My liberal church finally went over the edge.

Started by 2Towers, September 08, 2019, 06:18:48 PM

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coffeeandcigarette

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on October 07, 2019, 04:36:52 AM

Why wouldn't you prefer to attend Mass every other Sunday, with your older children, so that you could at least be fully present at the Masses you attend?  Why would it be such a hardship for you and your husband to take it in turns to attend Sunday Mass, leaving babies and toddlers at home with the remaining spouse?  And if you tell me that a baby cannot endure being left with his father for a couple of hours once a fortnight until he is at least two years old, I simply won't believe you.

I think the Sunday Mass obligation is being misapplied in this emergency situation we all agree we're in, with the result that it is now deemed more important to be at half at Mass, if that,  once a week, than fully at Mass once a fortnight. And that despite the noise and disturbance that babies and toddlers inevitably cause no matter how diligent their parents are, their presence is considered more important than preserving the reverence, attention, silence and stillness of the TLM

It's madness.

Firstly, following the ten commandments have nothing to do with what we "prefer." If it was, the novus ordo people and Fr. Martin would all be in your boat. Fun... You can not "apply" or "mis-apply" the Sunday obligation, it is a command from God; not tradition, custom, local preference, or anything else where the term "apply" is appropriate.

Secondly, if we are in such an emergency, as you say we are, and the time of the anti-christ is now, which you have repeatedly said you think it is, and there will be no period of peace, which you have also said...then should we not all be going to mass as often as possible. The children were not left home because mass was in the catacombs. Children were not left home because mass in Ireland was out in a field, in the snow, and everyone was constantly watching for British soldiers trying to sneak up on them and kill them. Families would sneak to mass together during to communist persecution in Mexico. Those were real emergencies. We may be in the midst of a liturgical crisis, but that has nothing to do with children at mass. I also disagree that this would have been different pre-Vatican two in terms of solutions for parents. Any time you had a young family without grandparents/extended family around, you had this problem...ma Ingalls could never have gone to mass alone, they were isolated from everyone. This isolation of young families because of moving for work, parents dying, etc repeats itself throughout history no matter the liturgical clime. Also, anytime there was only one mass you had this same situation no matter how much family was around. No mother would want her sister/aunt/mother/friend missing Holy Mass, everyone has a Sunday obligation.

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: Maximilian on October 06, 2019, 10:07:11 PM
Quote from: The Curt Jester on October 06, 2019, 08:30:18 PM
Do we know for a fact that trad priests have given up on conversions? 

Another interesting point is that sheer number of people who were converts who attended at that church.  About fifty percent of the families/individuals who were attending at that time were converts (or one member was). 

Yes, this is a good point. The 4 adults with whom I usually converse during coffee after Mass are all converts, some with really miraculous bolt-out-of-the-blue stories.

I'm a convert.  So yes, there will always be a trickle of converts to Tradition.

But the overwhelming majority of Catholics are barely aware that Traditionalism exists.  As a convert, I had to seek out Tradition and yes, there are some like me who find it eventually.  But I hardly think that attracting a tiny number of new converts is a substitute for active conversion, which I have never known any Trad group engage in.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

coffeeandcigarette

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on October 07, 2019, 05:35:00 AM


I've had 20 years of hearing about the problems faced by Trad families and about how we must all cater to you.  Enough already, especially when I've had to endure one vicious insult after another when daring to raise the subject of the appalling loss of reverence, attention silence and stillness at Mass that we all have to endure.

Vicious...really??

Trust me, no one has to cater to us at all. We don't want special treatment, we don't want anything extra. It is simply that our attendance at mass is constantly questioned and sighed about. No one would question the right of a single person to attend mass, or a couple. It is simply families that are constantly taken to task for daring to obey God...He did not say "keep holy the sabbath day...if you have no kids, or two masses, or are not in an emergency."

I will also say this. At every single parish I have ever been part of it is the mothers of large families who are responsible for every potluck, every party, every procession, everything; which the single people all attend of course. It is they who teach their sons Latin tirelessly for hours so they can reverently serve mass. It is they who mend vestments, clean alter linens, get wax stains out of countless surplices. It is they who most likely raised the parish priest of every person on this forum. I would spend more time thinking about the numerous ways in which mothers contribute to parish life and the church in general, and less time berating them for wanted to obey God's commandments; no matter how difficult.

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: coffeeandcigarette on October 07, 2019, 06:00:19 AM
Secondly, if we are in such an emergency, as you say we are, and the time of the anti-christ is now, which you have repeatedly said you think it is, and there will be no period of peace, which you have also said...then should we not all be going to mass as often as possible.

This is actually a very good question, one that I have thought about.

Given the times we live in, I think we should be concentrating on making every Mass count.  We are told that the graces received at Mass are proportional to the disposition of the individual.  Attend Mass with full attention and reverence and the graces received will multiply.  Now I'm definitely not saying that parents who take babies and toddlers to Mass don't have the best of intentions.  Okay? But they cannot have full attention, it's impossible.

So let me ask, how can you be certain that having divided attention at every Mass you attend doesn't affect the graces you receive?  You assume that Christ will make up for any lack because He is so pleased with you for being there?  How can you be certain that He is pleased with your divided attention at Mass? 

So, no, I think every Mass should always count and that the spiritual fruits from realising this and making it happen at least some of the time would be considerable.

And we need those spiritual fruits now more than ever.  Besides, when you die and stand before God, you will be alone.  Your family won't be there.  So why not get used to it now?

Quote
The children were not left home because mass was in the catacombs. Children were not left home because mass in Ireland was out in a field, in the snow, and everyone was constantly watching for British soldiers trying to sneak up on them and kill them. Families would sneak to mass together during to communist persecution in Mexico. Those were real emergencies.

How do you know?  Were you there?

I would have thought it more sensible to leave babies and toddlers somewhere safe rather than expose then to the dangers of the catacombs or the Mass Rock, given that those attending could have been arrested at any time.  For the older children, well that's a different matter and I don't know if parents are obliged to expose their children to danger in such a way.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: coffeeandcigarette on October 07, 2019, 06:10:11 AM
Vicious...really??

Yes.  Haven't you read them.  Here's what I am according to some posters on this thread:

-  bitter,
-  twisted,
-  an old curmudgeon man,
-  or a nasty, singleton woman who collects china cats,
-  the kind of person who lives in an apartment building and complains about the neighbours' kids, the irony being that I DO live in     an apartment building and my next door and downstairs neighbours both have children, 
- someone who hates or has a problem with children wherever they are,
- someone with a searingly bad conscience who objects to the 'whimpering of children'.

So yes, vicious.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

nmoerbeek

Before I got married, I was told by the traditional priest to raise my kids according to what was written by a Russian Saint, Theophan the Recluse, I have tried to follow his instructions.  His writings on the impact of Grace upon the soul's of Children, even from infancy, have in my experience been competently true.  Among the things he demands from Parents is that they take their Kids not just to Divine Liturgy, but also to the smaller liturgies as well, even when they are infants.

I know that their is going to be some inclination against St. Theophan, because he was Russian Orthodox, but he is the only author that has written extensively on the impact of Grace upon Children from infancy that I know of.    My oldest is turning 9, and has been going to daily mass for years, even as an infant. I also, spent years going to daily Mass by myself.  So I know the difference between what it is like to go by myself and go with a large family.  I take 5 children with me to Mass daily and Vespers, the youngest is 2.

There is a confusion here between tranquility of mind and a spirit of peace.  A spirit of peace can manifest itself at any time and circumstance, feelings of tranquility of mind can be found when circumstances are laid out to put an exterior part of us at rest.  A person can experience profound tranquility of mind at Mass, or at a piano recital, or even fishing.  It is very pleasurable and beneficial that a mind be put at ease. Shrieking children do not put the mind at ease.

However, it does not damage the fruit of Grace from the Mass, a person can go to Church surrounded by shrieking infants and receive more grace that will help them overcome sin and keep the commandments, then if they want to a priest mass of absolute silence in a monastery that was more to their liking.  The same is with mental prayer, one person might suffer horrible dryness and distractions, and yet they receive real grace to be better, while another spends 30 minutes in tranquility of mind, and yet walk away worst then they started because there prayers are viewed by God as self indulgent.

We should all take pains to make the Mass reverent, parents need to punish their children when they act up, which St. Theophan recommends.  However, I am totally opposed to the idea they should not be allowed to receive the Graces of the Mass which act upon their souls even without their intellectual participation.  It violates the commandment to do unto others as they would have them do unto you, if you want to receive Graces from the Mass then you should wish that all people, even infants, be able to receive them as well.



"Let me, however, beg of Your Beatitude...
not to think so much of what I have written, as of my good and kind intentions. Please look for the truths of which I speak rather than for beauty of expression. Where I do not come up to your expectations, pardon me, and put my shortcomings down, please, to lack of time and stress of business." St. Bonaventure, From the Preface of Holiness of Life.

Apostolate:
http://www.alleluiaaudiobooks.com/
Contributor:
http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/
Lay Association:
http://www.militiatempli.net/

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: nmoerbeek on October 07, 2019, 08:20:31 AM
Shrieking children do not put the mind at ease.

You're right.

Quote
However, it does not damage the fruit of Grace from the Mass .....

Are you sure?

Quote
..... a person can go to Church surrounded by shrieking infants and receive more grace that will help them overcome sin and keep the commandments, then if they want to a priest mass of absolute silence in a monastery that was more to their liking. 

Perhaps the monasteries should open up their Masses and bring in the shrieking infants to help the monks overcome their sin and keep the commandments. 

I wonder why the monasteries haven't thought of that already?

Think of the marvellous opportunities they are missing as a result of their love of silence and their rules to enforce it.  Poor things.

Quote
The same is with mental prayer, one person might suffer horrible dryness and distractions, and yet they receive real grace to be better, while another spends 30 minutes in tranquility of mind, and yet walk away worst then they started because there prayers are viewed by God as self indulgent.

You've no way of knowing how God views someone else's prayers.


Quote
We should all take pains to make the Mass reverent, parents need to punish their children when they act up, which St. Theophan recommends.  However, I am totally opposed to the idea they should not be allowed to receive the Graces of the Mass which act upon their souls even without their intellectual participation.  It violates the commandment to do unto others as they would have them do unto you, if you want to receive Graces from the Mass then you should wish that all people, even infants, be able to receive them as well.

The Church does not require infants under the age of reason to attend Mass, so there is that. 

You and Saint Theophan the Recluse think that babies and toddlers should attend Mass. The Church thinks differently and you throw the commandments at me.

You take it upon yourself to bring infants to Mass, despite the Church not requiring you to do so and despite the inevitable disturbance they will cause.  And you're telling me how to receive Graces from the Mass!!!!
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

coffeeandcigarette

#322
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on October 07, 2019, 06:23:34 AM
Quote from: coffeeandcigarette on October 07, 2019, 06:00:19 AM
Secondly, if we are in such an emergency, as you say we are, and the time of the anti-christ is now, which you have repeatedly said you think it is, and there will be no period of peace, which you have also said...then should we not all be going to mass as often as possible.

This is actually a very good question, one that I have thought about.

Given the times we live in, I think we should be concentrating on making every Mass count.  We are told that the graces received at Mass are proportional to the disposition of the individual.  Attend Mass with full attention and reverence and the graces received will multiply.  Now I'm definitely not saying that parents who take babies and toddlers to Mass don't have the best of intentions.  Okay? But they cannot have full attention, it's impossible.

So let me ask, how can you be certain that having divided attention at every Mass you attend doesn't affect the graces you receive?  You assume that Christ will make up for any lack because He is so pleased with you for being there?  How can you be certain that He is pleased with your divided attention at Mass? 

So, no, I think every Mass should always count and that the spiritual fruits from realising this and making it happen at least some of the time would be considerable.

And we need those spiritual fruits now more than ever.  Besides, when you die and stand before God, you will be alone.  Your family won't be there.  So why not get used to it now?


As a parent your first responsibility is to raise your children for God. When you are raising your children for Our Lord, according to His Will, you are doing the most perfect thing you can do. When St. Paul said to pray without ceasing, he meant that even when we are not formally praying, we should be offering up everything we are doing to God, thereby making it a prayer, and continuing our "ceaseless praises" of God. There are plenty of writings about how we can find God among the pots and pans, etc. So I put it to you that when a mother is at church and is directing her child in prayer, or teaching them about God, that she is in the middle of her ceaseless prayers to God and therefore wholly engrossed in the Mass and the very point of Mass; the salvation of souls. I don't think, especially considering the mass illiteracy of the majority of Catholic faithful until VERY recently, that following along in the missal is the gauge for participation. I think a women who comes, humbly, MODESTLY, and reverently to Mass, and spends the time praying, offering up her children and husband to God, and teaching her babies about Our Lord is getting all the graces available.

nmoerbeek

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on October 07, 2019, 09:06:45 AM
Quote from: nmoerbeek on October 07, 2019, 08:20:31 AM
Shrieking children do not put the mind at ease.

You're right.

Quote
However, it does not damage the fruit of Grace from the Mass .....

Are you sure?

Quote
..... a person can go to Church surrounded by shrieking infants and receive more grace that will help them overcome sin and keep the commandments, then if they want to a priest mass of absolute silence in a monastery that was more to their liking. 

Perhaps the monasteries should open up their Masses and bring in the shrieking infants to help the monks overcome their sin and keep the commandments. 

I wonder why the monasteries haven't thought of that already?

Think of the marvellous opportunities they are missing as a result of their love of silence and their rules to enforce it.  Poor things.

Quote
The same is with mental prayer, one person might suffer horrible dryness and distractions, and yet they receive real grace to be better, while another spends 30 minutes in tranquility of mind, and yet walk away worst then they started because there prayers are viewed by God as self indulgent.

You've no way of knowing how God views someone else's prayers.


Quote
We should all take pains to make the Mass reverent, parents need to punish their children when they act up, which St. Theophan recommends.  However, I am totally opposed to the idea they should not be allowed to receive the Graces of the Mass which act upon their souls even without their intellectual participation.  It violates the commandment to do unto others as they would have them do unto you, if you want to receive Graces from the Mass then you should wish that all people, even infants, be able to receive them as well.

The Church does not require infants under the age of reason to attend Mass, so there is that. 

You and Saint Theophan the Recluse think that babies and toddlers should attend Mass. The Church thinks differently and you throw the commandments at me.

You take it upon yourself to bring infants to Mass, despite the Church not requiring you to do so and despite the inevitable disturbance they will cause.  And you're telling me how to receive Graces from the Mass!!!!

I am certain of the point that a shrieking infant does not diminish the grace of a Mass.

I assume that the triple exclamation point was meant to portray indignation at me?  Why, the graces of the Mass act upon all those in a State of grace, a christian should not be seeking to deprive other Christians of those graces. If you do wish to deprive others of graces then you should not expect God to bless you.

I attend Mass at a Monastery daily with Children, and St. Theophan the Recluse was a monk. 

The Monks love my Children coming, and if you don't believe it you can come visit me and ask them yourself. 
"Let me, however, beg of Your Beatitude...
not to think so much of what I have written, as of my good and kind intentions. Please look for the truths of which I speak rather than for beauty of expression. Where I do not come up to your expectations, pardon me, and put my shortcomings down, please, to lack of time and stress of business." St. Bonaventure, From the Preface of Holiness of Life.

Apostolate:
http://www.alleluiaaudiobooks.com/
Contributor:
http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/
Lay Association:
http://www.militiatempli.net/

JeanVianney

Quote from: 2Towers on September 08, 2019, 06:18:48 PM
The only Latin Mass in Metro Atlanta is about thirty minutes away.  I have never been to one.  I hate to leave my home Church but I am giving it some thought.  Am I over reacting?  Do they get into hand holding and pass the peace in the Latin mass?
Sir I have to travel over 2 hours then I have to wait for the beginning of the Mass 7 hours and after the mass I have to wait 2 hours for the train then I move to another city, where I wait over hour for bus to my homecity. But it is worth of it. The fruits of tridentine mass are enormous in my life.I recomend you to attend the only true mass the tridentine mass The novus ordo remebers me of my former status of being Lutheran. No more Novusordo for me
Domine non sum dignus
Christus vincit Christus regnat Christus imperat
Salus animarum suprema lex
Professio fidei tridentina
Sacrorum Antistitum

orate

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on October 07, 2019, 09:06:45 AM


You and Saint Theophan the Recluse think that babies and toddlers should attend Mass. The Church thinks differently....



Are you sure?  The Church thinks differently is just your OPINION.  The Church does not require infants and toddler to attend Mass.  Not requiring them to attend is NOT the same as thinking that they should not be there.

Please show us Church documents to back up your assertion that Holy Mother the Church thinks that infants and toddlers should not attend Mass, and that it is not efficacious for them to do so.

While you are at it, show us any Church teaching that says that parent's who are minding their children, of any age, receive less Grace when assisting at Mass than one who is blessed to be able to concentrate fully.

I am not saying that screaming children should not be removed from Mass, or that peace shattering noise is acceptable, only that it is efficacious for all Catholics of any age to be allowed to assist at Mass. Show me any Church document to the contrary.
I love Thee, Jesus, my love.  Grant me the grace to love Thee always, and do with me what Thou wilt.

"Blame yourself, then change yourself.  That's where we all need to start."   Dr. Louis IX (aka "Dr. Walty")

MundaCorMeum

#326
Quote from: dellery on October 06, 2019, 06:02:53 PM
Quote from: MundaCorMeum on October 06, 2019, 05:44:56 PM
QuoteIdon't think bringing them along because you have no other option makes you a child-centred feminist, at all.  And neither do I believe Awkward ever presented such a case.

Actually, that is exactly what she said, word for word.  Please see post #209.  That's where I got the idea from.

I'm pretty sure she was referring to the way she's being treated/argued against, by those holding a different opinion.
That's the way it appears to me at least.
Because I too have seen very uncharitable, and cringeworthy, behavior directed toward her, that definitely can be considered effeminate and catty. For example, people (not you) basically accusing her of being a crazy cat lady type of person because she doesn't want to be distracted by screaming children while she's trying to adore God. There's also some virtue signaling going on here too, by which posters tell everybody how much better they are than everybody else because screaming children dont bother them, which is also pretty effeminate. The aforementioned antics are what drew me in to replying here, because the virtue signaling and downright bullying was too much to ignore.

To be honest, lack of charity and compassion has been displayed on both sides.  So has the misrepresentation of views and the accusation of ulterior motives.  It cuts both ways, so both sides should be defended on that account.  Of course, this does not make it right, for either side, to behave that way, and it certainly doesn't make for a very fruitful discussion about what is objectively true about younger children at Mass and parents Mass obligations. However, it is obviously a hot button topic that causes emotions to get heated (again this applies to both camps). I certainly understand why everyone is frustrated.  But, objectively, I don't think that we can honestly say that bringing children (of any age) to Mass is inherently wrong, nor that it will inevitably cause noise and shrieking.  Many of us have given anecdotes to show that, yes, even babies and toddlers can be quiet for the duration of Mass.  Yet, awkward keeps insisting that it is impossible.  I've asked before, if the babies and toddlers are quiet, what is the problem with them being there?

I personally think that people are allowed a difference of opinion on this issue.  It's ok if one prefers younger children to not be at Mass.
But, it's also ok if they are there, provided they are quiet, or the parents step out of they are not.  That document from the 3rd century that states young mothers with children should stand apart (like in the back or another room - say, a crying room), is exactly what many mothers with younger children do.  So, I don't see the issue with it.  If slight adult noises, such as sneezing and the like is not a violation to silence and recollection at Mass, then I don't see how slight baby sounds are, either.  Screams and cries, yes; but small sounds, no. 

Also, I realize this was not one of your arguments, dellery,  but I did want to answer akward's question about having Mom and Dad swap weekends for watching the little ones, once the baby turns two.  First of all, she said asked if it's that difficult for Dad to watch a two year old for an hour or two.  No, it isn't.  However, for many, it's not just 1 or 2 hours....it's more like 4-6, round trip, including driving time.   I'm genuinely not convinced that a longer than average drive time abrogates one from Mass, under the current circumstances.  More than 2 hours, I would say it does.  Less than that, I think it just depends on the scenario and one should consult a priest before excusing himself from Mass.  I'm not trying to be obstinate on that, either.  I've seriously thought about it, and even prayed about it at Mass yesterday (quietly,I might add, with my 10, 8, 6, 5, and almost 3 year olds in the pew; plus other families' babies and toddlers in the church.... there was zero tantrums or shrieking).  Another point about Mom and Dad being unable to do alternating Masses is that typically, if a growing Catholic family is not contracepting or using NFP, then by the time one baby  makes it to 2, there is already another baby behind that one, so Mom would have to stay behind, anyway.  My personal experience is that since I had my first 15 years ago, I have always been pregnant, nursing, or both.  Many families I know have babies even closer to two years apart, so it would be impossible for Mom to ever go to Mass, if there is only one available.  It could certainly work for some families, but I wouldn't recommend doing that without speaking to a priest first. 

queen.saints

Quote from: nmoerbeek on October 07, 2019, 09:19:15 AM


I am certain of the point that a shrieking infant does not diminish the grace of a Mass.



This Sunday a Dominican monk gave an excellent sermon about the importance of silence in the spiritual life and how the Low Mass fits into this. He had a quote from St. Thomas that said that silence is not the absence of noise, but the absence of noise leads to silence and is a necessary element of it. He said when we attend Mass we are supposed to be leaving one world and inhabiting another- God's world. He said we develop silence by practicing it and this is why the Church provides us with the Low Mass, in which there are long stretches of silence.


A shrieking child does not diminish the grace present in God's world at the Mass, but it does inhibit our ability to enter that world and benefit from those graces.
I am sorry for the times I have publicly criticized others on this forum, especially traditional Catholic religious, and any other scandalous posts and pray that no one reads or believes these false and ignorant statements.

Miriam_M

Quote from: coffeeandcigarette on October 07, 2019, 06:00:19 AM
Also, anytime there was only one mass you had this same situation no matter how much family was around. No mother would want her sister/aunt/mother/friend missing Holy Mass, everyone has a Sunday obligation.

I mostly bowed out of the contention many posts ago  :) .
However, I just want to point out, as the mother of a former restless/noisy/headstrong toddler attending Mass, that when a parent considerately brings said young child out of the nave, that parent is, in substance and involuntarily, missing Mass.

I say this because I remember having to do this and feeling guilty about resenting what I was missing, including if it was "just" the homily.

Again, if there is more than one TLM in a location, parents can tag-team it, which was always my preference, when possible.  In my current location, there are at least 5 Sunday TLM's within an hour's (or less) driving distance, so today it would have been possible to split the parental responsibilities and enjoy freedom from childcare during Mass.  But this is not the norm for others, I realize.

Miriam_M

...adding that, in the spirit of constructive suggestions that I made pages ago but was criticized for it, I think that one of the best steps parents can take -- when this is viable -- is to suggest to the TLM celebrant that an early morning Mass (if only one TLM can be offered) would do wonders for calming children.  If the suggestion comes from parents of young children it will not be viewed as a complaint but as a plea.  No later than an 8:30 start, preferably earlier. And obviously that probably only works if the drive is an hour or less.

Choices are not always possible, depending on the situation, especially if it's a diocesan indult Mass working around a fixed N.O. schedule, etc.  But there are a number of stand-alone TLM's on Sundays when a priest does have an option, even if he's traveling to the location.  That's true in my location, perhaps in some of yours, too.