Hit me with your best shot

[Xavier]

Did you watch Kreuz's Video? It was a response to him; he shared a video with the Title "Protestantism and Evangelicalism refuted" from an Orthodox perspective. Do you agree with Dyer on that? I think even you're not sure if you believe in Protestantism or not.

[John Lamb]

Even if I subscribed to the theories of sola scriptura, sola fide, symbolic Eucharist, etc., I still wouldn't leave the Catholic Church, or start my own.

Having your own understanding of the faith — that's called personal understanding.
Having an understanding of the faith that contradicts the declarations of popes, bishops, and councils — that's called going your own way.
But taking that private understanding of the faith, and making a grandstand of it, cutting yourself off from the Church and creating your own based on a mere theory — that's called stupidity.

Just stay in the Church, and express your opinion if you like. If it gets you excommunicated: that's no reason to go to a sect, anymore than your wife kicking you out of the house is a reason to go commit adultery. The main reason for being in the Catholic Church isn't that we've got the right understanding of the faith ("orthodoxy"), but that we are one as Christ prayed: "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." There's no oneness outside the Catholic Church. A simple layman with barely any theoretical understanding of the faith, even a materially heretical understanding, ambling up the nave to receive communion: he's in a more advantageous position, ecclesially, than a profoundly learned Anglican or Orthodox.

The Anglican sect was created by a fat tyrant called Henry, lol.

[Xavier]

Whenever we fall into formal heresy, the virtue of faith is very greatly harmed - indeed, it is destroyed - in us; growth in grace becomes nearly impossible. Formal heretics hardly prayer and frequently prayer becomes repugnant to them. If we do not pray much, we cannot save our souls. One Sacrament well received frequently gives more grace than prayer alone, with culpable refusal of the Sacraments, also. Life is short and Eternity is Forever. This life was given us in order to store up Treasures in Heaven by Good Works done in Grace, as Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles so plainly and so repeatedly declare in the Sacred Scriptures. St. Montfort tells everyone, pray the entire Rosary every day unfailingly and you will never lose your Faith or become a formal heretic led astray by evil. The times are grave. They call for great men and great women of great Faith. Only then can good triumph over evil, Truth over error, and the Faith over heresy.

Pray always. Let the Sweet Names of Jesus and Mary at least be always on your lips, and in your hearts. Pray and tell them you love them and strive to love Them with all your heart. Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet or St. Gertrude Chaplet. Pray much, grow in Grace and then you will not fall into heresy or grave sin. Then you will more easily be saved and also attain to a rich reward in Heaven, as St. Peter teaches in the Bible. Prot King James Version.

2 Pet 1: 5 "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

Again this is not sola Fide. This is supernatural good works, works done in faith, being meritorious and gaining a reward in Heaven. See also 1 Cor 3:13-15, which teaches the same doctrine, and also teaches Purgatory. If we do not pray and labor much, that will be our lot.

[Vetus Ordo]

The Anglican sect was created by a fat tyrant called Henry, lol.

Henry VIII was actually one of the most cultivated monarchs of his age. He was also very athletic during most of his life time, having won many tournaments. Again, the use of the words "fat tyrant" here is completely loaded.

Furthermore, the Anglican Church wasn't created by him. Henry died a Catholic in belief, although excommunicated because of schism. By the time of his death, they were still burning Protestant preachers at the stake. The definite Reformed nature of the Church in England was only established by his son, Edward, and above all by his daughter Elizabeth.

[John Lamb]

Xavier-

Again I respectfully request that you re-read my original post. I'm interested in resources I can reference which deal with the issues that raged during the 16th Century, in particular the 5 solas.

St. Francis de Sales, The Catholic Controversy
https://archive.org/details/catholiccontrove00sain/page/n5/mode/2up
https://www.tanbooks.com/catholic-controversy-a-defense-of-the-faith-4054.html

St. Robert Bellarmine, On the Marks of the Church
https://www.amazon.com/Marks-Church-Controversiis-Robert-Bellarmine-ebook/dp/B00SOZ3INE/ref=sr_1_10?dchild=1&keywords=robert+bellarmine&qid=1586368808&sr=8-10

St. Alphonsus Liguori, On the History of Heresies and their Refutation.
http://www.saintsbooks.net/books/St.%20Alphonsus%20Maria%20de%20Liguori%20-%20The%20History%20of%20Heresies%20and%20Their%20Refutation.pdf

[John Lamb]

The Anglican sect was created by a fat tyrant called Henry, lol.

Henry VIII was actually one of the most cultivated monarchs of his age. He was also very athletic during most of his life time, having won many tournaments. Again, the use of the words "fat tyrant" here is completely loaded.

Furthermore, the Anglican Church wasn't created by him. Henry died a Catholic in belief, although excommunicated because of schism. By the time of his death, they were still burning Protestant preachers at the stake. The definite Reformed nature of the Church in England was only established by his son, Edward, and above all by his daughter Elizabeth.

Sure, you're right. But you're forgetting to mention: Satan himself is an extremely cultivated monarch, and he often leaves his followers to carry out what he's put in motion. The Anglican sect was created because a fat tyrant called Henry wanted to get rid of his wife and marry a court floozy; and he left it to his descendants to justify his abominable and unchristian actions. Filthy in its conception.

[Vetus Ordo]

The Anglican sect was created by a fat tyrant called Henry, lol.

Henry VIII was actually one of the most cultivated monarchs of his age. He was also very athletic during most of his life time, having won many tournaments. Again, the use of the words "fat tyrant" here is completely loaded.

Furthermore, the Anglican Church wasn't created by him. Henry died a Catholic in belief, although excommunicated because of schism. By the time of his death, they were still burning Protestant preachers at the stake. The definite Reformed nature of the Church in England was only established by his son, Edward, and above all by his daughter Elizabeth.

Sure, you're right. But you're forgetting to mention: Satan himself is an extremely cultivated monarch, and he often leaves his followers to carry out what he's put in motion. The Anglican sect was created because a fat tyrant called Henry wanted to get rid of his wife and marry a court floozy; and he left it to his descendants to justify his abominable and unchristian actions. Filthy in its conception.

If new churches sprang up every time a European king divorced his wife, or every time a pope excommunicated a monarch or interdicted a nation, there would have been hundreds of splinter churches down through the ages. Things are more complex than that.

Your colorful rhetoric aside, Henry VIII didn't create any church, no matter how you want to spin it. The Protestant Reformation in England owes little to nothing to Henry VIII.

[Heinrich]

The Anglican sect was created by a fat tyrant called Henry, lol.

Henry VIII was actually one of the most cultivated monarchs of his age. He was also very athletic during most of his life time, having won many tournaments. Again, the use of the words "fat tyrant" here is completely loaded.

Furthermore, the Anglican Church wasn't created by him. Henry died a Catholic in belief, although excommunicated because of schism. By the time of his death, they were still burning Protestant preachers at the stake. The definite Reformed nature of the Church in England was only established by his son, Edward, and above all by his daughter Elizabeth.

Sure, you're right. But you're forgetting to mention: Satan himself is an extremely cultivated monarch, and he often leaves his followers to carry out what he's put in motion. The Anglican sect was created because a fat tyrant called Henry wanted to get rid of his wife and marry a court floozy; and he left it to his descendants to justify his abominable and unchristian actions. Filthy in its conception.

If new churches sprang up every time a European king divorced his wife, or every time a pope excommunicated a monarch or interdicted a nation, there would have been hundreds of splinter churches down through the ages. Things are more complex than that.

Your colorful rhetoric aside, Henry VIII didn't create any church, no matter how you want to spin it. The Protestant Reformation in England owes little to nothing to Henry VIII.

What about crummy Cromwell?

[Vetus Ordo]

What about crummy Cromwell?

Overrated.

[Heinrich]

So let me get this straight: you posit King Henry VIII and Cromwell were not major catalysts for the English style of "reformation"?

[Vetus Ordo]

I posit that the Reformed Church of England wasn't created by Henry VIII, which was John Lamb's claim.

It's an incorrect claim, albeit popular.

[Sempronius]

I posit that the Reformed Church of England wasn't created by Henry VIII, which was John Lamb's claim.

It's an incorrect claim, albeit popular.

It was with his money that they tried to win over the theologians in the universities around Europe to change their opinion of his divorce and oppose Rome.

[Vetus Ordo]

I posit that the Reformed Church of England wasn't created by Henry VIII, which was John Lamb's claim.

It's an incorrect claim, albeit popular.

It was with his money that they tried to win over the theologians in the universities around Europe to change their opinion of his divorce and oppose Rome.

Except that the lawfulness or unlawfulness of Henry's divorce from Catherine of Aragon had nothing to do with Protestant theology or with the establishment of the English Reformation. It was a political issue more than anything else, given that Catherine was Charles V's aunt.

Henry's church harbored known Protestant reformers, like Cranmer and Cromwell, but the Six Articles of 1539 that officially shaped the theology of the English church after the schism with Rome were largely a defeat for the nascent Protestant movement. The articles reaffirmed Holy Communion in one kind, compulsory clerical celibacy, vows of chastity and votive masses as acceptable by divine law. For instance, denial of the Real Presence was punished by burning at the stake without an opportunity to recant. Denial of any of the other articles was punished by hanging or life imprisonment.

[Kreuzritter]

For instance, denial of the Real Presence was punished by burning at the stake without an opportunity to recant. Denial of any of the other articles was punished by hanging or life imprisonment.

The good old days of legitimate secular authorities killing people for refusing a claim of faith and of legitimate ecclesiastical authorities condoning or even applauding it. But what else was there to do, right, than to obey and accept, lest the devils come one night and drag you and your family down into the bowels of hell. Who could stand between the people and the apocalypse but tonsured virgins and lecherous descendants of ancient warlords.

[Vetus Ordo]

For instance, denial of the Real Presence was punished by burning at the stake without an opportunity to recant. Denial of any of the other articles was punished by hanging or life imprisonment.

The good old days of legitimate secular authorities killing people for refusing a claim of faith and of legitimate ecclesiastical authorities condoning or even applauding it.

There is legal precedent for that in the Torah.