Josef Seifert: Francis Has “Rejected Christianity”, Turned God into a "Relativis

Started by martin88nyc, February 09, 2019, 10:59:11 PM

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Non Nobis

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on February 11, 2019, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 11, 2019, 10:42:43 AM
That's the only legitimate question here. Why make the Devil at all knowing he would, of his own free will, become what he is.

Exactly. 

Why?

I can go farther than that - why didn't God create all of us, angels and men, in heaven where we would freely adore God but absolutely would not sin?  These are ultimately God's questions to answer.  But doesn't God's becoming man (the evil: the Devil, the fall... and the good: Christ becoming man and dying for us) have much to do with this?  And also, giving men and angels  the power to choose evil or good, and become more like God, in the exercise of their free will (rather than just beholding God in heaven, in a way just a spectator).  Free will and the love/choice of God is that wonderful of a good, that it makes permitting an evil worth it.  God brings good out of permitted evil.
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: Non Nobis on February 11, 2019, 07:19:23 PM
I can go farther than that - why didn't God create all of us, angels and men, in heaven where we would freely adore God but absolutely would not sin? 

This was basically Quaremare's answer.  He said something like "God should have arranged things so that the angels didn't rebel".

But if God had created us, and the angels, so that we "absolutely would not sin", then He would have had to create us without Free Will, would He not?  What is Free Will without the freedom to choose evil?

Can human beings, and angels, exist without Free Will?

Quote
And also, giving men and angels  the power to choose evil or good, and become more like God, in the exercise of their free will (rather than just beholding God in heaven, in a way just a spectator).

Yes, God could have created beings without the capacity to choose either good or evil and presumably evil would have remained as pure potential without ever being actualised. But what would those created beings - angels and men - be like?

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Free will and the love/choice of God is that wonderful of a good, that it makes permitting an evil worth it.  God brings good out of permitted evil.

Is Free Will a wonderful good?  Or is it simply a faculty that we, as human beings, could not exist without.

God bringing some kind of 'greater good' out of an ocean of suffering is a much repeated explanation.  But it also helps, I find, to acknowledge that evil is inevitable in a world of created rational beings and that the only alternative, the only way, that the world could exist without evil having been actualised, is if God had not created angels and men.

A world without evil can only be a world without angels and men.  That's the deal.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

Kreuzritter

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on February 12, 2019, 04:31:26 AM
Is Free Will a wonderful good?  Or is it simply a faculty that we, as human beings, could not exist without.

This is what I say. Freedom, and freedom to act out of itself, is intrinsic to the nature of an "I" and it's transcendental self-identity and real unity. There is no "I" without it, human or otherwise.

Yes, I'm sure some will whittle away the essential meaning of "human" to the point that one can have "humans" with free will and "humans" without it, but this is game of semantics. Biblically, a "human" is an imago dei and possesses this freedom.

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 12, 2019, 05:18:07 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on February 12, 2019, 04:31:26 AM
Is Free Will a wonderful good?  Or is it simply a faculty that we, as human beings, could not exist without.

This is what I say. Freedom, and freedom to act out of itself, is intrinsic to the nature of an "I" and it's transcendental self-identity and real unity. There is no "I" without it, human or otherwise.

Yes, I'm sure some will whittle away the essential meaning of "human" to the point that one can have "humans" with free will and "humans" without it, but this is game of semantics. Biblically, a "human" is an imago dei and possesses this freedom.

Agreed.  It is impossible to be human without the freedom to choose, which has to mean the freedom to choose evil.  When the the abortionist asserts that principle by stating the 'pro-choice' arguement, the question then becomes - is it your choice to follow God's law or not?  And some will inevitably say "not".  The existence of the capacity to choose isn't the issue.  It's the actual choice that matters.

I find it quite consoling to view things in this way.  In creating rational creatures with Free will, God knew that a some/many would choose evil, thereby making evil a real and active force in the world. And He went ahead anyway.  That's the deal, and if it wasn't, we wouldn't exist.

The problem of evil isn't God's. It's ours.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

Michael Wilson

The Church teaches that the Angels and Blessed in Heaven retain the faculty of free will, but that by the fact of their being admitted to the Beatific vision, they freely and infallibly chooses to love God. Freedom to err, sin or reject God, is a defect of free will; Our Lord, Our Blessed Mother both had free will, yet never sinned.  So God theoretically could have arranged things in such a way that both Angels and men would have had both free will and not have sinned. Yet, when Angels and men sin, they do so freely and in spite of God's assisting grace. So Heaven is not free, and creatures have to earn their place there. God truly does will the salvation of His creatures and provides more than sufficient means to each and every one of them so that they may attain it. 
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Xavier

As we know, the purpose of our life is that we may learn to know and especially love God above all things; and, for this, freedom is an absolute necessity, since inanimate creatures without freedom can't love God.

The Saints in Heaven have free will perfected both by divine grace and human effort, hearts perfectly united to the Sacred Heart, as the Immaculate Heart always is. Now, for free will to be perfected, a certain period of trial and testing, as it were, is fitting, since we thereby learn to responsibly exercise freedom and desire the Supreme Good above all things; when grace makes known to us the possibility of perfect union with this Supreme Good, so much the more ought we to ensure our hearts and our affections rest solely in God, to serve and love Him as He is in Himself, and in His creatures for His sake. In this way, we become like Him. This likeness is perfect in the Saints who consequently do not sin.

Moreover, as St. Thomas loves to say, the slightest good of grace is greater than the greatest good of nature. Thus, one single perfect act of contrition or love of God for His own sake from us, being supernatural is a greater good than the whole visible creation. In some way, as with all meritorious acts that draw down grace from Heaven, in union with Christ, it mysteriously contributes to creation itself according to mystics. At any rate, each and every good work done in grace merits a special reward in heaven, as we are taught by the Church and Christ in the Gospel.

And merit too is impossible without freedom. Those who respond holily to evil, forgiving enemies, praying for persecutors etc - as Christ Our Lord did, and His Saints and martyrs in union with Him - merit much more and Heaven is filled with brightness and glory through such heroic acts, which even if it stood alone, would seem to fulfill the purpose of creation. Thus, freedom is needed. Of course, freedom should be responsibly exercised, comformable to God's Law, and to our ultimate end, which is perfect union of Love with Him.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: Michael Wilson on February 12, 2019, 07:26:38 AM
The Church teaches that the Angels and Blessed in Heaven retain the faculty of free will, but that by the fact of their being admitted to the Beatific vision, they freely and infallibly chooses to love God. Freedom to err, sin or reject God, is a defect of free will; Our Lord, Our Blessed Mother both had free will, yet never sinned.  So God theoretically could have arranged things in such a way that both Angels and men would have had both free will and not have sinned. Yet, when Angels and men sin, they do so freely and in spite of God's assisting grace. So Heaven is not free, and creatures have to earn their place there. God truly does will the salvation of His creatures and provides more than sufficient means to each and every one of them so that they may attain it.

But Michael, surely the Angels and Blessed in Heaven have free will because without it they wouldn't be angels or human in the first place.   The Blessed in Heaven have chosen, of their own free will, to follow God's Law and have attained Heaven as a result of that choice which they consistently acted on during their lives on Earth.  Their free will remains, without which they would not be rational creatures capable of having made that choice.  It's just that their Free Will is now perfectly aligned with God's Will.

Sorry, but how could God, in theory, have created angels humans with free will and then arranged things so that neither sinned?  And if God could have done this, then why didn't He? 

Because there is no free will without the freedom to choose evil, and there can be no angels or men without free will, which means a will that is free to choose evil.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

Michael Wilson

Awkward C.
I don't claim to understand how it all works out; but somehow it does.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: Michael Wilson on February 12, 2019, 08:50:13 AM
Awkward C.
I don't claim to understand how it all works out; but somehow it does.

Sorry, but it doesn't.   

If God could have arranged things so that men and angels could have free will but never choose to sin and therefore never be damned, then surely He would have done so.  Simply arguing that God wanted to bring a greater good out of not arranging things in this way is inadequate on its own.

Either the will is free or there is no Free Will.  God 'arranging things' implies God restricting or modifying the will in some way, and God chose not to do this because when He says He's giving His creatures Free Will, He means it. The 'greater good' argument then applies but only once it is established that the God given freedom to choose is what makes us human.  It is how we exercise that freedom that determines what kind of humans we become.

And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

Santantonio

Within the parameters of space and time, ages and angels, men and animals, etc..
I do not see how it is propitious to split philosophical hairs concerning theodicy and
distinctions between the Father's (Trinity's) so-called positive will and "ontological" will;
it is better consider only the difference between active and permissive will,
as God acts or permits according to His divine plan as it works in real time until the "end".

Considering then the diffferences between active and permissive, the joint statement issued
plainly and strongly states it is God's active will (not even his punishment for original sin)
that dictates pluralism.

The pluralism and the diversity of religions, colour, sex, race and language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created human beings.

and therefore: "the imposition of a cultural way of life that others do not accept."..."must be rejected

The statement therefore rejects Original Sin, God's punishments, God's Incarnation, etc...
every prime Scriptural essence. It is worse than heresy. It is total apostasy.

GloriaPatri

I would like to simply point out that those posters who are saying that free will necessitates the ability to choose evil are either a) Stripping God of His free will, or b) Denying that God's nature is equivalent to the nature of the Good because He could, hypothetically, choose to do evil.

Furthermore, they are implying that either the saints in heaven no longer have free will, or that they are capable of sinning while experiencing the Beatific Vision.

The teaching of the Church has been fairly consistent: freedom of will requires the ability to do good. It does not require the ability to do evil, which is a weakness of free will, not a strength.

Santantonio

Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 11, 2019, 10:42:43 AMWhy make the Devil at all knowing he would, of his own free will, become what he is.

Being Omnipotent, God has the ability to suspend His Omniscience when He pleases, in this case
to allow Free Will for angels and men. Christ is an example of this. Mk 13:32, Mt 24:36
Not only can God suspend His Omniscience in particular instances, He can even adjust His Omniscience so as to not conflict with Free Will of His creatures. So there you have it. Either way, or both, depending upon His Will.

Kreuzritter

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on February 12, 2019, 08:35:14 AM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on February 12, 2019, 07:26:38 AM
The Church teaches that the Angels and Blessed in Heaven retain the faculty of free will, but that by the fact of their being admitted to the Beatific vision, they freely and infallibly chooses to love God. Freedom to err, sin or reject God, is a defect of free will; Our Lord, Our Blessed Mother both had free will, yet never sinned.  So God theoretically could have arranged things in such a way that both Angels and men would have had both free will and not have sinned. Yet, when Angels and men sin, they do so freely and in spite of God's assisting grace. So Heaven is not free, and creatures have to earn their place there. God truly does will the salvation of His creatures and provides more than sufficient means to each and every one of them so that they may attain it.

But Michael, surely the Angels and Blessed in Heaven have free will because without it they wouldn't be angels or human in the first place.   The Blessed in Heaven have chosen, of their own free will, to follow God's Law and have attained Heaven as a result of that choice which they consistently acted on during their lives on Earth.  Their free will remains, without which they would not be rational creatures capable of having made that choice.  It's just that their Free Will is now perfectly aligned with God's Will.

Sorry, but how could God, in theory, have created angels humans with free will and then arranged things so that neither sinned?  And if God could have done this, then why didn't He? 

Because there is no free will without the freedom to choose evil, and there can be no angels or men without free will, which means a will that is free to choose evil.

I agree. It makes sense to me: the Beatific Vision involves an enternal union with God, and for a free spiritual being to enjoy that union, it has to make the choice to enter into it. I think these things are intrinsic to what Heaven and these beings are; there's no such thing as creating an angel or human in the state of such union.

Kreuzritter

Quote from: Santantonio on February 12, 2019, 10:38:06 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 11, 2019, 10:42:43 AMWhy make the Devil at all knowing he would, of his own free will, become what he is.

Being Omnipotent, God has the ability to suspend His Omniscience when He pleases, in this case
to allow Free Will for angels and men. Christ is an example of this. Mk 13:32, Mt 24:36
Not only can God suspend His Omniscience in particular instances, He can even adjust His Omniscience so as to not conflict with Free Will of His creatures. So there you have it. Either way, or both, depending upon His Will.

That unfortunately doesn't answer the question, which wasn't the how but the why.

Santantonio

Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 12, 2019, 10:54:33 AM
Quote from: Santantonio on February 12, 2019, 10:38:06 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on February 11, 2019, 10:42:43 AMWhy make the Devil at all knowing he would, of his own free will, become what he is.

Being Omnipotent, God has the ability to suspend His Omniscience when He pleases, in this case
to allow Free Will for angels and men. Christ is an example of this. Mk 13:32, Mt 24:36
Not only can God suspend His Omniscience in particular instances, He can even adjust His Omniscience so as to not conflict with Free Will of His creatures. So there you have it. Either way, or both, depending upon His Will.

That unfortunately doesn't answer the question, which wasn't the how but the why.

Yes it does. Just suspend as I described, to your quote: "knowing he would"