Old Romans (Jerome Lloyd): Thoughts?

[OzarkCatholic]

What are anyone's thoughts on the Old Romans and Jerome Lloyd? Lately their videos are rather on point regarding the crisis and TC. I know they have issues with Vatican I, and are borne out of the see of Utrecht debacle from even before then.

[Michael Wilson]

Do you mean "Old Catholics"?

[Prayerful]

+Jerome Lloyd is someone I have watched, plus watched some of his Masses.

Now a dead blog post of some defunct society claims Jerome Lloyd denied various dogmas, but it looks a little like someone took umbrage at him, and other Old Catholics and decided to engage in detraction. Whatever I heard him say sounds orthodox. His videos get small views, and I don't see him saying anything controversial enough for Youtube to subtract views, which they can do. However, as the Wikipedia page for Old Catholic Church in Europe mentions, and which I heard +Lloyd say too, is that they dissent from V1. Not wholly sure, really. Interesting. Old Catholics tend to be fervent Ecumenists, for instance the bishop who ordained him, +Boniface Grosvold RIP was a fervent ecumenist. The Utrecht Union, the original Old Catholics who saw the see vacated by Pius IX, are quite liberal, now ordaining women priests, and have broken with Polish and other Eastern European old Catholics. I notice also that +Jerome Lloyd imposed a sort of interdict on one Monsignor George Papathanasiou, who, or someone in his circle, possibly authored the dead blog, with its mix of Latin and Greek terminology. It has a fascination.

[Ragnarok]

Unfortunately, the Old Catholic movement has been so hijacked by progressives (even to the point that their Churches are in communion with the Anglican Communion and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Sweden - how does that work?) that there's no difference between an orthodox Old Catholic and a vagante bishop. And joining obscure vagante groups are a dangerous route to go through, because there's probably a reason not strictly theological on why they want to run the show themselves (hungry for power / cultism, organized crime, drug usage, obscene political views, weird beliefs (including Luciferianism, Crowleyism, Rastafarianism, Hinduism, etc.))

You might as well join the Anglican Ordinariate, the SSPX, a Continuing-Anglican Communion (like the Anglican Catholic Church), or become Western-Rite Orthodox (both the Russian Orthodox Church and Antiochian Orthodox Church have Western Rite structures) just for the sake of having a Church hierarchy and structure. "Anyone who has himself as a spiritual director has a fool for a disciple" - Saint Bernard

[Prayerful]

Unfortunately, the Old Catholic movement has been so hijacked by progressives (even to the point that their Churches are in communion with the Anglican Communion and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Sweden - how does that work?) that there's no difference between an orthodox Old Catholic and a vagante bishop. And joining obscure vagante groups are a dangerous route to go through, because there's probably a reason not strictly theological on why they want to run the show themselves (hungry for power / cultism, organized crime, drug usage, obscene political views, weird beliefs (including Luciferianism, Crowleyism, Rastafarianism, Hinduism, etc.))

You might as well join the Anglican Ordinariate, the SSPX, a Continuing-Anglican Communion (like the Anglican Catholic Church), or become Western-Rite Orthodox (both the Russian Orthodox Church and Antiochian Orthodox Church have Western Rite structures) just for the sake of having a Church hierarchy and structure. "Anyone who has himself as a spiritual director has a fool for a disciple" - Saint Bernard

Not all Old Catholics are liberal. The Ultrecht Union and some Eastern European OC communities have broken communion over issues like women priests. Roaming priests and bishops is an issue, whether for quality control or orthodoxy. Archbishop Thuc ordained and consecrated many of unclear orthodoxy or formation in between his periodic reconciliations with the diocesan Church. The CMRI owe their orders originally to an English-line Old Catholic episcopus vagans, who actually tried to help it turn from its cultish ways and are now headed by a bishop Mark Pivarunas who has Thuc line orders.

[Ragnarok]

Not all Old Catholics are liberal. The Ultrecht Union and some Eastern European OC communities have broken communion over issues like women priests. Roaming priests and bishops is an issue, whether for quality control or orthodoxy. Archbishop Thuc ordained and consecrated many of unclear orthodoxy or formation in between his periodic reconciliations with the diocesan Church. The CMRI owe their orders originally to an English-line Old Catholic episcopus vagans, who actually tried to help it turn from its cultish ways and are now headed by a bishop Mark Pivarunas who has Thuc line orders.

Sure, but the Old Catholic communion has been so compromised (by both progressives and nefarious bishops) that, for the sake of the well being of your flock, you should probably join another stable tradition. I mean, what would you do if one of your flock members has to move somewhere? Good luck guaranteeing them spiritual safety by virtue of your tradition. You might end up sending them to a cult or a degenerate church. 

At least with the other listed traditions, you can ensure enough stability for their spiritual safety.

I mean, all religions start small, but I personally think that there are so many orthodox denominations of Christianity already (even more than the ones I listed), you are better off supporting an existing one than starting a new one and risk hijacking by hell-bound thugs.

[Prayerful]

Not all Old Catholics are liberal. The Ultrecht Union and some Eastern European OC communities have broken communion over issues like women priests. Roaming priests and bishops is an issue, whether for quality control or orthodoxy. Archbishop Thuc ordained and consecrated many of unclear orthodoxy or formation in between his periodic reconciliations with the diocesan Church. The CMRI owe their orders originally to an English-line Old Catholic episcopus vagans, who actually tried to help it turn from its cultish ways and are now headed by a bishop Mark Pivarunas who has Thuc line orders.

Sure, but the Old Catholic communion has been so compromised (by both progressives and nefarious bishops) that, for the sake of the well being of your flock, you should probably join another stable tradition. I mean, what would you do if one of your flock members has to move somewhere? Good luck guaranteeing them spiritual safety.

I'm not a priest, if you mean that, and if I was, certainly wouldn't consider Old Catholics, who in most places seem to have more priests than believers, and have gone every which way in respect of matters like pretended women priests,  and were ecumenists before V2. They have far bigger issues than possible Jansenist roots. Ties with the Lutherans of Sweden might have made some sense sixty years ago as they had the closest to valid orders among Protestants (the first Protestant king variously did not care or wanted certainty) but the government forced them to ordain women in the 1960s. The reason is probably just ecumenism. Anyhow, Protestant communion is variously transignification or what is wrongly called consubstantiation, memorial, sometimes denial of Catholic teachings, but certainly not even a pretence of Catholicity. The Communion Service can look more Catholic than many V2 Masses, but that's a very low bar.

[OzarkCatholic]

For the record I'm not planning to go to an Old Catholic community; merely have been finding Lloyd's discussions and homilies of value and wanted to see if there was something glaring I was missing.

[Vincentus Ioannes]

The "Old Catholics" are a heretical sect with a sordid history.

https://tradcath.proboards.com/thread/1501/catholics-false-bishops-churches-cekada

[Ragnarok]

For the record I'm not planning to go to an Old Catholic community; merely have been finding Lloyd's discussions and homilies of value and wanted to see if there was something glaring I was missing.

Nearly every traditional ascetic religion has / had great leaders and Saintly figures. Some Catholics pretend they don't. But they do. One only needs to meet them in life to see that.

What it ultimately comes down to is this:

1. Do you want Jesus Christ to be your teacher?
2. If so, can you find the True Christ in that religion?

That's it.

You are doomed to insanity at worst, apostasy at least, if you join religions solely based on the personal virtues of the leadership (not that that's unimportant, but it shouldn't be your sole criterion), because your Faith won't last long when you see the dirty laundry of the practitioners.

(Matthew 7:24-27, Ephesians 2:19-22)

[Prayerful]

The "Old Catholics" are a heretical sect with a sordid history.

https://tradcath.proboards.com/thread/1501/catholics-false-bishops-churches-cekada

It is a comprehensive account, but on a few matters its blurs matters which were more nuanced. The Arnaulds, in particular Antoine Arnauld, and his sister Mère Marie Angélique, Abbess of Port-Royal de Champs, for Jansenism as a movement in France was in a major way a family concern, engaged in controversy with the royally favoured Jesuits. Blaise Pascal, who recast much of what Arnauld wrote in satirical form, had the temerity to show the unsoundness of cauistry, and other Jesuit devices. This ethical method was later to be condemned by Bl Innocent XI, who was himself to be falsely accused of Jansenism, when his cause was introduced after his death, but by that time the attempted ressourcement of the thought of St Augustine had been severely weakened as something of public standing, as Popes repeatedly condemned the ever more ingenious evasions of Unigenitus. Regional parlements often refused to receive and register it, to little avail, ultimately with King and Pope against Jansenism. A demotic element, as exemplified by François de Pâris and the Convulsionnaires of Saint-Médard (a movement of mostly laity who experienced religiously inspired convulsion in the cemetery of that name), was another side of it. The Jansenist ascetic and deacon, François de Pâris denounced Unigenitus as diabolical, and after he died, Cardinal Archbishop of Paris, Antoine de Noailles, commenced a process of beatification, although the Archbishop later submitted to the Papal condemnations, presumably ceasing with the beatification.

Jansenism had arose as a reaction to Pelagian seeming ideas promoted by the Jesuits, current in the early seventeenth century. It strayed badly in evading rather than submitting to Papal condemnation, which left sufficient room to carry on controversy. It was not heretical in intent from the start, but strayed into error through intellectual pride. 

Fr Cekada RIP does mock the Old Catholics in ways which might be used against sedevacantist communities who have Thuc line sacramental bishops (for it is rather unclear that Archbishop Thuc was a well man in his later years).

[Sanctae Crucis]

Dear Brothers,

Just a note to point out that +Lloyd is an OLD ROMAN Catholic, not Old Catholic.  It will take a little research, but you'll find that between the two "there is a great chasm fixed".

Paz en Cristo

[Fuerza]

Dear Brothers,

Just a note to point out that +Lloyd is an OLD ROMAN Catholic, not Old Catholic.  It will take a little research, but you'll find that between the two "there is a great chasm fixed".

Paz en Cristo

The Old Roman Catholics are an interesting group (actually several groups). While sharing their origins with the Old Catholic movement, they firmly reject the liberal/heretical beliefs of the Utretch Old Catholics and their liturgies are way more traditional than your typical NO (essentially the TLM with greater allowance for the vernacular, though generally retaining a little Latin). Some even commemorate the Pope during Mass, though they reject the concept of papal supremacy. While there is a lot to admire in their spirituality and they share much in common with Traditional Catholics, they are definitely outside the Church.

[Prayerful]

+Jerome Lloyd actually runs a restaurant staffed by former homeless men, so his evident spirituality is backed by practical social charity, but is still rooted in a movement is schismatic. The break long precedes the present apostasy. Old Caths or Ultrajectines have met Francis, but in the same capacity he met with Kirill, ecumenism and likely a shared progressivism.

[youngfogey]

I slightly know of Archbishop Lloyd from Facebook - he has wonderful vestments and does the TLM well.

That said, to put it mildly, I would not go to Mathew et al. (Vilatte, Carfora et al.) "succession" a.k.a. d.b.a. "independent Catholic" clergy and churches. Most of them were rightly turned down for ministry by actual churches and are playing at being priests. If one of the first things a bishop or priest does when you meet is try to prove his "lines of succession," run.

There's one of those, with an actual church, the town's former Episcopal church, rather near to me. It's run by a bishop who like Abp. Lloyd does the TLM perfectly. He was a Catholic and last I heard was running a little seminary based on what he remembered from 1960s Catholic seminary.

There are no more real Old Catholic churches in America. The little Polish National Catholic Church (Novus Ordo clones) and they parted ways around 15 years ago. The official American representatives of the Archbishop of Utrecht are... the Episcopal Church.