Standing up against atheists and non-believers.

[LausTibiChriste]

You'd be amazed (except you will have heard it all in your own experiences) with what people think Catholics actually teach.

"There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be."

+Archbishop Fulton Sheen

What Sheen says is completely and totally false. People understand what the Catholic Church is, and they hate it, because children of this world hate the children of light.

To take one specific example -- they know that the Catholic Church doesn't allow birth control. They hate that. They also hate the Catholic Church for not permitting divorce and homosexuality.  These things are are not misperceptions, they are all true.

Although I've never looked at it like that, and you're quite right - I still thing it true in many circumstances....I could name a million examples of my own friends/acquaintances/co-workers ragging on the Church about some "doctrine"...when in reality they were completely out to lunch.

[lauermar]

Confidence in knowledge of the truth.  Unashamed catholicity. 

Why should we fear the world when they so brazenly stand steadfast in their sick beliefs. 

Do it charitably, but firmly and gently convey catholicism.  It's true, and you know it.  Speak with the firmness you would that 2+2=4. 

But recall the whole pearls and swine business.

This. 

There's something else, too. I listened to a SermonAudio from an atheist scientist converted to Protestant. It was the best argument I ever heard and I still use it. I don't give Protestants credit for the whole truth, but he answered the "Does God Exist" question in a scientific, rational and most beautiful way. I am a science major who has worked in the industry for 30 years. A truly open mind accepts science *and* creation theory, because God used both to create the universe.

The SermonAudio said:  Believing that random combinations can create an organized universe is not rational, nor is it scientific. The scientific method seeks to hold random chance down to a confidence interval of 5% or less. The tighter your experiment, the better. That way you can prove your hypothesis that something occurred NOT DUE TO CHANCE. To try to prove that the entire universe and the order of creation, a masterful design, was created out of random chance is the OPPOSITE of the scientific method. It's like believing that a cyclone blowing through a junk yard will create a beautiful automobile or a new computer in a random act of energy. It's ridiculous. It's absurd. It's impossible. The universe is far too complex to have been created this way. Most things left to themselves can only become disintegrated.

The experiments by Dr. Miller and others to recreate the big bang using a primordial soup and some electricity didn't result in any forms of life. These foolish men did not realize that even if they had succeeded, they would only prove creation theory anyway; that you need a mind to set up and orchestrate the process of creation, because it cannot begin all by itself with no one there.

I highly recommend you listen to this podcast. It's the best 40 minutes you'll ever spend. After that, you will have no problem standing up to atheists. Link below.  Ex-Athiest / Evolutionist testimony

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=11306211835

[AngloFalcon]

Confidence in knowledge of the truth.  Unashamed catholicity. 

Why should we fear the world when they so brazenly stand steadfast in their sick beliefs. 

Do it charitably, but firmly and gently convey catholicism.  It's true, and you know it.  Speak with the firmness you would that 2+2=4. 

But recall the whole pearls and swine business.

This. 

There's something else, too. I listened to a SermonAudio from an atheist scientist converted to Protestant. It was the best argument I ever heard and I still use it. I don't give Protestants credit for the whole truth, but he answered the "Does God Exist" question in a scientific, rational and most beautiful way. I am a science major who has worked in the industry for 30 years. A truly open mind accepts science *and* creation theory, because God used both to create the universe.

The SermonAudio said:  Believing that random combinations can create an organized universe is not rational, nor is it scientific. The scientific method seeks to hold random chance down to a confidence interval of 5% or less. The tighter your experiment, the better. That way you can prove your hypothesis that something occurred NOT DUE TO CHANCE. To try to prove that the entire universe and the order of creation, a masterful design, was created out of random chance is the OPPOSITE of the scientific method. It's like believing that a cyclone blowing through a junk yard will create a beautiful automobile or a new computer in a random act of energy. It's ridiculous. It's absurd. It's impossible. The universe is far too complex to have been created this way. Most things left to themselves can only become disintegrated.

The experiments by Dr. Miller and others to recreate the big bang using a primordial soup and some electricity didn't result in any forms of life. These foolish men did not realize that even if they had succeeded, they would only prove creation theory anyway; that you need a mind to set up and orchestrate the process of creation, because it cannot begin all by itself with no one there.

I highly recommend you listen to this podcast. It's the best 40 minutes you'll ever spend. After that, you will have no problem standing up to atheists. Link below.  Ex-Athiest / Evolutionist testimony

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=11306211835

That's a really good reply. Thanks for sharing and taking the time to post. I will listen to the audio sermon, it sounds very interesting indeed. 

[james03]

Here you go:

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/ 

Start reading his blog.  Read back posts.  Probably over a thousand.  Give it a few weeks and you'll start learning.  Also read some of his books.

Merry Christmas.

[Gerard]

You'd be amazed (except you will have heard it all in your own experiences) with what people think Catholics actually teach.

"There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be."

+Archbishop Fulton Sheen

What Sheen says is completely and totally false. People understand what the Catholic Church is, and they hate it, because children of this world hate the children of light.

To take one specific example -- they know that the Catholic Church doesn't allow birth control. They hate that. They also hate the Catholic Church for not permitting divorce and homosexuality.  These things are are not misperceptions, they are all true.

Most of them also think the Catholic Church can and will eventually change on these issues.  Anyone who thinks the Church can change doctrine doesn't know the Church.

I would argue that most people believe birth control to be a good thing because they've been persuaded that it's a good thing and unquestioningly believe it. And why not? No credible argument to them has ever been put forth.   They don't know the rationale the Church uses in teaching against it, they've been persuaded that the Church has no rationale for teaching against it beyond raw vestigial authority being exercised cruelly.  Tom Woods in the opening paragraph of "How the Catholic Church built Western Civilization states that his students knew nothing of the Church except one word: corruption.

Most people haven't ever been put to the test about their perceptions or the premise on which they evaluate things, they are presented an evil as a good and a straw man version of good to be liberated from.

Aquinas teaches that man is essentially good, fallen but still good.  How many would respond positively to the truth the Church teaches?  Probably a lot, and a good number of them would be too weak to actually make the sacrifices necessary to agonize for their salvation. 

[Francisco Suárez]

You'd be amazed (except you will have heard it all in your own experiences) with what people think Catholics actually teach.

"There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be."

+Archbishop Fulton Sheen

What Sheen says is completely and totally false. People understand what the Catholic Church is, and they hate it, because children of this world hate the children of light.

To take one specific example -- they know that the Catholic Church doesn't allow birth control. They hate that. They also hate the Catholic Church for not permitting divorce and homosexuality.  These things are are not misperceptions, they are all true.

Keep in mind that +Sheen said that over 50 years ago, in a context very different from what we live in today. He was most likely correct at the time.

[Chestertonian]

You'd be amazed (except you will have heard it all in your own experiences) with what people think Catholics actually teach.

"There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be."

+Archbishop Fulton Sheen

What Sheen says is completely and totally false. People understand what the Catholic Church is, and they hate it, because children of this world hate the children of light.

To take one specific example -- they know that the Catholic Church doesn't allow birth control. They hate that. They also hate the Catholic Church for not permitting divorce and homosexuality.  These things are are not misperceptions, they are all true.

as a convert i will say that the portraral of catholic faithams morality I was exposed to via public school was very different from the catholicism i studied while I was converting.  yes people know the church teaches that birth control is wrong but do they know why?  has it been articulated well, in your way that refutes counter arguments?

a lot of other people hate the church because sister meanie pants dragged them down the hallway by the ear lobe.  their emotional baggage keeps them from looking at it objectivity

i also know q lot of protestamts who grew up with ridiculous ly false ideas about the church..  when I made the sign of the cross once before saying grace, a pro estant friend once said "why do you do that mary thing"

[Maximilian]

I would argue that most people believe birth control to be a good thing because they've been persuaded that it's a good thing and unquestioningly believe it.

Right. That's why people believe most things that they do.

And why not? No credible argument to them has ever been put forth.   They don't know the rationale the Church uses in teaching against it, they've been persuaded that the Church has no rationale for teaching against it beyond raw vestigial authority being exercised cruelly. 

That's why these things are so important. A man is presented with a choice between good and evil. His eternal destiny is riding on the decision. He has to be able to recognize good from evil instinctively. If he listens to the arguments of the world, then he fails. It's not a question of logic or reason. It's a question of the knee-jerk reactions of our soul. St. Paul said that sinners have no excuse because the law of God was written on their hearts.

[Maximilian]

Keep in mind that +Sheen said that over 50 years ago, in a context very different from what we live in today. He was most likely correct at the time.

Sheen was saying this at the time when the most destructive war in human history had just ended, and the "Iron Curtain" had just fallen across half of Europe. Catholics were being persecuted as cruelly as at any time in history. Those people doing the persecuting knew exactly what they were doing. They knew what the Catholic Church stood for, and they hated it from the bottom of their souls.

[Maximilian]

as a convert i will say that the portraral of catholic faithams morality I was exposed to via public school was very different from the catholicism i studied while I was converting.  yes people know the church teaches that birth control is wrong but do they know why?  has it been articulated well, in your way that refutes counter arguments?

They don't have to know why. They have to recognize evil when they see it.

No one can stand in front of the judgment seat of God and use the excuse that the counter-arguments of their opponents were too weak, and that is why they sinned, and so they should get a free pass. That' simply not going to work.

As Jesus said, "They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them. If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, then they won't listen even if a ghost were to appear from the dead," or even if they heard well-articulated counter arguments.

Anyone who cares about their salvation and is afraid for the eternal destiny of their soul will do whatever it takes and learn whatever is necessary and train themselves to have the right instincts.

Besides, it wasn't that long ago that all the protestant denominations agreed with the Catholic Church about birth control. And for that matter, the Orthodox Jews still do. So the cultural memory of what is right and what is wrong is still present.  No matter what they might say, every person knows that they are doing wrong when they commit the sins of fornication and adultery and homosexuality and divorce and all the rest.

To the extent that they don't recognize when these things are wrong, that indicates that they have killed their conscience, and more clever counter-arguments aren't going to change that.

[Chestertonian]

orthodox jewish beliefs on contraception are actually more similar to orthodox christian stance on the subject

[Gerard]

That's why these things are so important. A man is presented with a choice between good and evil. His eternal destiny is riding on the decision. He has to be able to recognize good from evil instinctively. If he listens to the arguments of the world, then he fails. It's not a question of logic or reason. It's a question of the knee-jerk reactions of our soul. St. Paul said that sinners have no excuse because the law of God was written on their hearts.

What Sheen is saying is that people ARE choosing good over evil concerning the Church.  The problem is they are honestly in error.  He is not talking about the judgement seat of God but rather the judgement of mankind in the earthly sphere. 

His follow up points are: "...These millions can hardly be blamed for hating Catholics because Catholics "adore statues;" because they "put the Blessed Mother on the same level with God;" because they "say indulgence is a permission to commit sin;" because the Pope "is a Fascist;" because the Church "is the defender of Capitalism."

If the Church taught or believed any one of these things, it should be hated, but the fact is that the Church does not believe nor teach any one of them. It follows then that the hatred of the millions is directed against error and not against truth. As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do."

[Maximilian]

That's why these things are so important. A man is presented with a choice between good and evil. His eternal destiny is riding on the decision. He has to be able to recognize good from evil instinctively. If he listens to the arguments of the world, then he fails. It's not a question of logic or reason. It's a question of the knee-jerk reactions of our soul. St. Paul said that sinners have no excuse because the law of God was written on their hearts.

What Sheen is saying is that people ARE choosing good over evil concerning the Church.  The problem is they are honestly in error.

Yes, I know what Sheen is saying, and he is completely wrong. People are not honestly in error. That was the fundamental mistake of both Socrates and Confucius. They both thought that people always choose the good over evil but are mistaken about the good. They both were ignorant of original sin, so they misunderstood human nature.

St. Paul said (Romans 7):
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that there dwelleth not in me, that is to say, in my flesh, that which is good. For to will, is present with me; but to accomplish that which is good, I find not.
19 For the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that which I will not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Men reject the Catholic Church because of sin. Not because of a misunderstanding.

[Non Nobis]

That's why these things are so important. A man is presented with a choice between good and evil. His eternal destiny is riding on the decision. He has to be able to recognize good from evil instinctively. If he listens to the arguments of the world, then he fails. It's not a question of logic or reason. It's a question of the knee-jerk reactions of our soul. St. Paul said that sinners have no excuse because the law of God was written on their hearts.

What Sheen is saying is that people ARE choosing good over evil concerning the Church.  The problem is they are honestly in error.

Yes, I know what Sheen is saying, and he is completely wrong. People are not honestly in error. That was the fundamental mistake of both Socrates and Confucius. They both thought that people always choose the good over evil but are mistaken about the good. They both were ignorant of original sin, so they misunderstood human nature.

St. Paul said (Romans 7):
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that there dwelleth not in me, that is to say, in my flesh, that which is good. For to will, is present with me; but to accomplish that which is good, I find not.
19 For the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that which I will not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Men reject the Catholic Church because of sin. Not because of a misunderstanding.

Then what is the good of Catholic apologetics?

Individuals can have a misunderstanding when they have not been taught rightly about the Church.  It's not all instinct.  I think Sheen is wrong because many more reject the Church out of hate than he seemed to think.  But not every convert starts with hatred of the Church; they may be open to it but filled with prejudice because of what they were previously taught.

Much of the moral law that the Church teaches is a part of the natural law.  Men should have an instinct about what is right and wrong by nature.  But the Church is more than that, and instinct is not always enough.

[Pheo]

Voris (partially) addressed this point in his most recent Vortex.  There may be some misunderstandings floating around about the Church, but I don't think it's as common as some would have us believe.  Ignorance isn't enough to save a man, and if that's the best we can hope for, then we've set our sights far too low.



He goes a little Sir Humphrey Appleby near the end