About the flow of time in heaven

[KreKre]

I had a discussion with two friends about the afterlife, and I argued that time cannot flow the same way as it flows here on earth. We know from st. Thomas that God and the angels see all time as if it were a static image. But what about the saints, who are mere humans?

Later I did some simple math: let's say there are going to be 100 billion people at Judgement (that's a somewhat rough estimation of how many people ever lived). Let's say it takes only 1 minute per person to list all their sins (which is really conservative, I know my sins are much more numerous than that, but hopefully they won't be all listed), that means the Judgement will last at least 100 billion minutes, which is approximately 200 thousand years! Imagine sitting through all of that, it's going to get terribly exhausting hearing about other peoples sins! Especially sins of impurity, which are so common and so disgusting to hear about... Every priest will tell you that hearing confessions is an exhausting task, but this is many orders of magnitude worse. Also, it helps to bring into perspective the gravity of all this offense to God (considering that even the smallest sin is an infinite offense against God's infinite goodness and majesty). When our Lord prayed at the olive garden before He was delivered to be killed, He saw all these sins in an instant - this must have been much more painful to Him than the crucifixion.

Also, let's say there's a billion catholics alive currently. Let's say only 1 percent of them regularly pray and only say one rosary daily. That's 500 million "ora pro nobis peccatoribus" daily. That's a lot of people for whom Blessed Virgin Mary intercedes! How many lost things does St. Anthony find every day? In any case, it's an extreme workload! For God this is nothing, He is omnipotent, and for the angels this should not be a problem because they are so numerous, but the saints are mere humans and there aren't that many of them (at least not those to whom we pray daily), so again, the flow of time must be different so that the saints may be able to intercede for us.

In the previous example, the time has to flow faster, and in the later example, it has to flow slower. So the concept of time in the afterlife must be completely different than here in the mortal plane. Of course, nothing is impossible to God.

If there are any theologians who considered this matter, I'd like to read more about it.

[Santantonio]

I had a discussion with two friends about the afterlife, and I argued that time cannot flow the same way as it flows here on earth. We know from st. Thomas that God and the angels see all time as if it were a static image. But what about the saints, who are mere humans?

Later I did some simple math: let's say there are going to be 100 billion people at Judgement (that's a somewhat rough estimation of how many people ever lived). Let's say it takes only 1 minute per person to list all their sins (which is really conservative, I know my sins are much more numerous than that, but hopefully they won't be all listed), that means the Judgement will last at least 100 billion minutes, which is approximately 200 thousand years! Imagine sitting through all of that, it's going to get terribly exhausting hearing about other peoples sins! Especially sins of impurity, which are so common and so disgusting to hear about... Every priest will tell you that hearing confessions is an exhausting task, but this is many orders of magnitude worse. Also, it helps to bring into perspective the gravity of all this offense to God (considering that even the smallest sin is an infinite offense against God's infinite goodness and majesty). When our Lord prayed at the olive garden before He was delivered to be killed, He saw all these sins in an instant - this must have been much more painful to Him than the crucifixion.

Also, let's say there's a billion catholics alive currently. Let's say only 1 percent of them regularly pray and only say one rosary daily. That's 500 million "ora pro nobis peccatoribus" daily. That's a lot of people for whom Blessed Virgin Mary intercedes! How many lost things does St. Anthony find every day? In any case, it's an extreme workload! For God this is nothing, He is omnipotent, and for the angels this should not be a problem because they are so numerous, but the saints are mere humans and there aren't that many of them (at least not those to whom we pray daily), so again, the flow of time must be different so that the saints may be able to intercede for us.

In the previous example, the time has to flow faster, and in the later example, it has to flow slower. So the concept of time in the afterlife must be completely different than here in the mortal plane. Of course, nothing is impossible to God.

If there are any theologians who considered this matter, I'd like to read more about it.

the convolesence of time and eternity is referred to as aeviternity.

https://ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/FP/FP010.html#FPQ10OUTP1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aevum

"time" before creations - Augustine
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120111.htm

definitely a specialist subject one cannot pursue lightly. thankfully there are some works whose authors
dug into the bulk of books written in Latin or Greek that are not in English. Unfortunately it is considered a very academic topic.

https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/7199
https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&ref=bf_s2_a1_t1_1&qi=qBsYDOvJDFsHUi2VhUUljjxbwQo_1746398100_1:25122:46235&bq=author%3Dpasquale%2520porro%26title%3Dmedieval%2520concept%2520of%2520time%2520studies%2520on%2520the%2520scholastic%2520debate%2520and%2520its%2520reception%2520in%2520early%2520modern%2520philosophy%252075

[james03]

As for the saints, God deigns to honor His friends in Heaven by performing miracles after we pray for their intercession.  I speculate that every prayer for intercession is a cause of joy for the saint.  In a sense he is "always interceding" and always taking part in the joy of people who obtain a miracle.

As far as the original question, there is no time in heaven.  You are, viewing what you are ordered towards, the Beatific vision.  The temporal view of heaven I've labled "Never Ending Summer Block Party Heaven", a less carnal version of moslem heaven.

The other interesting question is whether there is time in Purgatory.  I lean towards yes.

[TradGranny]

As for the saints, God deigns to honor His friends in Heaven by performing miracles after we pray for their intercession.  I speculate that every prayer for intercession is a cause of joy for the saint.  In a sense he is "always interceding" and always taking part in the joy of people who obtain a miracle.

As far as the original question, there is no time in heaven.  You are, viewing what you are ordered towards, the Beatific vision.  The temporal view of heaven I've labled "Never Ending Summer Block Party Heaven", a less carnal version of moslem heaven.

The other interesting question is whether there is time in Purgatory.  I lean towards yes.

That makes sense.
Time is the measure of change.
Time must pass very slowly in purgatory.
In Heaven, who knows? "Eye has not seen and ear has not heard."

When evoltionists try to argue with me, I ask them
"Who created time, space and matter?"
or
"How do you think time, space and matter came to be?"

God transcends His creation.

[KreKre]

The other interesting question is whether there is time in Purgatory.  I lean towards yes.

I would think so. Clearly, the Purgatory is a temporary state, every soul there will eventually transition to Heaven, so I would think there must be a flow of time there, so that this change can occur.

After the final Judgement, it would make sense that time would cease to exist, at least for the blessed souls. Then Heaven would be the completion of time, man's ultimate purpose achieved, God's plan realized. I'm wondering more about the present situation, when living souls are clearly stuck in time. We know that angels have free will, therefore they cannot know the future with absolute certainty, so they must somehow be constrained in time, too, at least in some way - probably very differently than we are, perhaps only in their interactions with us. For saints, I would imagine that they are more constrained than angels, but I really have no idea. What is clear to me is that their intercession requires more time than it is available here in the world of the living.

[james03]

Good point.  Their intercession points them being outside of time.

[drummerboy]

Won't the Last Judgment be more of an illumination of conscience affair, where we will be made instantaneously aware of everybody's actions?  The concept of a literal listing of everybody's dealings seems far fetchrd