Adoption vs single motherhood

[james03]

Again Jayne, you are grasping at straws.  Where have I advocated the priest not consider the circumstances?

If the kid will be raised by grandfather, then it might be ok.  However, how much of a role is a 50 year old man going to play in raising an infant?  60 year old man?

I'm late 40s and I'm glad my youngest son is a teenager.  I don't have the energy anymore than when I was in my 20s and 30s.  It is highly likely that grandpa will not provide any discipline in this situation.  And that's assuming the girl will be living with her parents and grandpa will be there.

So Jayne, young harlot won't be living with parents, and kid will be warehoused in strangercare.  Do you agree the priest should advocate giving up the baby for adoption to Catholic parents?

[Arun]

I think that the order of ideal parenting arrangements goes like this (assuming that issues of abuse, neglect, etc. are absent in all cases and that physical, material, spiritual, etc. needs will be met):

intact biological family
biological mother or father
adoptive parents

Uh, what was that you were saying Jayne?

This is not a statement that fatherhood is optional (nor that motherhood is optional).  It is the position that the benefit of the biological bond between parent (of either sex) and child outweighs the benefit of having two parents.  I am not sure if this position is correct, but I do not think it is accurate to claim that it is the equivalent of saying that fatherhood is optional.

exactly, there is an inherent and innate biological bond that can never be replaced or substituted. if what james is advocating is so great, the so-called "stolen generation" in Australia - a majority of whom were placed in Catholic homes - would be model citizens, free of substance abuse issues and criminal tendencies. wanna guess how it turned out...?

[james03]

More insults to adoptive parents.  Fatherhood is not optional.

[Jayne]

Again Jayne, you are grasping at straws.  Where have I advocated the priest not consider the circumstances?

If the kid will be raised by grandfather, then it might be ok.  However, how much of a role is a 50 year old man going to play in raising an infant?  60 year old man?

I'm late 40s and I'm glad my youngest son is a teenager.  I don't have the energy anymore than when I was in my 20s and 30s.  It is highly likely that grandpa will not provide any discipline in this situation.  And that's assuming the girl will be living with her parents and grandpa will be there.

So Jayne, young harlot won't be living with parents, and kid will be warehoused in strangercare.  Do you agree the priest should advocate giving up the baby for adoption to Catholic parents?

Some years ago our teenage daughter became pregnant, kept the baby, and lived with us.  My husband was in his 50s and was still a good father figure for our grandchild. After a few years, my daughter married a man who became a father to her child. At no time has my grandson been in daycare or a burden on the state. I am not very comfortable with people referring to my daughter as a "young harlot".

I daresay that there are situations in which the priest ought to advise a woman to give her child for adoption.  I would expect a good priest to be able to recognize these situations.   

[Arun]

More insults to adoptive parents.  Fatherhood is not optional.

who is saying it was? who is insulting adoptive parents?

[Jayne]

When you think of single mothers, do you imagine:

The third option: Thank God she didn't succumb to the immense pressure to kill it before it was born.

"Not a murderer" is such a low standard that most inmates would fit within it.

Resisting the temptation to murder when most people are telling you it is the right thing to do and it is perfectly legal is more than "not a murderer".

[Jayne]

It is very hard for me to understand how anyone who has held their newborn baby in their arms can be so cold towards the bond of a mother and infant.

A typical difference between men and women is that men are more focused on principles while women are more focused on relationships.  James is approaching the issue from the perspective of considering general principles.  You are thinking about relationships.

I know plenty of men who can speak with a little more compassion...

Focusing on principles is another form of compassion, one that may be difficult for you to recognize.

[OCLittleFlower]

I think that the order of ideal parenting arrangements goes like this (assuming that issues of abuse, neglect, etc. are absent in all cases and that physical, material, spiritual, etc. needs will be met):

intact biological family
biological mother or father
adoptive parents

Uh, what was that you were saying Jayne?

This is not a statement that fatherhood is optional (nor that motherhood is optional).  It is the position that the benefit of the biological bond between parent (of either sex) and child outweighs the benefit of having two parents.  I am not sure if this position is correct, but I do not think it is accurate to claim that it is the equivalent of saying that fatherhood is optional.

It is, in a way -- because, in choosing between an unwed mother and an adoptive couple, either a father is optional or biology is optional.  I believe that biology is optional, that a father's DNA matters less than his character and presence in a child's life, including a stable marriage to the child's mother.

[james03]

I daresay that there are situations in which the priest ought to advise a woman to give her child for adoption.  I would expect a good priest to be able to recognize these situations.   

Thank you.  Took long enough for you to agree to what is common sense.

I am not very comfortable with people referring to my daughter as a "young harlot".

One of the problems in the Church and society is people taking advantage of the mercy of Christians.  It's the "church of nice" that causes problems.

Good Catholics will not refer to your daughter as a fornicating harlot in person.  That includes me, in my personal life I'm the type to take a poor fatherless boy out fishing with my boys to help out.  But this mercy should not be abused.  Your daughter was a fornicator and screwed up.  Just because merciful Catholics don't go around pointing it out, you should not advocate fornication as acceptable, or refuse to condemn it, which itself is the sin of omission. 

Again, allowing mercy to be taken advantage of is part of the fall of Christendom.

[james03]

who is saying it was? who is insulting adoptive parents?

You.

exactly, there is an inherent and innate biological bond that can never be replaced or substituted.

So the love of OC for her kids can never substitute for the love of a biological mother?  Bull.

[Jayne]

I think that the order of ideal parenting arrangements goes like this (assuming that issues of abuse, neglect, etc. are absent in all cases and that physical, material, spiritual, etc. needs will be met):

intact biological family
biological mother or father
adoptive parents

Uh, what was that you were saying Jayne?

This is not a statement that fatherhood is optional (nor that motherhood is optional).  It is the position that the benefit of the biological bond between parent (of either sex) and child outweighs the benefit of having two parents.  I am not sure if this position is correct, but I do not think it is accurate to claim that it is the equivalent of saying that fatherhood is optional.

It is, in a way -- because, in choosing between an unwed mother and an adoptive couple, either a father is optional or biology is optional.  I believe that biology is optional, that a father's DNA matters less than his character and presence in a child's life, including a stable marriage to the child's mother.

If these are two things that people choose between then both are optional.  Or, if we are talking about the ideal, then neither is optional.

It makes no sense to me to say that one must always choose a father or to say that one must always choose biology.  Both are very important and there are other factors to consider.  The least bad choice will vary case by case. 

[Jayne]

I am not very comfortable with people referring to my daughter as a "young harlot".

One of the problems in the Church and society is people taking advantage of the mercy of Christians.  It's the "church of nice" that causes problems.

Good Catholics will not refer to your daughter as a fornicating harlot in person.  That includes me, in my personal life I'm the type to take a poor fatherless boy out fishing with my boys to help out.  But this mercy should not be abused.  Your daughter was a fornicator and screwed up.  Just because merciful Catholics don't go around pointing it out, you should not advocate fornication as acceptable, or refuse to condemn it, which itself is the sin of omission. 

Again, allowing mercy to be taken advantage of is part of the fall of Christendom.

There are women reading this thread, including myself, who sinned against chastity at some point in our lives.  You are, in effect, calling all of us "fornicating harlots."  I do not think it is an abuse of mercy to ask that you refrain from doing this.

Fornication is not acceptable.  It ought to be condemned as the serious sin that it is.  Those of us who have been guilty of it probably know this better than anybody.

[Bernadette]

Posted by: OCLittleFlower:

I've seen plenty of older couples work themselves to the bone, watching grandkids and such for children who had unwed pregnancies.  It's very hard on them, and they often feel they have no choice -- again, it's a selfish choice on the parent of the biological parents, much of the time.  Sure, they *feel* they have a bond and that they love the kid more than anyone else does -- but is that *really* true?  If it were, why not seek out a better situation for their child?

As someone whose most stable home environment has been with family members other than my (married-at-the-time) parents, I can say with some conviction that there are families who believe that the kind of help described above is just what families do for each other. It's the family's job to step up if need be, before the kid goes to strangers. Because it's their flesh and blood on the line, just as much as it would be if the child's parents were married. I spent a good deal of my life between the ages of two and six with my grandma, who watched me while my parents worked. As a result, I had a much stronger bond with her than either of my older siblings, who were already in school. And when she got sick last year and needed round-the-clock care, I thanked God that I was able to care for her, partly because I remembered how she had cared for me when I was little. She had no good words for my mother, btw. But she loved me, because I was her granddaughter. And when my parents' marriage imploded, and both of their homes were unfit for me, my aunt and uncle stepped up. As a result, I feel for them what most people feel for their parents. They never grudged it.   

[Arun]

who is saying it was? who is insulting adoptive parents?

You.

exactly, there is an inherent and innate biological bond that can never be replaced or substituted.

So the love of OC for her kids can never substitute for the love of a biological mother?  Bull.

that's not an insult; it's statement of fact. don't get your knickers in a twist, son.

nobody is saying she does not love those children or that they do not love her. it doesn't change the fact that there is an innate and inherent biological bond between mother and child which comes, in part, from having carried the child in the womb.

there is also a bonding experience/process which occurs through mothers nursing, and strengthens that already existing bond, which we see commonly refernced in pro-breastfeeding arguments all the time. these things are simple, biological facts. don't shoot the messenger son.

[Ava]

Fatherhood is extremely important, but it is illogical to suggest that if a father cannot be present (death, abandonment, whatever) the child is always better off being placed for adoption.

If my husband passed away or abandoned me (both real possibilities) I would not place my children for adoption.  Nor do I believe God would expect me to do that. 

Now, with an unwed mother, adoption may very well be the best choice, but even then, it is not a given.  Unwed mothers are called to marriage, even if it cannot be to the baby's biological father.