JRR Tolkien

[Jacob]

Gardener's post with links to the bulletin inserts.  He thought there could be more coming and promised to link to them, but he didn't, so I assume this all there was.

https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=5618.msg129416#msg129416

[Traditionallyruralmom]

Here is the original discussion of the sermons with links from 2014.

https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=5618.0

this is wonderful to read through..

[Gardener]

Gardener's post with links to the bulletin inserts.  He thought there could be more coming and promised to link to them, but he didn't, so I assume this all there was.

https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=5618.msg129416#msg129416

Nice find, Jacob.

That's all there was, I think. I'd email Fr. and ask him, but I am not sure I want to waste request capital on 5 year old issues.

[Traditionallyruralmom]

Gardener's post with links to the bulletin inserts.  He thought there could be more coming and promised to link to them, but he didn't, so I assume this all there was.

https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=5618.msg129416#msg129416

Nice find, Jacob.

That's all there was, I think. I'd email Fr. and ask him, but I am not sure I want to waste request capital on 5 year old issues.

sending your bulletin links to my friend now

[Philip G.]

It seems to me after listening to the first sermon by the priest, that the convenient and successful argument against tolkien is guilt by association.  The fact that LOTR is so popular among this world, flesh, and devil is a red flag, and the priest does not fail to point it out. 

[Gardener]

Re-reading part 1 of the rebuttal makes me miss Fr. Jackson so much. But alas, may we both be holy enough to meet again on those distant shores of which even Tolkien could not conceive, nor Peter Jackson illustrate — though of which Fr Jackson so often speaks.

[dymphnaw]

Listen to the homily again. I found it liberating. LOTR is a great fantasy story. It's not the fifth gospel. The Carmelite priest asks a good question. How many people converted becuase they read LOTR?

[Conclavist]

Well, using "radtrad logic", I thought JRR Tolkien's might be "problematic", and yet JRR Tolkien is spoken of highly by most who identify as Catholic it seems.

What Are The Catholic Norms?

I have not been able to figure out what boundaries Catholics want to set on artistic expression.

For instance, the surrealistic painter (who converted to Catholicism) Salvador Dali got this painting approved by the pope in some way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Madonna_of_Port_Lligat

I would expect trads, out of context, to possibly think of it as blasphemous and disrespectful modernism.

"Dalí submitted it to Pope Pius XII for approval, which was granted."

Confusing Themes in Fiction

In my own experience of limited prohibitions on consuming fiction, I can understand where confusion might arise. I don't really even like telling kids that "Santa Claus exists", I don't know how other trads feel about that "fantasy". There was a Disney film "All Dogs Go To Heaven" that suggested to me maybe men all go to heaven, or it also talks about something the Church hasn't really said one way or the other as far as I know about if we might see a pet in heaven. A film like Pocahontus talked about Native American spirituality, I think. There are regular creations of fantasy religious and philosophical elements which I think can be "problematic".

Catholic Adaptations of Fictional Works?

On the other hand, fantasy and fiction seem powerful for developing intelligence in children. I have wondered if Catholics might start a movement to created "altered" adaptations of popular works, to edit out the objectionable materials. I have experienced a lot of otherwise acceptable media that has just a few problems in it.

Zelda

For instance, the popular video game series "The Legend of Zelda" I've read was originally conceived as a medieval Christian story, but it was changed at the last minute into a fictional false religious system. Perhaps something like that could simply have a few things tweaked to be an actual Christian game?

Alternatives Might Exist or Could Be Created

Also, I imagine there are probably Catholic works of fiction that may be less popular but which fill the same desires and need for imagination for kids. I don't know of them as I haven't been looking in to that recently, but I imagine it is out there or could be created. In fact, the arts are maybe undervalued by trads as they may have more of an effect than openly preaching theological concepts, as they get in to the culture which then gets people to research the theological concepts.

A Need For Basic Understanding of Works For "Cultural Literacy"?

Should Catholics often know what the basic synopsis of a story is behind major cultural works, like read a Wikipedia synopsis of stories, in order to participate in a wider cultural conversation on art? I think something like this probably needs to be created, because if someone starts talking about the newest this-or-that then I might be able to connect on it, but only if I know what they are talking about (although I see limits to this, as there are downright useless stories promoted today). I think of a lot of projects I wish we could work on, if we didn't also have this meltdown of other Catholic theological issues going on (sedevacantism, etc.).

"Classical" Literature Probably Has Same Problems

Greek and Roman mythology or some of these other kinds of fictional stories that are popular throughout history probably also contain "problematic" contents by a "strict radtrad" standard, although this prompted some like RJMI to reject them on those grounds I think.

A Long-Term Plan To Transition From "Problematic" Content?

Possibly though, it could be made a goal to move over time away from anything that seems questionable or "problematic". JRR Tolkien's writing may be considered a "modern classic", but maybe it could be surpassed or adapted into something better that would delete the "bad parts". I mean, I just think there has to be lots of content out there, why can't we just find stories we absolutely have no scruples about? I can see how some might have scruples about sorcerers in Tolkien works.

A Conversation on the Topic

I think again if we had the "Church in order", we would probably be able to have open discussions on these issues. I feel like I run in to a lot of "Practical Applied Moral Theology" questions out in the world. We would probably in a different time and setting be able to just talk about things and figure it out.

What Was Said Before Vatican 2?

Haven't researched this, but you could either see what they consumed or what they said about art back then, as some guide to what is still acceptable. They may not have caught everything though, which we should keep in mind.

Solutions: Define Limits & Principles, Create Canon, Create New Works?

Some clear solutions I've thought of off and on would be to first create some clear limits and principles and guidelines for the creation of Catholic fiction. Next, we could create an agreed-upon list of works that are "imprimatured" or accepted without scruples by Catholics. We could also encourage a culture of creating new works and/or adapting the old to fit to traditional Catholic norms as we now see them.

[Daniel]

Conclavist -

You bring up some good points. If there were more Catholic works out there then we wouldn't even need to pay much attention to the inferior non-Catholic stuff.

But I think you might be looking at it the wrong way. Saying "Reject the totality of the work on account of its bad parts" is a lot different than saying "Accept all that is good and reject all that is bad". Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be of the former opinion. Yet many 'radtrads' are of the latter opinion: we don't need to systematically go through every work and cut out all the bad stuff, so long as the reader is able to identify the bad stuff and not allow it to poison him. Children are at greater risk, but this is why good Catholic education is important. That said, there is some stuff that's just so bad that we shouldn't be watching it in the first place... but Tolkien certainly doesn't fall into this category, nor do the classical Greek myths, etc. A Catholic can benefit from reading pagan myths, and he can do so without becoming a pagan.

I think it also needs to be pointed out that a thing can be 'true' in a non-literal sense even if it is 'false' in the literal sense. This is why I personally don't have much of a problem with Santa Claus, or even with the fictitious religious system in the Zelda games.

[Conclavist]

Hi Daniel,

Here's a little booklet on the Index of Forbidden Books: https://archive.org/details/romanindexforbi00goog/page/n68

It says, p. 59, "Are [anthologies] forbidden to the Catholic, if they contain writings from proscribed authors? ... Any volume of them is forbidden which contains at least one selection taken from one individual author in which the description of "book" given in Note 5 is verified, and as stated in Rule 1, the removal of the objectionable section would also remove the prohibition."

I don't know how much this is all in force anymore, but I think it still stands and is common sense.

So, if by extension, an objectionable section in a book was comparable to an objectionable section in an anthology, the books are forbidden totally unless the objectionable material is removed.

So say an otherwise ok movie wanted to insert a scene that had indecency in it. It would be banned. But if the same potential movie removed that scene, nothing objectionable would be in it (all else equal), so it would be fine.

So, if the Tolkien stories are ok otherwise but contain sorcery which we think should be excluded, I'd guess we could edit it out or "adapt" it and it would be fine. Or you'd have to claim the themes of sorcery are "ok fantasy". Otherwise I think the books would be banned, is the thought.

To me I never was really in to LOTR but if trads would reject Harry Potter for promoting sorcery, it would seem LOTR would have the same problem.

I'd rather like to see a focus on just showing people what they CAN read rather than emphasize what is FORBIDDEN. We could find the best stuff we have that's allowed right now and just work on improving its quality to make it more competitive for the future.

[Maximilian]

The Epistle for the third Mass of Christmas Day could be the "foundational text" for Tolkien lovers:

Hebrews 1
7 And to the angels indeed he saith: He that maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Reminds me of when Gandalf says "I am the servant of the secret fire,"when he's fighting the Balrog.

[Michael Wilson]

The sorceres in LOTR are not conjuring the spirits but are superior beings that have a natural power over nature; somewhat akin to Angels that would become incarnate.

[Kreuzritter]

And again I'm reminded why I don't support Roman Catholic theocracy and inquisitorial heretic hunting.

[TheReturnofLive]

And again I'm reminded why I don't support Roman Catholic theocracy and inquisitorial heretic hunting.

TBH while I don't have a clear answer, I'm for the time being convinced that those who want to censor "morally corrupt" works of literature often times leads to horrendous results, either with incompetency of the leadership or a gross abuse of power.

For incompetency,

One example is the Russian Orthodox Church during the 19th century. The entire point of Dostoevsky's story "Notes from the Underground" was that Christ was the solution to repentance from the irrational, self-seeking nature of mankind, and without that, any kind of Utopia on Earth would fail, because mankind IS irrational and self-seeking. But the single most important part of that novel which explicitly brought up Christ was censored because the protagonist, an insane and unlikeable figure, speaks highly of Christ, and the Church thought it was blasphemy that an insane, unlikeable figure was speaking highly of Christ. That was the key passage that brought the entire novel together. The entire message was pretty much lost; although you can still read the Christian message if you are careful, especially with the second half of the story, it isn't as clear.

And then the Russian Orthodox Church was completely incompetent at censoring Chernyshevsky's "What's to be done?," a book that pretty much argued for a revolution that replaced capitalism with socialism, the destruction of gender roles (that is, women becoming like men), and the abolishment of the Church and the replacing of it with "Science." The Russian Orthodox Church said "There's nothing wrong here!"

For horrendous results, one only needs to look at the films, literature, and music that was released in Russia during the Stalin era. Watch the "Fall of Berlin" and let me know if you think such a film is a cinematic masterpiece and not at all laughable by how absurdly idolatrous and ideological the film is.

[Maximilian]

For horrendous results, one only needs to look at the films, literature, and music that was released in Russia during the Stalin era. Watch the "Fall of Berlin" and let me know if you think such a film is a cinematic masterpiece and not at all laughable by how absurdly idolatrous and ideological the film is.

Sergei Bondarchuk's "War and Peace" was made during the time of Soviet censorship. It's often considered the greatest movie ever made. Certainly better than anything produced by Hollywood up until that point.

At a time in the 20th century when Western art had fallen into decadence, Soviet Russia still had composers like Prokofiev and Shostakovish producing great classical works of art.

Ballet was almost entirely Russian. The only accomplishment the West could claim was to steal a couple of Russian dancers and then act like that was some triumph of art.

They had nearly total dominance in chess and were the leaders in sports.

In literature they had Bulgakov, Alexander Solzhenitsyn and Boris Pasternak at a time when the West had stopped producing great works .