Why not hedonism?

[Daniel]

If, as many Catholic theologians seem to hold, God "does not command us to do the impossible", then why should I, who do not know whether or not the Catholic Church has any sort of God-given legal authority, continue obeying the Catholic Church? And why should I, who have no idea whether or not baptism is real, continue calling myself a 'Christian'?

God's laws are secret and hidden. The Catholic Church, however, claims to possess knowledge of God's laws and further claims to have authority to make additional laws. Yet many other religions and secular governments make similar claims. Since I personally don't have the knowledge, I personally am in no position to judge any of these religions and determine which one, if any, is correct.

Nevertheless, Catholic theologians hold that "every baptized person is bound to obey the Catholic Church's laws and to believe in the Catholic Church's dogmas" while simultaneously holding the contradictory claim that "nobody is bound to obey God's laws when it is impossible to do so".

edit - I suppose it isn't strictly 'impossible' to obey God by means of obeying the Catholic Church, since it's possible that the Catholic Church is right. But then again, any one of the other religions might be right. And this leads to absurdities...
You end up with people who try to practice all of the religions hoping to "get lucky"--a practice which Catholic theologians would condemn as 'superstitious'.
And then you end up with other people who blindly pick and choose one religion and follow it, also hoping to "get lucky".
The latter seems just about as absurd as the former.
And it raises the question: When is faithless irrational belief ever a good thing? Even if you happen to get lucky, it seems what you're actually doing is not much more than gambling. Not obeying God's rules qua God's rules.

[Xavier]

If, as many Catholic theologians seem to hold, God "does not command us to do the impossible", then why should I, who do not know whether or not the Catholic Church has any sort of God-given legal authority, continue obeying the Catholic Church?

Why don't you know? You can know if you want to know. No? You will not know if you do not want to know.

God's laws are secret and hidden.

Not at all. His Commandments are crystal clear in the Decalogue, and the natural law is known through conscience to all who seek Truth.

Mat 19:17 ...But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

And since you are baptized, you should confess your sins if you have lapsed from the Faith, be restored to grace, and led by the Spirit.

1 Jn 3:23 And this is His commandment, that we should believe in the Name of His Son Jesus Christ: and love one another, as He hath given commandment unto us. 24 And he that keepeth His commandments, abideth in Him, and He in him. And in this we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.

Since I personally don't have the knowledge

Please read this to see some of the great things Jesus has done in the history of His Church, which could help you, if you are really willing and desirous to acquire that salvific knowledge: "The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.

These analyses sustained the following conclusions: The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood. The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species ... (see the link for more)" http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

And Fr. Michael Mueller, as posted in another thread, documents umpteen other well-documented Eucharistic Miracles. Atheistic scientists have converted upon seeing these.

To know and believe in the Name of Jesus Christ as Our Lord and God, as our King and Saviour, is necessary for salvation. Then, we obey His commandments made known by His Word and His Church, to grow in grace, and inherit eternal life, especially through His Sacraments, especially that Blessed Sacrament of Infinite Love, the Eucharist.

Nevertheless, Catholic theologians hold that "every baptized person is bound to obey the Catholic Church's laws and to believe in the Catholic Church's dogmas" while simultaneously holding the contradictory claim that "nobody is bound to obey God's laws when it is impossible to do so".

The two propositions are not contradictory. The erroneous proposition "nobody can know the Church's laws are God's laws" or "it is impossible to know the Church's laws" or some such form of self-defeating agnosticism which you introduced to go from one to the other is false. It's not just possible but easy for you to go to Church, make a good confession, and begin to embrace the Faith firmly. Come off this, Daniel, come back to a right and holy life in the Church, growing in grace and union with Christ. Jesus loves you and wants you to have Eternal Life and perfect happiness forever with Him.

[Daniel]

If, as many Catholic theologians seem to hold, God "does not command us to do the impossible", then why should I, who do not know whether or not the Catholic Church has any sort of God-given legal authority, continue obeying the Catholic Church?

Why don't you know? You can know if you want to know. No? You will not know if you do not want to know.

It can't be known. Even the Catholic Church doesn't claim to have any external proofs of its own authority. The Catholic Church merely says that people who have faith know "the Church has authority" and "the Catholic Church is the Church" to be true propositions and that people without faith don't know this and can't know this.

God's laws are secret and hidden.

Not at all. His Commandments are crystal clear in the Decalogue, and the natural law is known through conscience to all who seek Truth.

This is assuming that the Decalogue came from God. But I don't know whether or not it did. For all I know, somebody may have made it all up and then attributed it to God.
As for the theory of natural law, that's a philosophical principle/hypothesis. Not something which any faithless man knows for sure. Maybe there is no such thing as a 'natural law'. Maybe divine command theory is right, or maybe God is a utilitarian. I have no idea.

Since I personally don't have the knowledge

Please read this to see some of the great things Jesus has done in the history of His Church, which could help you, if you are really willing and desirous to acquire that salvific knowledge: "The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.

These analyses sustained the following conclusions: The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood. The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species ... (see the link for more)" http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

And Fr. Michael Mueller, as posted in another thread, documents umpteen other well-documented Eucharistic Miracles. Atheistic scientists have converted upon seeing these.

I'll read it over, but I don't see how 'miracles' can qualify as a source of true knowledge. Nobody, not even the expert scientist, is in the position judge whether or not these 'happenings' actually happened, and, if they happened, whether or not they're really miracles (as opposed to natural occurrences and/or deliberate fraud). Science doesn't know everything, so even if 100% of all scientists agreed that this cannot be explained by science, then that doesn't mean it's a 'miracle'... it just means it's unexplainable.

[St. Columba]

Daniel, I have the highest respect for you.  You are clearly trying to do the right thing. 

If Catholicism is true, and yet, you believed, in your heart of hearts, that it would be irrational to practice the faith whilst not having certainty, then you are listening to and obeying your conscience.  At worst, you will not be damned, since you (a) do not have knowledge that what you are doing is sinful, and (b) you are invincibly ignorant.  At best, God will crown you with many crowns, and give you the grace of salvation, since (a) you were validly baptized and (b) have committed no mortal sin by not practicing the faith, since you do not have knowledge of the sinfulness of not practicing the faith under the circumstances you find yourself in.  Besides, you have the ardent desire for truth. 

All of this hinges on absolute certainty.  Does the natural law prohibit the practice of a faith unless, and until, one is absolutely certain of it's veracity?  I don't know, to be honest.

I can totally relate to your predicament Daniel.  I consider you the most honest person on this forum (not to mention abundant humility and intelligence).  I cannot fathom, for the life of me, how God could possibly reject someone who so much wants to please Him and do what is right.  I HIGHLY suspect that God will grant you one of the highest places in Heaven, after He reveals His truth to you.

Be at peace friend. 

You are in my lowly prayers.

[Xavier]

Dear Daniel, you have embraced a dogmatic agnosticism that holds all knowledge to be near-impossible to obtain. This worldview keeps you from coming to know and experience the Love that God has for you, especially in His Sacrament of Love. He calls you to come back into His loving arms today, trusting Him to reveal Himself to you.

It can't be known. Even the Catholic Church doesn't claim to have any external proofs of its own authority.

Not at all. See Vatican I, "In order that the submission of our faith should be in accordance with reason, it was God's will that there should be linked to the internal assistance of the Holy Spirit external indications of his revelation, that is to say divine acts, and first and foremost miracles and prophecies, which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are the most certain signs of revelation and are suited to the understanding of all. Hence Moses and the Prophets, and especially Christ our Lord himself, worked many absolutely clear miracles and delivered prophecies". And Pope St. Pius X's Oath against Modernism, "the external proofs of revelation, that is, divine acts and especially miracles and prophecies as the surest signs of the divine origin of the Christian religion and ... these same proofs are well adapted to the understanding of all eras and all men, even of this time. Thirdly ... the Church, the guardian and teacher of the revealed word, was personally instituted by the real and historical Christ when he lived among us, and that the Church was built upon Peter, the prince of the apostolic hierarchy, and his successors for the duration of time." Pope Leo XIII's Encyclical on Christian Philosophy sums it up, "In the first place, then, this great and noble fruit is gathered from human reason, that it demonstrates that God is; for the greatness of the beauty and of the creature the Creator of them may be seen so as to be known thereby.(17) Again, it shows God to excel in the height of all perfections, especially in infinite wisdom before which nothing lies hidden, and in absolute justice which no depraved affection could possibly shake; and that God, therefore, is not only true but Truth itself, Who can neither deceive nor be deceived. Whence it clearly follows that human reason finds the fullest faith and authority united in the word of God. In like manner, reason declares that the doctrine of the Gospel has even from its very beginning been made manifest by certain wonderful signs, the established proofs, as it were, of unshaken truth; and that all, therefore, who set faith in the Gospel do not believe rashly as though following cunningly devised fables,(18) but, by a most reasonable consent, subject their intelligence and judgment to an authority which is divine." So She most certainly teaches there are external proofs. You can find all these online for further reading if you wish.

The Catholic Church merely says that people who have faith know "the Church has authority" and "the Catholic Church is the Church" to be true propositions and that people without faith don't know this and can't know this.

This is an erroneous proposition called "fideism". the Church rejects it, and the harm it has already caused to your own Faith shows why.

I'll read it over, but I don't see how 'miracles' can qualify as a source of true knowledge. Nobody, not even the expert scientist, is in the position judge whether or not these 'happenings' actually happened, and, if they happened, whether or not they're really miracles (as opposed to natural occurrences and/or deliberate fraud). Science doesn't know everything, so even if 100% of all scientists agreed that this cannot be explained by science

It is just one of the countless miracles that Jesus Christ the Lord Our God has worked over the history of His Church, as He did in Israel for the Patriarchs and Prophets. The scientifically documented Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano shows any sincere observer, with safe-to-act-upon moral certainty, that the God Who did these things is Powerful beyond our imagination. If only you would regularly communicate with Him in the Blessed Sacrament, you would know that limitless Power and Infinite Love also by spiritual experience, as Fr. Mueller says. Please continue to pray, read and study. You can find numerous other miracles posted in the Real Presence Thread. We will be praying for you, dear Daniel. God bless.

Edit: The world tells us it is charity to be indifferent about whether or not others believe in, know or experience God's Love for them. But Jesus assures us charity desires for all others all that we desire for our own selves; yea, to desire more for others than for us, as Jesus showed us Himself. St. Thomas says when a person participates in Mass reverently and receives Holy Communion devoutly, it profits him as much and he merits to an even greater extent than as if he himself really, in an excess of supreme love, died and laid down his life in martyrdom for God and for his neighbor! God has already done the hard part Himself - He does not ask us to die on a Cross for love of God and us as He did, to carry it perfectly and in the midst of inconceivable sufferings and sorrows!! No, all He asks us is the simple and easy thing of going regularly to Confession, spending time in prayer, especially praying the Rosary, and regularly coming to Holy Mass to spend time in His Presence and benefit from Holy Communion.

[Non Nobis]

Daniel, I have the highest respect for you.  You are clearly trying to do the right thing. 

If Catholicism is true, and yet, you believed, in your heart of hearts, that it would be irrational to practice the faith whilst not having certainty, then you are listening to and obeying your conscience.  At worst, you will not be damned, since you (a) do not have knowledge that what you are doing is sinful, and (b) you are invincibly ignorant.  At best, God will crown you with many crowns, and give you the grace of salvation, since (a) you were validly baptized and (b) have committed no mortal sin by not practicing the faith, since you do not have knowledge of the sinfulness of not practicing the faith under the circumstances you find yourself in.  Besides, you have the ardent desire for truth. 

All of this hinges on absolute certainty.  Does the natural law prohibit the practice of a faith unless, and until, one is absolutely certain of it's veracity?  I don't know, to be honest.

I can totally relate to your predicament Daniel.  I consider you the most honest person on this forum (not to mention abundant humility and intelligence).  I cannot fathom, for the life of me, how God could possibly reject someone who so much wants to please Him and do what is right.  I HIGHLY suspect that God will grant you one of the highest places in Heaven, after He reveals His truth to you.

Be at peace friend. 

You are in my lowly prayers.

St. Columba and Daniel,

I don't think that honest and sincere agnosticism is admirable. The honest and sincere part may get you a high place in heaven if God knows you are just confused; but God means truth to be knowable and His Church to be believed.  What a pity it is to be unable to accept this in your life.

Cardinal Newman (soon to be canonized) said that "ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt". The fact that you have many difficulties does not make it immoral to believe: humbly accept the fact that you will not have all the answers in your life. Who do you think you need to be, the greatest theologian (with insight into God's mysteries)? God gave you faith (not knowledge) when you were baptized;  PRAY that He may strengthen it.  That is the most important thing, that is what may be missing.

Whatever you think about these things, PRAY.

[St. Columba]

Following one's conscience, after one has painstakingly searched for what is true, is still a solemn duty, even if it is materially erroneous.

Aquinas (SUMMA - Part II: Part 1, Question 19, Article 5):

For in matters of indifference, the will that is at variance with erring reason or conscience, is evil in some way on account of the object, on which the goodness or malice of the will depends; not indeed on account of the object according as it is in its own nature; but according as it is accidentally apprehended by reason as something evil to do or to avoid. And since the object of the will is that which is proposed by the reason, as stated above (3), from the very fact that a thing is proposed by the reason as being evil, the will by tending thereto becomes evil. And this is the case not only in indifferent matters, but also in those that are good or evil in themselves. For not only indifferent matters can received the character of goodness or malice accidentally; but also that which is good, can receive the character of evil, or that which is evil, can receive the character of goodness, on account of the reason apprehending it as such. For instance, to refrain from fornication is good: yet the will does not tend to this good except in so far as it is proposed by the reason. If, therefore, the erring reason propose it as an evil, the will tends to it as to something evil. Consequently the will is evil, because it wills evil, not indeed that which is evil in itself, but that which is evil accidentally, through being apprehended as such by the reason. In like manner, to believe in Christ is good in itself, and necessary for salvation: but the will does not tend thereto, except inasmuch as it is proposed by the reason. Consequently if it be proposed by the reason as something evil, the will tends to it as to something evil: not as if it were evil in itself, but because it is evil accidentally, through the apprehension of the reason. Hence the  Philosopher says (Ethic. vii, 9) that "properly speaking the incontinent man is one who does not follow right reason; but accidentally, he is also one who does not follow false reason."  We must therefore conclude that, absolutely speaking, every will at variance with reason, whether right or erring, is always evil.

[Daniel]

I'm not sure whether what St. Thomas is saying here can be applied to situations like mine. Because St. Thomas is speaking of situations in which you wrongly believe something to be evil, and you do it anyway. In my case, however, I don't believe that it's wrong to obey the Catholic Church. My concern is that I have no idea whether it's right or wrong. If I do it anyway, I am not doing something which I believe is wrong... I am doing something which I believe might be wrong. Still, there is the point which St. Columba raised, about whether or not it is morally permissible to do something which you believe might be wrong. I, too, have no idea.

My other concern is less 'admirable' but nevertheless a constant irritation in my mind, especially on Sundays: Since the Catholic Church commands me to do all sorts of stuff which hurts me in one way or another, and since for all I know there might not be anything wrong with disobeying the Church, then what I am wondering is, why should I obey the Catholic Church? If I knew that the Catholic Church is in fact God's true spokesman, then I would gladly obey the Catholic Church without question. But I don't know that much.

[Michael Wilson]

Daniel stated:

Since the Catholic Church commands me to do all sorts of stuff which hurts me in one way or another,..

What sort of things does the Church command you to do which is hurtful?

[james03]

As I understand it, the Church condemns hedonism on the grounds that hedonism does not lead to salvation.

But what about those of us who probably won't be saved anyway? Seeing as there is no road to salvation for us (the reprobate), and seeing as our damnation--if God wills it--is inevitable, why should we not spend our short lives doing whatever we want?

Your question is strange.  To ask this question shows a Faith in God.  It is very likely that the majority of Catholics go to heaven, at least it is a sane belief for one to place Hope in.  So I don't get the "probably won't be saved" part.  If I remember correctly, you are the dude with scruples.  You really need to get that fixed dude.

But if we look at it from the point of view of the heathen, then at first glance hedonism is rational.  If you want to rape a little girl, and you can get away with it, you should do it.

Interestingly in the heathen "manosphere", they have ended up rejecting hedonism (which was their original stance) and now the prevailing philosophy is "being the best version of yourself", which can be translated to "live a life of Catholic Virtue".  I always like viewing empirical proof of God's existence among the heathen.

Of course this leads one down a dangerous path: Why not rape a little girl (if you can get away with it)?  What is evil?  Why has rampant hedonism led to unhappiness?  At the end you find God if you keep going down that road.

[james03]

Even the Catholic Church doesn't claim to have any external proofs of its own authority.

Depends on what you mean by "eternal proofs".  You don't have an "external proof" that you existed 1 second ago.

But proofs exist.  The fact that the whole Christian world accepts the Catholic compiled New Testament is one such proof.

[TheReturnofLive]

Even the Catholic Church doesn't claim to have any external proofs of its own authority.

But proofs exist.  The fact that the whole Christian world accepts the Catholic compiled New Testament is one such proof.

The problem there is you have four claimants to who actually compiled the New Testament: Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and The Assyrian Church of the East.

And considering that the New Testament was compiled at several different local Church Councils, in Hippo, in Rome, and in the Byzantine Empire, along with the fact that the one compiled at Rome is not actually the same Canon used today (the Roman list left out Hebrews, believing it to not be canonical / spurious due to some of the mystical elements of it), makes it harder to claim that the New Testament is a product of the Roman Catholic Church.

[TheReturnofLive]

Also, the Ethiopian Bible has 8 extra books in the New Testament so the claim that the whole Christian world uses the same New Testament Canon is false.

https://www.ethiopianorthodox.org/english/canonical/books.html

[Daniel]

What sort of things does the Church command you to do which is hurtful?

1. The law obliging me to physically attend Mass on Sundays, which causes me to suffer hatred and sadness and, at times, the desire for suicide.
2. The teaching forbidding me from engaging in commerce and servile labor on Sundays, which completely disrupts my workflow and my enjoyment and my life in general. (Further, if this teaching is wrong and if God actually forbids work on Saturday rather than Sunday, then this teaching is indirectly causing me to sin against the sabbath. Because naturally if I can't do stuff on Sunday then I do it on Saturday instead.)
3. The teaching preventing me from getting married. I am now in my thirties and would like to get married but cannot because the Catholic Church says it would be a sacrilege. If the Catholic Church is wrong, then I'm going to be unmarried for my entire life for no reason at all. Not to mention that my family's bloodline will die out since I am the only male this generation.
4. The law that says we must give money to the Catholic Church. I've been setting the money aside in a locked box in my closet, but it's a considerable amount of money, and I don't have a lot of money, so I'm not about to give it to the Catholic Church or to anyone else until I know for sure that I have to.
5. The teaching that says that we must assent to Catholicism and that we must reject all of the explicitly non-Catholic religious and philosophical views. (I pretty much disregard this teaching since it is impossible for me to follow it without turning my back on Truth.)

Things would be a whole lot easier if I didn't have to obey these sorts of things. And for all I know, maybe I don't have to obey any of it. Nevertheless, I cannot disprove the Catholic Church's authority, and to disobey the Catholic Church without proof would probably be rash.
If, however, I knew that the Catholic Church's laws and teachings were in fact God's laws and teachings, then I would gladly do all of these things. Because I'd then be obeying God, and I'd know that what I am doing is not in vain.

Your question is strange.  To ask this question shows a Faith in God.  It is very likely that the majority of Catholics go to heaven, at least it is a sane belief for one to place Hope in.  So I don't get the "probably won't be saved" part.  If I remember correctly, you are the dude with scruples.  You really need to get that fixed dude.

Well my views have probably changed somewhat since I posted that. But if I recall, I think what I meant was that my experience has led me to believe that God probably isn't going to save me. Or, if things continue as they are now, then God isn't going to save me. I guess I'll rephrase that: God might save me, or God might not save me, and there's nothing I can do but to accept my fate. And, in the meantime, I can live my life only in darkness, completely blind to the moral law (which I suspect is something knowable only through revelation and faith, not through reason).

Depends on what you mean by "external proofs".  You don't have an "external proof" that you existed 1 second ago.

Well, I believe that I existed 1 second ago, but I don't know that I existed 1 second ago. I admit that maybe I didn't exist 1 second ago.
This is unlike the faithful Catholics who (supposedly) know that the Catholic Church has authority. They deny the very possibility that the Catholic Church might not have authority.
The only way to know that the Catholic Church has authority, as far as I'm aware, is through 'faith'. If you have faith, you know that the Catholic Church has authority. If you don't have faith, you can't know that the Catholic Church has authority.

[TheReturnofLive]

But if I recall, I think what I meant was that my experience has led me to believe that God probably isn't going to save me. Or, if things continue as they are now, then God isn't going to save me. I guess I'll rephrase that: God might save me, or God might not save me, and there's nothing I can do but to accept my fate. And, in the meantime, I can live my life only in darkness, completely blind to the moral law (which I suspect is something knowable only through revelation and faith, not through reason).

The concepts of "God saving you" are concepts generally exclusive to Christianity and Islam, which implies a belief in either Christian or Islamic Monotheism, and from there, you just have to look at the claims of each of those religions to see if it makes logical sense.
There are a lot of denominations of Christianity, but you can group Evangelical Christianity / most of Protestant Christianity together insofar as they have shared concepts - Sola Scriptura, that Churches can be created from the Bible's authority, Sola Fida.

You also seem to forget that it's dogma in all of Christian and Islamic religions that God will judge the world in perfect justice. And it seems that those who have a greater grasp on the Truth will be judged more harshly than those who don't.
James 3:1.

And even then, wouldn't you generally agree that even in Pagan religions like Jainism, Hinduism, Taoism, Sikhism, Buddhism...ish if you consider that a "religion," etc., there's a certain level of morality and wisdom that the monasticism those religions promote has which is beneficial for one's soul than what pure atheism and hedonism is able to provide?

Again, while it isn't easy, I would say the typical Franciscan Friar of the Immaculate Conception has much more happiness than some hedonist like Seth Rogen.

Maybe you should visit a Traditional Monastery and talk to some monks to see what they see as valuable in life, and ask why they became monks.

I also personally recommend that you watch the film "The Island" - it's a fictional Russian Orthodox film about a modern day "Fool for Christ" (In Orthodoxy, this is a calling for some - it's a person who intentionally lives to a rule code of socially abnormal behavior in order to reveal the sins of others - in one scene, he faces the wrong way during Liturgy on purpose, which annoys a Pharisaical monk whose more focused on the behaviors of others than himself) - although I think one of the actors was so inspired by the production of the film and the Monastery that he became a monk.