know...

My kids and husband and I love learning Latin and we are very thankful we were encouraged to learn it. I love to hear my children sing the beautiful Latin hymns. I love to be able to understand a little more every week and notice phrases from the Bible in Gregorian chant music on Pandora. It lifts my heart. My children are enthusiastic about it. They look so excited when they realize they understand another phrase or prayer at Mass. I don't see why there should be a problem with any of that.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: MundaCorMeum on May 14, 2017, 09:56:20 PM
For all those saying "it's the language of the Church," when you recite these prayers in Latin, is it simply rote memory? Or do you actually understand the grammar, syntax, conjugation etc of the language?

My toddler doesn't understand grammar, syntax, conjugation, etc....when praying with us in English.  Should I make him stop until he does?  Memorization before understanding is not necessarily a bad thing.  We are taking Latin next year with our co-op group, so I'm hoping to go deeper with the kids as they get older.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Kaesekopf on May 14, 2017, 09:57:10 PM
No one is critiquing the learning of Latin.  Shoot, reading isn't that hard.

My complaint is the use of a foreign language in one's private/personal prayers and devotions. 

If y'all can't read that, how do you expect to internalize prayer in Latin?

:lol:
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: jmjZelie on May 14, 2017, 09:58:15 PM
I guess I am sorry that I asked the question. I didn't realize that this was a contentious issue. My family and I were merely trying to do what we understood to be normal. As converts, that is all we can do. This will be my last post in this thread. Have a good week.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: MundaCorMeum on May 14, 2017, 10:01:06 PM
No one is critiquing the learning of Latin.  Shoot, reading isn't that hard.

My complaint is the use of a foreign language in one's private/personal prayers and devotions. 

If y'all can't read that, how do you expect to internalize prayer in Latin?

:lol:

Is there a church​ teaching against it?  I'm not sure why others personal prayer habits have any effect on you.  How do you know we don't internalize Latin prayers?  I know what the words mean, and I've read that Latin prayers are more powerful.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Kaesekopf on May 14, 2017, 10:03:47 PM
I guess I am sorry that I asked the question. I didn't realize that this was a contentious issue. My family and I were merely trying to do what we understood to be normal. As converts, that is all we can do. This will be my last post in this thread. Have a good week.

You asked a question, got responses, people can't understand those responses, so you decide to stop posting in this thread?

It's a discussion forum. 

 ::)

How do you people get on in secular society?
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Bonaventure on May 14, 2017, 10:05:28 PM
For all those saying "it's the language of the Church," when you recite these prayers in Latin, is it simply rote memory? Or do you actually understand the grammar, syntax, conjugation etc of the language?

My toddler doesn't understand grammar, syntax, conjugation, etc....when praying with us in English.  Should I make him stop until he does?  Memorization before understanding is not necessarily a bad thing.  We are taking Latin next year with our co-op group, so I'm hoping to go deeper with the kids as they get older.

So I can be clear, I am specifically referring to gown folks....the only people posting on this thread.

Of course children don't have a grasp over how any language works....
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Kaesekopf on May 14, 2017, 10:06:58 PM
Is there a church​ teaching against it?  I'm not sure why others personal prayer habits have any effect on you.  How do you know we don't internalize Latin prayers?  I know what the words mean, and I've read that Latin prayers are more powerful.

It doesn't have an effect on me.  I'm asking an honest question, why would you pray in a foreign tongue?

Why do people take things so personally on a discussion forum? 
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Jayne on May 14, 2017, 10:17:13 PM
IF the homeschoolers are studying Latin and mastering it, that's one thing.  If, however, the extent of Latin goes to rote memorization, then I argue that's not how you should be 'doing' personal or private prayer.  Prayer time is not 'reinforce study time', prayer time is not 'buffer your skills' time, it's time to pray and commune with Our Lord.

When I pray the Rosary in English, I am not thinking much about the meaning of the words, but about the mysteries of the Rosary.  It is the same in Latin.

One studies Latin in the first place in order to be able to pray in Latin.  So, of course, praying reinforces the studying.

You are coming across as if you are discouraging the use of Latin in prayer.  I can think of no Church teaching which takes such a position.

Veterum Sapientia captures the Church's attitude to Latin:
Quote
Venerable languages

The Church has ever held the literary evidences of this wisdom in the highest esteem. She values especially the Greek and Latin languages in which wisdom itself is cloaked, as it were, in a vesture of gold. She has likewise welcomed the use of other venerable languages, which flourished in the East. For these too have had no little influence on the progress of humanity and civilization. By their use in sacred liturgies and in versions of Holy Scripture, they have remained in force in certain regions even to the present day, bearing constant witness to the living voice of antiquity.

A primary place

But amid this variety of languages a primary place must surely be given to that language which had its origins in Latium, and later proved so admirable a means for the spreading of Christianity throughout the West.

And since in God's special Providence this language united so many nations together under the authority of the Roman Empire -- and that for so many centuries -- it also became the rightful language of the Apostolic See.3 Preserved for posterity, it proved to be a bond of unity for the Christian peoples of Europe.

The nature of Latin

Of its very nature Latin is most suitable for promoting every form of culture among peoples. It gives rise to no jealousies. It does not favor any one nation, but presents itself with equal impartiality to all and is equally acceptable to all.

Nor must we overlook the characteristic nobility of Latin for mal structure. Its "concise, varied and harmonious style, full of majesty and dignity"4 makes for singular clarity and impressiveness of expression.

Preservation of Latin by the Holy See

For these reasons the Apostolic See has always been at pains to preserve Latin, deeming it worthy of being used in the exercise of her teaching authority "as the splendid vesture of her heavenly doctrine and sacred laws."5 She further requires her sacred ministers to use it, for by so doing they are the better able, wherever they may be, to acquaint themselves with the mind of the Holy See on any matter, and communicate the more easily with Rome and with one another.

Thus the "knowledge and use of this language," so intimately bound up with the Church's life, "is important not so much on cultural or literary grounds, as for religious reasons."6 These are the words of Our Predecessor Pius XI, who conducted a scientific inquiry into this whole subject, and indicated three qualities of the Latin language which harmonize to a remarkable degree with the Church's nature. "For the Church, precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure to the end of time ... of its very nature requires a language which is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular."7
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/John23/j23veterum.htm (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/John23/j23veterum.htm)
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Jayne on May 14, 2017, 10:19:02 PM
For all those saying "it's the language of the Church," when you recite these prayers in Latin, is it simply rote memory? Or do you actually understand the grammar, syntax, conjugation etc of the language?

Yes, I understand all these things.  I can parse every word of every prayer in the Rosary. 

I suspect that a lot of people who pray in English do not have this level of knowledge of grammar.  It has nothing to do with the sincerity or value of the prayer.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: MundaCorMeum on May 14, 2017, 10:21:28 PM
Is there a church​ teaching against it?  I'm not sure why others personal prayer habits have any effect on you.  How do you know we don't internalize Latin prayers?  I know what the words mean, and I've read that Latin prayers are more powerful.

It doesn't have an effect on me.  I'm asking an honest question, why would you pray in a foreign tongue?

Why do people take things so personally on a discussion forum?

We gave you our answers, and you kept pressing the issue.  If you feel differently, that's fine.  It is, afterall, like you said, a discussion forum.  No one is saying you have to pray in Latin.  But, if there's no objective right or wrong on the issue, you shouldn't make people feel like they are doing something wrong or that they are stupid, which is kind of the impression I got from your responses; nor should you laugh at them.  I apologize in advance if I misunderstood your angle....sometimes it's hard to tell tone on a forum....you just seem very "naysayer".

Like I said....I don't personally see it as strictly a foreign tongue.  As a Catholic, I see it somewhat as my "native language", so I feel drawn to learn it better.  Memorizing prayers that I already know the meaning of is a good start to learning the official language of our religion, in my opinion.  I've also read before that Latin prayers are very powerful.  That doesn't mean Catholics have to pray in Latin always.  But, I like to sometimes. And, I like teaching my children the same.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: MundaCorMeum on May 14, 2017, 10:24:54 PM
For all those saying "it's the language of the Church," when you recite these prayers in Latin, is it simply rote memory? Or do you actually understand the grammar, syntax, conjugation etc of the language?

My toddler doesn't understand grammar, syntax, conjugation, etc....when praying with us in English.  Should I make him stop until he does?  Memorization before understanding is not necessarily a bad thing.  We are taking Latin next year with our co-op group, so I'm hoping to go deeper with the kids as they get older.

So I can be clear, I am specifically referring to gown folks....the only people posting on this thread.

Of course children don't have a grasp over how any language works....

I think this would put me in a rock and a hard place.  I can't use Latin words until I fully understand the grammar, syntax, etc?  So, how do I learn grammar and all without having some knowledge of words, phrases, punctuation, etc?  There's going to be some overlap of memorization and understanding. 

As far as the prayers I pray at home, yes, I do understand the words I'm saying, even if I don't understand the nuts and bolts of Latin grammar.  It's not complete rote memorization or oblivious mumbling of sounds that I'm simply repeating.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Matamoros on May 14, 2017, 10:25:15 PM
Why pray in Latin? Until recently the Church required priests and religious, even those not well trained in Latin, to pray in Latin, so that the universal Church prayed with one voice, as it were. However I believe (though I may be mistaken) that the laity have always been allowed to say the rosary and other extra-liturgical devotions in the vernacular. Perhaps as a convert, jmjzelie is not aware that this was quite normal even in the past. Nevertheless, if she and others want to unite their voices more closely to that of the Church by praying in its universal language, I can't see any reason why they shouldn't. If they know their rosary in English, then they know what they are saying in Latin. Being able to parse every word really isn't necessary.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Jayne on May 14, 2017, 10:27:44 PM
Is there a church​ teaching against it?  I'm not sure why others personal prayer habits have any effect on you.  How do you know we don't internalize Latin prayers?  I know what the words mean, and I've read that Latin prayers are more powerful.

It doesn't have an effect on me.  I'm asking an honest question, why would you pray in a foreign tongue?

Why do people take things so personally on a discussion forum?

You are not just "asking an honest question".  You were explicitly expressing disapproval. You were putting people on the defensive.  You were mocking someone because she was dismayed at having her request for information get turned into a debate. Your comments in this thread were full of personal remarks.

How about showing some appreciation toward non-confrontational people? It is actually a desirable characteristic.  Would you really want a forum full of people like me?  What's the matter with you?

Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Pheo on May 14, 2017, 10:31:28 PM
I'll take the opposite position and say that we should be able to pray in Latin.  Even NOers talk about it being a good idea to have a common language to pray in during pilgrimages etc.

Part of the push-back may be the prevalence of unilingualism among Anglophones.  A good chunk of the non-English world speaks more than one language, so maybe it's easier for them to flip back and forth without it feeling forced or put-on (incidentally, the US is second only to Australia for the lowest percentage of bilingual citizens).  Just guessing here.  I learned French in school and didn't find Latin very difficult to figure out, especially for simple prayers like those in the Rosary.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Jayne on May 14, 2017, 10:34:21 PM
I guess I am sorry that I asked the question. I didn't realize that this was a contentious issue. My family and I were merely trying to do what we understood to be normal. As converts, that is all we can do. This will be my last post in this thread. Have a good week.

You are not doing anything wrong and this is not normally a contentious issue. 

Also, it is perfectly reasonable to drop out of a thread when it takes on a tone you are not comfortable with.  KK is not behaving well but you should not let it discourage you.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: jmjZelie on May 14, 2017, 10:59:05 PM
I guess I am sorry that I asked the question. I didn't realize that this was a contentious issue. My family and I were merely trying to do what we understood to be normal. As converts, that is all we can do. This will be my last post in this thread. Have a good week.

You asked a question, got responses, people can't understand those responses, so you decide to stop posting in this thread?

It's a discussion forum. 

 ::)

How do you people get on in secular society?

Since I have realized now that the voice of opposition seems to be yours alone, and that it was not wrong of me to pose the question that I did, I will respond to your post directly.

First, I don't owe responses to anyone, even in a thread I started on a discussion forum. It is a place of free association, after all.

Second, if someone starts having a go at me with questioning and insisting upon me defending my personal habits in face to face interactions, I say that I will not continue the discussion unless it be civil, and I walk away if necessary.

So my choice to step back from discussions on anonymous forums would be consistent with that. If that is disagreeable to you, so be it. I do not try to offend with my behavior but I do recognize that I will never be everyone's cup of tea.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: jmjZelie on May 14, 2017, 11:01:38 PM
Why pray in Latin? Until recently the Church required priests and religious, even those not well trained in Latin, to pray in Latin, so that the universal Church prayed with one voice, as it were. However I believe (though I may be mistaken) that the laity have always been allowed to say the rosary and other extra-liturgical devotions in the vernacular. Perhaps as a convert, jmjzelie is not aware that this was quite normal even in the past. Nevertheless, if she and others want to unite their voices more closely to that of the Church by praying in its universal language, I can't see any reason why they shouldn't. If they know their rosary in English, then they know what they are saying in Latin. Being able to parse every word really isn't necessary.

This is a very helpful post! Thank you for explaining this. We actually are greatly enjoying learning Latin, both with our curriculum and with our prayers. I realized it was not strictly necessary but it has already been so good for us that we plan to continue for...well...forever. 😀
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Matamoros on May 14, 2017, 11:14:31 PM
Why pray in Latin? Until recently the Church required priests and religious, even those not well trained in Latin, to pray in Latin, so that the universal Church prayed with one voice, as it were. However I believe (though I may be mistaken) that the laity have always been allowed to say the rosary and other extra-liturgical devotions in the vernacular. Perhaps as a convert, jmjzelie is not aware that this was quite normal even in the past. Nevertheless, if she and others want to unite their voices more closely to that of the Church by praying in its universal language, I can't see any reason why they shouldn't. If they know their rosary in English, then they know what they are saying in Latin. Being able to parse every word really isn't necessary.

This is a very helpful post! Thank you for explaining this. We actually are greatly enjoying learning Latin, both with our curriculum and with our prayers. I realized it was not strictly necessary but it has already been so good for us that we plan to continue for...well...forever. 😀

I'm pleased to have been of service. I also have a great love of the Latin language.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Kaesekopf on May 14, 2017, 11:25:48 PM
Is there a church​ teaching against it?  I'm not sure why others personal prayer habits have any effect on you.  How do you know we don't internalize Latin prayers?  I know what the words mean, and I've read that Latin prayers are more powerful.

It doesn't have an effect on me.  I'm asking an honest question, why would you pray in a foreign tongue?

Why do people take things so personally on a discussion forum?

You are not just "asking an honest question".  You were explicitly expressing disapproval. You were putting people on the defensive.  You were mocking someone because she was dismayed at having her request for information get turned into a debate. Your comments in this thread were full of personal remarks.

How about showing some appreciation toward non-confrontational people? It is actually a desirable characteristic.  Would you really want a forum full of people like me?  What's the matter with you?

No, Jayne, I was asking an honest question.  You can see my first few responses.  I don't think I was more aggressive than any replies.  (Isn't it rather obvious Latin is the language of the Church?  C'mon).

As to my mocking - it's not exactly a rare sentiment to see here at this forum - "Oh, no, someone said something mean.  I'm GONE!"  If you're allowed to chastise my posting habits, I think it's only fair that I can comment on a troubling sensitivity I see on the forum.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Gardener on May 15, 2017, 01:05:10 AM
Why pray in Latin?

Patrimony, palpable extension to the past (pre-Reformation) in a manner which is exactly the same as ALL our ancestors (well, those of us with a European lineage) would have prayed at least at times, a sanctified manner of prayer (that is, set aside for a special purpose), to grow in greater admiration of the truth that "[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings." [Rom] -- in other words, sometimes it helps to pray in a manner which  forces concentration on the prayer rather than our own thoughts; it helps to remember that our prayers do not depend on us in some sense.

It's the same reason "Messianic Christians" and Jews pray in Hebrew (not even using it day to day in the 1st century, it having been replaced by Aramaic), Orthodox pray in Greek, and Muslims pray in Arabic. There's something about an original language going back to the early days of a religion -- even if, in this case, it was the language of the empire it overthrew through patience. To use a Hebrew example, there's simply something mysterious about saying, "Shema, Israel, Adonai Eloheinu..." "Hear, Israel The Lord is Our God" just doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi. There's something really cool about hearing the Our Father in Aramaic because it's highly likely that would have been the language in which Christ gave it to the Apostles rather than Hebrew:


It has a poetic element to it. Rhythmic and rhyming -- similar to the Arabic poetry I've heard. You simply don't get that in the received English translation, and in many ways not in the Latin (but you do get it in the prayers originally written in Latin).



Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Jayne on May 15, 2017, 01:36:33 AM
No, Jayne, I was asking an honest question.  You can see my first few responses.  I don't think I was more aggressive than any replies.  (Isn't it rather obvious Latin is the language of the Church?  C'mon).

In post #4 you asked a question: "why pray private prayer in Latin regularly?"

You received two answers.

Then in post #9 you said: "To my mind, personal/private prayer is best done in the vernacular/mother tongue.  Hence, I'm asking why others would use non-native tongues."

That is not just a question.  That is an assertion that vernacular is best for personal prayers, which carries an implication that those who pray in Latin are choosing a sub-optimal practice.  This is a challenge to defend it, not a simple request for information.  Of course, you are picking up some defensiveness after you say something like that.  It is not people being aggressive, but the natural response to your comment.

Also, even though we are discussing praying in Latin, you keep referring using terms like "non-native tongues" "foreign language" "foreign tongue".  Nobody is proposing that it is good to pray in foreign languages for the sake of praying in foreign languages (except possibly Heinrich - it is not clear what his point was).  We are specifically talking about praying in the language of the Church. People keep stressing this point because you seem to be missing it.
 
For most of us, it is not only obvious that Latin is the language of the Church, but that it is good to pray in the language of the Church.  This is not something that should need defending.  Your opinion that it is best to pray in the vernacular is the one that needs support.  Where does this idea appear in Church teaching?

Quote from: Kaesekopf
As to my mocking - it's not exactly a rare sentiment to see here at this forum - "Oh, no, someone said something mean.  I'm GONE!"  If you're allowed to chastise my posting habits, I think it's only fair that I can comment on a troubling sensitivity I see on the forum.

There is a huge difference between leaving the forum because "someone said something mean" and dropping out of a specific thread that takes a nasty turn.  Avoiding specific threads, topics, or posters is exactly what most people need to do in order to cope with forums.  That is not "troubling sensitivity."  That is how to retain one's sanity.

Many people around here need to learn how to recognize when to walk away from a thread.  Instead of mocking a person who was doing it right, you should have pointed her out as a good example.

If you have a problem with me "chastising your posting habits" that's legit.  Fraternal correction should normally be done privately.  My tone was probably all wrong too because I was posting in anger.  I'm sorry.  You can make a case that I earned some mocking or snark.  But I don't see that there is anyone else that you should be mean to in this thread.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Lynne on May 15, 2017, 07:26:26 AM
after reading other responses in this thread, I decided to remove mine.

Thank you Jayne, Gardener and  Matamoros.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: MundaCorMeum on May 15, 2017, 07:40:06 AM
Is there a church​ teaching against it?  I'm not sure why others personal prayer habits have any effect on you.  How do you know we don't internalize Latin prayers?  I know what the words mean, and I've read that Latin prayers are more powerful.

It doesn't have an effect on me.  I'm asking an honest question, why would you pray in a foreign tongue?

Why do people take things so personally on a discussion forum?

You are not just "asking an honest question".  You were explicitly expressing disapproval. You were putting people on the defensive.  You were mocking someone because she was dismayed at having her request for information get turned into a debate. Your comments in this thread were full of personal remarks.

How about showing some appreciation toward non-confrontational people? It is actually a desirable characteristic.  Would you really want a forum full of people like me?  What's the matter with you?

No, Jayne, I was asking an honest question.  You can see my first few responses.  I don't think I was more aggressive than any replies.  (Isn't it rather obvious Latin is the language of the Church?  C'mon).

As to my mocking - it's not exactly a rare sentiment to see here at this forum - "Oh, no, someone said something mean.  I'm GONE!"  If you're allowed to chastise my posting habits, I think it's only fair that I can comment on a troubling sensitivity I see on the forum.

Why you felt the need to mock and speak uncharitably in the first place is beyond me.  When I first asked why it was wrong, I wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers.  I vaguely remembered you mentioning before that you didn't think it was a good thing.  Again, there's no objective right or wrong, so we are all free to choose which language we pray in.  You are not free, however, to treat us with disdain simply because we choose not pray in the language you see as most fit.  Even after giving you several answers as to 1) why we pray in Latin and 2) why we don't see it as a foreign language, you kept asking why we choose to pray in a foreign togue.  I don't know why you chose to ignore our answers.  A couple others have come in and added some really good points, too.  You don't like to pray in Latin....got it.  That's perfectly fine. Your opinion is duly noted.  If there are reasons why you think it's not a good thing, or some Saint quotes supporting your opninion, maybe you could share those, instead of telling us about how poorly we must get on in society, and insinuating that we have poor comprehension skills.  As the owner of this forum, I would expect you to hold yourself to a higher standard when it comes to posting with charity, especially when it comes to things that are a matter of preference and not dogma....of course, that is just my own personal opinion. Jmj is not only a relatively new poster here, but also a relatively new convert to The Faith.  We should be welcoming her as one of our own, and guiding and helping her figure out the ins and outs of Catholicism.  Not making her feel like an idiot. I'm sure that wasn't your intention, but I'm betting that's what some of your comments did, because that's how it came across to me.  If praying in Latin is wrong or not as good as vernacular, then please kindly tell us why, rather than just saying it doesn't make any sense to you.

Also, please note that my tone here is not at all intended to be aggressive.  I'm just beng transparent with you, so you can have a better understanding of why we got frustrated in the first place.  It's meant to help you, not aggravate you  :)
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Matto on May 15, 2017, 02:04:35 PM
When I first became a traditional Catholic I learned prayers in Latin. I wrote down lots of prayers in Latin and tried to memorize some of them which I thought were beautiful without even knowing what the words meant in English, like the Ave Maris Stella. And I prayed the Rosary in Latin. It seemed natural because Latin is the sacred language of the Church so it made sense to use it in prayer. When I went to my first SSPX Mass I was very surprised that when they prayed the Rosary before Mass it was in English and not in Latin. But now I pray the Rosary in English and not in Latin and I have even forgotten how to say the Credo in Latin. I don't remember why I stopped praying privately in Latin and started to pray in English.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Chestertonian on May 15, 2017, 02:58:24 PM
Why pray in Latin?

Patrimony, palpable extension to the past (pre-Reformation) in a manner which is exactly the same as ALL our ancestors (well, those of us with a European lineage) would have prayed at least at times, a sanctified manner of prayer (that is, set aside for a special purpose), to grow in greater admiration of the truth that "[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings." [Rom] -- in other words, sometimes it helps to pray in a manner which  forces concentration on the prayer rather than our own thoughts; it helps to remember that our prayers do not depend on us in some sense.

It's the same reason "Messianic Christians" and Jews pray in Hebrew (not even using it day to day in the 1st century, it having been replaced by Aramaic), Orthodox pray in Greek, and Muslims pray in Arabic. There's something about an original language going back to the early days of a religion -- even if, in this case, it was the language of the empire it overthrew through patience. To use a Hebrew example, there's simply something mysterious about saying, "Shema, Israel, Adonai Eloheinu..." "Hear, Israel The Lord is Our God" just doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi. There's something really cool about hearing the Our Father in Aramaic because it's highly likely that would have been the language in which Christ gave it to the Apostles rather than Hebrew:


It has a poetic element to it. Rhythmic and rhyming -- similar to the Arabic poetry I've heard. You simply don't get that in the received English translation, and in many ways not in the Latin (but you do get it in the prayers originally written in Latin).
if people want to pray family prayers in Latin, and they find it to be a benefit and not a hindrance to their prayer life,good for them

for me, at the point where I am right now it would be a hindrance to do prayers at home in Latin. 

One key difference between Jews and Catholics is that the study of the hebrew language is a common element of Jewish learning for children.  while this might not have always been the case in all times, generally speaking Jewish boys and girls all receive instruction in Hebrew so that they can pray in Hebrew, as well as understand Hebrew prayers and readings during shul.  This isn't a special add on to Jewish religious element, but a crucial aspect of it

Latin is the language of the Church, but instruction in Latin is far from universal.  Most children do not learn it in school.  I don't think there was ever a time in history where learning Latin was available to everyone.  There might be some traditional catholic parishes here and there that offer it to their parishioners but I'd consider that the exception and not the rule.  While it might be part of our patrimony, you have to seek it out if you want to learn it and it isn't usually taught as part of a catechism program, from what seen
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Lynne on May 15, 2017, 03:28:39 PM
Why pray in Latin?

Patrimony, palpable extension to the past (pre-Reformation) in a manner which is exactly the same as ALL our ancestors (well, those of us with a European lineage) would have prayed at least at times, a sanctified manner of prayer (that is, set aside for a special purpose), to grow in greater admiration of the truth that "[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings." [Rom] -- in other words, sometimes it helps to pray in a manner which  forces concentration on the prayer rather than our own thoughts; it helps to remember that our prayers do not depend on us in some sense.

It's the same reason "Messianic Christians" and Jews pray in Hebrew (not even using it day to day in the 1st century, it having been replaced by Aramaic), Orthodox pray in Greek, and Muslims pray in Arabic. There's something about an original language going back to the early days of a religion -- even if, in this case, it was the language of the empire it overthrew through patience. To use a Hebrew example, there's simply something mysterious about saying, "Shema, Israel, Adonai Eloheinu..." "Hear, Israel The Lord is Our God" just doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi. There's something really cool about hearing the Our Father in Aramaic because it's highly likely that would have been the language in which Christ gave it to the Apostles rather than Hebrew:


It has a poetic element to it. Rhythmic and rhyming -- similar to the Arabic poetry I've heard. You simply don't get that in the received English translation, and in many ways not in the Latin (but you do get it in the prayers originally written in Latin).

Latin is the language of the Church, but instruction in Latin is far from universal.  Most children do not learn it in school.  I don't think there was ever a time in history where learning Latin was available to everyone.  There might be some traditional catholic parishes here and there that offer it to their parishioners but I'd consider that the exception and not the rule.  While it might be part of our patrimony, you have to seek it out if you want to learn it and it isn't usually taught as part of a catechism program, from what seen

It was routinely taught in Catholic high schools, dropped from the curriculum 30 - 40 years ago and is being added back...
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: aquinas138 on May 15, 2017, 10:58:26 PM


I'm curious how close this would have been to the original; nailing down Christ's dialect isn't as easy as some think. I'm used to the Syriac versions, but it's fairly similar and quite intelligible, but obviously without certain Syriac peculiarities, e.g., they say yitqadesh instead of Syriac netqadash. I'm curious about why they omit the doxology; it is in the Peshitta and in universal use among Syriac Christians. I wonder if this is a back-translation from Greek?
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Gardener on May 15, 2017, 11:20:20 PM
Unsure. As far as pronunciation, that's true, but certainly closer than say, "Our Father..." :)
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Jon Paul on May 17, 2017, 10:04:44 AM
When is a Rosary officially complete? [...] Among these, which are necessary to confect a legitimate Rosary?

The rosary begins with the first of 15 Our Fathers, and ends with the 150th Hail Mary.  A decade of the rosary consists of 1 Our Father and 10 Hail Marys whilst meditating upon one of the 15 mysteries in the lives of Jesus and Mary.

Everything else is window dressing.  The Glory be, the Creed, the Salve, the Holy Michael prayer, etc., are all pious customs and traditions that grew up through the centuries.
Title: Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
Post by: Jon Paul on May 17, 2017, 10:16:18 AM
IF the homeschoolers are studying Latin and mastering it, that's one thing.  If, however, the extent of Latin goes to rote memorization, then I argue that's not how you should be 'doing' personal or private prayer.  Prayer time is not 'reinforce study time', prayer time is not 'buffer your skills' time, it's time to pray and commune with Our Lord.

But there are different types of prayer.  There's vocal prayer and mental prayer, and vocal prayer itself has different levels of attention attached to it.  Whether you say "Requiem aeternam dona eis.." or "Eternal rest grant unto them..." having a general idea of what you're praying for is efficacious and salutary.  The vernacular version can only assist with a deeper subjective relating to the words and meaning, but a simple comparison of the two versions would be sufficient to know what you're praying for.  Whereas the use of the Latin form would add the further benefit of using words hallowed by centuries upon centuries of usage.

There's an added benefit to the Latin as well which is that there's no real fixed standards even within given nations with vernacular prayers.  The Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory be, the Credo, the Hail Holy Queen, and Bless us, O Lord, are generally consistent.  But how many translations of the Memorare, the Holy Michael Archangel prayer, the Regina Caeli, the Eternal rest, and the Psalms themselves exist?  I can't say the Holy Michael Archangel prayer in any American parish because its in a translation which is so jarringly different from the one I learned.  Even praying "may the souls of the faithful departed..." is slightly different for myself and what my in-laws pray.  The use of a standardized Latin, one standardized over centuries of usage, is a great aid.  And these prayers are all simple enough to understand what they mean from an understanding of the vernacular.

Just don't try to do your Spiritual Exercises of Saint Ignatius in Latin if you're not fluent!