Why value love over dominance?

[Melkor]

After digging deep into the abyss of myself, I came to a horrible realization - all of my spiritual praxis, prayer, mediation, liturgy, etc. for my whole life has been for the glorification of myself. That is, I really detested being "me". I still do. I have no real pragmatic utility except for being tall and above average intelligence (which is meh compared to the geniuses today). Never good at sports, uncoordinated, ugly-ish, and some level of neuro-atypicality (I'm not autistic or anything, but I never felt "normal" - I never really felt satisfied from the pleasures of life; they grew old really quickly; I never really cared about pleasing anybody socially, never really cared about petty social hierarchy dominance rituals, never really had a friend group or relationships, never really cared about any of this; and I always needed, at least once a week, alone time in my room).

In reality though, a lot of this stems from just feeling socially inferior and not wanting to bother. Because I am. I am socially inferior.

So religion was the perfect way to escape from all of this and find some way I could raise myself above others. By being morally virtuous, by being ascetic, by having discipline and restraining from the pleasures of life, I could ascend and become higher than all. As a parallel, I could become a Saint and laugh condescendingly at people below me.

But the truth is, despite wearing the moniker of "Catholic", "Orthodox",  "Christian", I never showed any "love" or compassion to anyone who I felt didn't deserve it, and if I did, it was all motivated by pleasing God or others. Nor do I see any pragmatic value in it aside from me being selfishly motivated.


All real forms of love seem to be biconditional. A tit for tat. A mother loves her son because of biological biases and the pleasure from seeing her son love her back. Your friends only value you because they feel like you bring some value to them, and vice-versa. Your boss gives you a raise because you either performed great work or society obligated him too. Your lover loves you because of lustful satisfaction. Etc.

And really, even for those who claim to show unconditional love, so often the "I" is the center of it. "I" volunteered at the soup-kitchen because "I" wanted to feel good about it. "I" felt that God told me I should. How often will someone at a soup-kitchen hug a broken down poor family who never feels loved for no reason?

I really don't see why I should. Nobody has ever showed me love unconditionally. I always have to provide value to them for them to even care. Why should I take a step forward and show them unconditional love?

And really, what about the role of dominance in life? Even from teenage years, it seems innate for us to want to dominate others. We create social status hierarchies of dominance based on wealth, attractiveness, social extravertedness, etc., with a bunch of losers at the bottom who are neither pretty, wealthy, or extroverted. Even contemporary Western society today is built on such vanity; even politics. When we see political enemies that we hate, we raise ourselves above them and view them as lesser. Look at all those redneck incestuous GED hicks who won't get the Covid vaccine, who vote for Trump! Look at all those Leftist SJW pink hair dyed manchildren with their Sonic the Hedgehog toys!

I mean dang it, even reading the Bible shows nothing but petty dominance disputes. Who should be the King of Israel based on his countenance? Whether a Galilean could be the Messiah, and really, ultimately, "God has dominance over all, so if you don't submit yourself, He will exercise dominance over you and burn you forever"


It just seems like life is survival of the fittest, and if you aren't fit, die off.

So why not value dominance over unconditional compassion?

Or... instead of feeling sorry for yourself you could go out and get some hobbies. I recommend getting outside and doing some fishing and/or hunting. Get some weights and lift them. Also, a good cigar and a whisky with friends around a campfire does wonders for a person. Video games, with moderation, can help you too.  When one is active there is little time for self-pity.

I work out every single day and do Muay Thai. Very few value me like that to invite me out for a cigar and whisky; I've only been invited for that in undergraduate college campuses, and that was because of Catholicism, not because anyone genuinely valued me. Sort of the pat on the back "I love you because Jesus loves you" kind of thing.

Granted, a lot of my loneliness is a consequence of my own decisions, and I take responsibility, but a lot of those decisions came about as an immature teenager negatively lashing out to bullying and social isolation by my peers, who still by and large socially isolate me to this day.

Unfortunately, life is suffering - perhaps a foretaste of Hell - and two possible options when one realizes this (besides depression) are either to stop playing by the rules and take advantage of the system for your own benefit, or decry the system as the enemy and try to live a life for others through a religion or social work.

Besides Heaven, is there a tangible benefit for picking the latter?

I didn't mean to come across as rude. I can understand where you are coming from. Hemingway said: "Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know." But dwelling inside ourselves too much is not healthy. It really makes a world of difference to get outside and do something. Hunting is extremely spiritually uplifting. The confidence that comes with knowing how to use a gun, kill a deer with it, and preparing your own meat is a game changer. It embodies all that is primal and rugged within a man. Cannot recommend it more. If you don't know the first thing about it, take the initiative and talk to some local guys. I'm sure someone will be glad to get you started/give you tips/become your mentor. Another thing is having a machine to work on and ride. While I don't have a motorcycle yet (working on it Mr James) a dirt bike or quad is pretty fun. A quad can also help you out with hauling your deer. Dirt bikes are more fun, but quads are more practical. Pick your poison if you're like me and can't afford both. [emoji23] Life sucks but it is also a short ride that can be both spiritually fulfilling and physically rewarding. I will pray for you man.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christe Eleison]

After digging deep into the abyss of myself, I came to a horrible realization - all of my spiritual praxis, prayer, mediation, liturgy, etc. for my whole life has been for the glorification of myself. That is, I really detested being "me". I still do. I have no real pragmatic utility except for being tall and above average intelligence (which is meh compared to the geniuses today). Never good at sports, uncoordinated, ugly-ish, and some level of neuro-atypicality (I'm not autistic or anything, but I never felt "normal" - I never really felt satisfied from the pleasures of life; they grew old really quickly; I never really cared about pleasing anybody socially, never really cared about petty social hierarchy dominance rituals, never really had a friend group or relationships, never really cared about any of this; and I always needed, at least once a week, alone time in my room).

In reality though, a lot of this stems from just feeling socially inferior and not wanting to bother. Because I am. I am socially inferior.

So religion was the perfect way to escape from all of this and find some way I could raise myself above others. By being morally virtuous, by being ascetic, by having discipline and restraining from the pleasures of life, I could ascend and become higher than all. As a parallel, I could become a Saint and laugh condescendingly at people below me.

But the truth is, despite wearing the moniker of "Catholic", "Orthodox",  "Christian", I never showed any "love" or compassion to anyone who I felt didn't deserve it, and if I did, it was all motivated by pleasing God or others. Nor do I see any pragmatic value in it aside from me being selfishly motivated.


All real forms of love seem to be biconditional. A tit for tat. A mother loves her son because of biological biases and the pleasure from seeing her son love her back. Your friends only value you because they feel like you bring some value to them, and vice-versa. Your boss gives you a raise because you either performed great work or society obligated him too. Your lover loves you because of lustful satisfaction. Etc.

And really, even for those who claim to show unconditional love, so often the "I" is the center of it. "I" volunteered at the soup-kitchen because "I" wanted to feel good about it. "I" felt that God told me I should. How often will someone at a soup-kitchen hug a broken down poor family who never feels loved for no reason?

I really don't see why I should. Nobody has ever showed me love unconditionally. I always have to provide value to them for them to even care. Why should I take a step forward and show them unconditional love?

And really, what about the role of dominance in life? Even from teenage years, it seems innate for us to want to dominate others. We create social status hierarchies of dominance based on wealth, attractiveness, social extravertedness, etc., with a bunch of losers at the bottom who are neither pretty, wealthy, or extroverted. Even contemporary Western society today is built on such vanity; even politics. When we see political enemies that we hate, we raise ourselves above them and view them as lesser. Look at all those redneck incestuous GED hicks who won't get the Covid vaccine, who vote for Trump! Look at all those Leftist SJW pink hair dyed manchildren with their Sonic the Hedgehog toys!

I mean dang it, even reading the Bible shows nothing but petty dominance disputes. Who should be the King of Israel based on his countenance? Whether a Galilean could be the Messiah, and really, ultimately, "God has dominance over all, so if you don't submit yourself, He will exercise dominance over you and burn you forever"


It just seems like life is survival of the fittest, and if you aren't fit, die off.

So why not value dominance over unconditional compassion?

Or... instead of feeling sorry for yourself you could go out and get some hobbies. I recommend getting outside and doing some fishing and/or hunting. Get some weights and lift them. Also, a good cigar and a whisky with friends around a campfire does wonders for a person. Video games, with moderation, can help you too.  When one is active there is little time for self-pity.

I work out every single day and do Muay Thai. Very few value me like that to invite me out for a cigar and whisky; I've only been invited for that in undergraduate college campuses, and that was because of Catholicism, not because anyone genuinely valued me. Sort of the pat on the back "I love you because Jesus loves you" kind of thing.

Granted, a lot of my loneliness is a consequence of my own decisions, and I take responsibility, but a lot of those decisions came about as an immature teenager negatively lashing out to bullying and social isolation by my peers, who still by and large socially isolate me to this day.

Unfortunately, life is suffering - perhaps a foretaste of Hell - and two possible options when one realizes this (besides depression) are either to stop playing by the rules and take advantage of the system for your own benefit, or decry the system as the enemy and try to live a life for others through a religion or social work.

Besides Heaven, is there a tangible benefit for picking the latter?

I didn't mean to come across as rude. I can understand where you are coming from. Hemingway said: "Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know." But dwelling inside ourselves too much is not healthy. It really makes a world of difference to get outside and do something. Hunting is extremely spiritually uplifting. The confidence that comes with knowing how to use a gun, kill a deer with it, and preparing your own meat is a game changer. It embodies all that is primal and rugged within a man. Cannot recommend it more. If you don't know the first thing about it, take the initiative and talk to some local guys. I'm sure someone will be glad to get you started/give you tips/become your mentor. Another thing is having a machine to work on and ride. While I don't have a motorcycle yet (working on it Mr James) a dirt bike or quad is pretty fun. A quad can also help you out with hauling your deer. Dirt bikes are more fun, but quads are more practical. Pick your poison if you're like me and can't afford both. [emoji23] Life sucks but it is also a short ride that can be both spiritually fulfilling and physically rewarding.

I will pray for you man.    


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Dear MELKOR

Thanks for your nice post! Thanks for caring!!

The best part is what I highlighted! PRAY for him!

If you both happen to be in the same town, at some point, get together for some fellowship!

And or maybe you all can CHAT here on the forum, I think Jacob used to
always try to get some people together.
You just have to set up a convenient time, date for all involved, IN ADVANCE. To use the CHAT feature of the forum. Announce it ahead of time.

I have never used it, so I do not have a clue. But others have, like JACOB.

Thanks for your post & kindness, MELKOR!!
May God Bless & reward you for it!!

ONGOING PRAYERS for RAGNAROK! 

[Tennessean]

You just have to figure it out, I guess. I'll pray for you though, but not ragnarok.

[Ragnarok]

I think a part of it is the reasons I feel the way I do is that humanity's morals are insane now.

I find all mainstream media totally repulsive. I can't watch television, I can't watch Netflix, I can't even cope with video games.
Dating is terrible - I feel like finding a woman even at the level of committing a mortal sin here and there is just impossible now - it's pure promiscuity and lust at best, at worst it's polyamoratry or worse yet, "holy shid I can't keep sleeping around with cute guys my fertility is running out I need to find a nice guy to marry oh my gosh"
Human beings are terrible relationship wise - most human beings lack any intellectual depth whatsoever and exist now in pure social dominance rituals - like it's beyond just taking a manly jab at each other for our shortcomings, every relationships seems like a "Keeping up with the Jones's" situation, but I'm not intelligent enough to actually be valuable, so I'm stuck in this awkward middle ground of not relating to anyone and nobody valuing me whatsoever.
There is no social or community cohesion anymore whatsoever.

All of this affects every Church community I've ever been a part of too, every Church community I've ever been a part of I always felt like an outsider.


Top it all off that the normal pains and struggles of life - sin, regrets, old age hitting you like a truck, the unfairness of genetic diversity -

I literally feel like a demon, like Lucifer outside the hierarchy of angels. I feel no love from God or anyone. I don't know how I even feel about my family (they love me because of biological bias and have helped me with college, but besides that, they never liked me for who I am and never really participated in my life at all, or helped me at all develop as a person). I'm just numb, depressed, impotent, and paralyzed - I have no motivation for anything.

Saint Anthony's Prophecy is 100% true.



What, finish school? Just so I can socially contribute to a world that hates who I am in my very essence?


Honestly, a part of me just wants to get a job that pays off my debt, if not find some way to get rid of my debt, and then join a monastery somewhere. This modern world is no longer corrupt but beautiful - it's purely evil and demonic. Makes me wonder if Gnosticism was right, honestly.

Like can the Antichrist just show up already? Seriously, just let me find some Faith in this degenerate world. Each and every day God mocks us with how insane things are, and He's just silent, like a painting of Christ staring at you, no response.

For some reason, I prefer truth and suffering than delusion and happiness. I have no idea why I even value truth anymore.


I remember being suicidal when I was a young teenager, but I used idealism to move forward. My mom asked my grandfather about me one day, and he said "Survival of the fittest. If he wants to kill himself, let him do it - some aren't strong enough to survive."

Maybe he was right. Maybe if I was born 6000 years ago and I lived in some Slavic Hunter-Gatherer tribe, I would've just died to the wolves like nature intended. Maybe it's just survival of the fittest, and I either have to be dominant or die off.

[Tennessean]

Its quite a stretch to go from "this %*^& sucks" to gnoosticism was right. I'm not a big brain /lit/fag though, I'm just an idiot.

[Ragnarok]

Its quite a stretch to go from "this %*^& sucks" to gnoosticism was right. I'm not a big brain /lit/fag though, I'm just an idiot.

Gnosticism holds Satan (The Demiurge) created the world and everything material is pure evil in its essence; basically, the God of the Old Testament is the Devil (they take to heart when Jesus called the Pharisees's father Satan)., whereas Pauline Christianity holds that the material world is good, just corrupted by original sin.

[Tennessean]

[Vetus Ordo]

I'm just numb, depressed, impotent, and paralyzed - I have no motivation for anything.

And yet you have the motivation to rant regularly on an internet forum about how miserable your life is. Think about that for a second.

What, finish school? Just so I can socially contribute to a world that hates who I am in my very essence?

How exactly does the world hate who you are in your very essence? You seem to project a lot of your own insecurities onto the world and the people around you.

Honestly, a part of me just wants to get a job that pays off my debt, if not find some way to get rid of my debt, and then join a monastery somewhere.

This might be the moment of clarity in an otherwise pointless rant. I'm not entirely sure you're cut for a life in a monastery but you should certainly get a job to pay off your debt. That will improve your self-esteem, your confidence and change the dynamics of your daily life for the better.

I remember being suicidal when I was a young teenager, but I used idealism to move forward. My mom asked my grandfather about me one day, and he said "Survival of the fittest. If he wants to kill himself, let him do it - some aren't strong enough to survive."

Maybe he was right. Maybe if I was born 6000 years ago and I lived in some Slavic Hunter-Gatherer tribe, I would've just died to the wolves like nature intended. Maybe it's just survival of the fittest, and I either have to be dominant or die off.

You know that isn't true, otherwise you wouldn't be posting here. You'd be commiserating with fellow Darwinians somewhere else about the absurdity of existence. You want attention and some sort of validation, Ragnarok. Instead of making veiled allusions to suicide and fantasizing about Gnosticism, I urge you to take control of your own life and start doing something useful with it. Step by step. It will improve your mood and your mental state by leaps and bounds.

[Tennessean]

I think Ragnarok has /pol/ fatigue. There is no cure, but he can treat the symptoms by going on bike rides or taking walks.

[MaximGun]

I feel like finding a woman even at the level of committing a mortal sin here and there is just impossible now

Then Trad chapels would not be conducting weddings, but they still are.  Trad Catholics are still getting married and shy librarians and other people too.

So is certainly not impossible.  The idea that EVERYONE is fornicating like the world is about to end is silly.   The idea that they are all on TikTok and other platforms looking for hook ups is silly too.  There are plenty of people who are not doing that for various reasons.  It does not have to be a majority of people because you just need to find one.  What 80% of women are doing (and I don't believe it is that high), does not matter because roughly the same proportion of men and women exist who don't do the wild fornication thing before marriage.

We have a friend who is a successful international figure skater.  Very pretty, slim, as you would expect from a figure skater, 20 years old, and mature beyond her years because she has spent a lot of time travelling around the world skating.  She met a 27 year old man who has all sorts of health problems and while we think he is a bit of a waster and not marriageable material she appears to want him to commit and settle down which he appear unwilling to do.  Neither of them are tiktok hook up fornicators.

What you need to do it tackle YOUR goals one at a time and not keep telling yourself that the sky is falling.

[Tennessean]

Getting your shit together and putting in the work comes before happiness. Here's something from my wisdom folder:

(I don't see a spoiler button, so don't read it, because its vulgar.)



Its exactly like that.

[ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez]

I feel like finding a woman even at the level of committing a mortal sin here and there is just impossible now

I was a lousy person who did all the wrong things before meeting Mrs. Right, and when I did meet her, I dragged her into mortal sin before marriage, got her on the pill, and didn't repent and lead our family until an external event caused my reversion.  So I can't say I have personal experience doing things the right way.  I wish I had.

But I do sometimes look back and consider how I would have done things differently if I had been a better Catholic.  So my thoughts might be useful to you.  Take them or leave them.

My first thought is to have standards and not be ashamed of them.  Don't ever apologize for having standards.  If you wouldn't date a girl who picked her nose in public or went around using the "N" word, then you know what it feels like to have standards.  Just make one of your standards "no mortal sins together".  It's a lot tougher to reject someone who wants to sleep with you than it is to reject someone who digs for gold and throws around slurs, but it's a standard nonetheless.  This could mean that most of your first dates don't turn into second dates, but that's OK.  That's normal.

My second thought is to eliminate most of your free time by doing something productive.  Spend an hour in adoration every day.  Say a 15-decade Rosary every day.  Spend an hour at the gym every day.  If you're in school, take more credit hours.  Add another major.  When you finish, pursue a master's degree.  You don't have to do all of these things, but one or two of them is a good idea--especially the first two.

[Melkor]

"Life is suffering
Love is the desire to see unnecessary suffering ameliorated
Truth is the handmaiden of love
Dialogue is the pathway to truth
Humility is recognition of personal insufficiency and the willingness to learn
To learn is to die voluntarily and be born again, in great ways and small
So speech must be untrammeled
So that dialogue can take place
So that we can all humbly learn
So that truth can serve love
So that suffering can be ameliorated
So that we can all stumble forward to the Kingdom of God"

? Jordan B. Peterson

[Ragnarok]

And yet you have the motivation to rant regularly on an internet forum about how miserable your life is. Think about that for a second.

The difference is that I know this forum won't accomplish anything and it's a place where I can vent about my tragic existence, whereas me trying to improve my lot in life is a view of waiting for something in the future to work itself out, rather than living in the moment - one rooted in fantasy and imagination. Something I've lived for the past decade, a fantasy of hope, and quite honestly, I'm sick of it. I just want to face the truth, not delude myself about life getting better in the future.

How exactly does the world hate who you are in your very essence? You seem to project a lot of your own insecurities onto the world and the people around you.

I have no idea, but people alienate me naturally; like there's a red flag on my head that everyone sees which I cannot see. Maybe I'm neuroatypical (despite having been tested in my youth and each time I'm normal), maybe I'm just ugly, maybe I'm just weird, maybe it's a combination of all of the above. But everywhere I go, if human social hierarchy is like the angels, I'm not even a guardian angel. I'm a demon burning outside of it altogether.

You know that isn't true, otherwise you wouldn't be posting here. You'd be commiserating with fellow Darwinians somewhere else about the absurdity of existence. You want attention and some sort of validation, Ragnarok. Instead of making veiled allusions to suicide and fantasizing about Gnosticism, I urge you to take control of your own life and start doing something useful with it. Step by step. It will improve your mood and your mental state by leaps and bounds.

I actually don't now, hence why I'm posting here, wondering if anyone can refute it. And I don't see why I should do anything "useful" for anyone. How do you define "useful". And I don't care about Gnosticism.

[Ragnarok]

I feel like finding a woman even at the level of committing a mortal sin here and there is just impossible now

Then Trad chapels would not be conducting weddings, but they still are.  Trad Catholics are still getting married and shy librarians and other people too.

So is certainly not impossible.  The idea that EVERYONE is fornicating like the world is about to end is silly.   The idea that they are all on TikTok and other platforms looking for hook ups is silly too.  There are plenty of people who are not doing that for various reasons.  It does not have to be a majority of people because you just need to find one.  What 80% of women are doing (and I don't believe it is that high), does not matter because roughly the same proportion of men and women exist who don't do the wild fornication thing before marriage.

We have a friend who is a successful international figure skater.  Very pretty, slim, as you would expect from a figure skater, 20 years old, and mature beyond her years because she has spent a lot of time travelling around the world skating.  She met a 27 year old man who has all sorts of health problems and while we think he is a bit of a waster and not marriageable material she appears to want him to commit and settle down which he appear unwilling to do.  Neither of them are tiktok hook up fornicators.

What you need to do it tackle YOUR goals one at a time and not keep telling yourself that the sky is falling.

Strawman. I never made the claim that women use social media like TikTok for hookups. I'm saying the nature of pursuing a relationship went from "economia" to unsustainable. That has nothing to do with social media (although Tinder being the most popular dating app is a symptom of our society, not the cause of it).

I mean, you may wish life was fair, but there's a reason why half of marriages now end in divorce, the fertility rate in the West has dropped drastically, and 17% of Zoomers (almost 1 in every 5 people) identify as LGBTQ.

Relationships traditionally took a lot of hard work, and nobody now - perhaps not even I due to disaffection - want to put in the effort.

The Trad Cat bubble (as well as other traditional religions) may be the last refuges of civilization as it once existed, but it's just that - a bubble - and not representative of the morals and values of our society at large.



But romantic relationships are just one aspect of it that points to the bigger picture. It's my social non-existence with human beings in general and isolation, the complete atomization of the community, how everything the West stands for is against everything I conceive myself as "being", and how contributing to society's functionality feels unfulfilling because I'm giving my life's labor to a society that despises everything I believe in.


I don't see how any person can look at the contemporary world as a Catholic and say that the Pagan Roman times were worse. At least that had some normalcy, honor, virtue, and a greater metanarrative at large that the population believed in and has some legitimate reasoning behind it.