https://youtu.be/6WmpplCyKNc
This was great. I skimmed over the political stuff at the beginning, but I was drawn in once she started talking about becoming Catholic around 23 minutes in. She had been Episcopalian when she worked for PP. Once she became publicly pro-life, she was no longer welcome there. ::)
I was fascinated by her comments about being drawn to the Latin Mass and her first impressions of it. They did an intriguing comparison of certain aspects of the NO and TLM. There was also some interesting discussion of the difference between online trads and trads in person.
I hope people make the time to watch this so we can talk about the ideas they raised. There were several that I could see being good topics for us.
I liked their comparison, the TLM being masculine and the NO being feminine. The TLM is not a performance. There was a section around 43 minutes for aukwardcustomer. Quote "if your parish aint crying, it's dying." And then they get into how a minority of Trads are obnoxious. All good though. Good talk.
I enjoyed that but to be honest I'm tired of the accusation of Trads being obnoxious or self righteous and smug. I know the parish crank, or the parish weirdo or the community narc but smug....nope not really. Its like the label conspiracy theorist or tin foil hat, put a label on it with no basis and then throw it around because you haven't got anything else. This label was invented by died in the wool NO and now we throw it around too.
Quote from: mikemac on September 08, 2020, 09:42:21 PM
I liked their comparison, the TLM being masculine and the NO being feminine. The TLM is not a performance. There was a section around 43 minutes for aukwardcustomer. Quote "if your parish aint crying, it's dying." And then they get into how a minority of Trads are obnoxious. All good though. Good talk.
Come to the TLM. It's noisy and full of screaming babies and toddlers. It's even noisier than the NO.
That should pull them in.
Oh, and the priest can't hear the noise or see the mayhem because he has his back to you. These people really know how to sell. Must be why Tradition is booming. Not.
What foolish, self-indulgent nonsense. Still, at least they're honest. At least they admit that the TLM is noisy and full of screaming babies and toddlers.
QuoteThis label was invented by died in the wool NO and now we throw it around too.
I have been to the SSPX in the USA, UK, France and Australia (more than just the occasional visit) and I have experienced some real wackiness. It is patchy, but in some locations around the world it is oppressive. The SSPX in London/UK went from great under Father Edward Black to lousy under Frs. Emily and King and now under Robert Brucciani it is very good again. Australia was wacky before Father Black arrived, but since then has improved under his leadership so I am told.
Why is the SSPX great again under Brucciani? Because he is a mentally well balanced, mature adult who had a good childhood in a large Catholic family. I remember playing poker with his brothers in Highclere in the summer of 1986. They were normal mentally healthy people who were good Catholics but did not have a stick up their arse.
I went to the SSPX in Botany Bay, NSW in 1994 and it was like a load of Mormons had become Traditionalists. After 10 weeks I started going to the FSSP in Lewisham instead.
Self-righteous is not a fair label. Trads know and sense they are right because they have history on their side and it is obvious from attending the mass and speaking to people afterwards that 95% at least give a damn about the faith. That is not self-righteous, just
self-evidence that they are right, a completely different thing.
It is undeniable that there are a contingent of Traditionalists who love to nitpick at everything the laity wears, says, expresses, every action of the priest and value form over substance. It is the essence of why you get priests like Fr. Pfeiffer becoming dodgy bishops, because as long as their little group is fed its own view of the world, they can excuse anything provided their personal moral, liturgical and fashion standards are met.
The resistance (or the spectrum of resistances) has been great for the SSPX. It has acted like a nutter magnet.
Bishop Williamson knows this (he is no fool) which is why he refuses to herd cats and lead the resistance. That way he cannot get the blame. Very wise of him.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on September 09, 2020, 03:15:21 AM
What foolish, self-indulgent nonsense. Still, at least they're honest. At least they admit that the TLM is noisy and full of screaming babies and toddlers.
Texans always brag like like that; it's Texas. ;D
Quote from: mikemac on September 08, 2020, 09:42:21 PM
I liked their comparison, the TLM being masculine and the NO being feminine.
That was one of my favourite parts. I don't think I ever put it that way myself, but hearing them discuss it, it really made sense.
Quote from: mikemac on September 08, 2020, 09:42:21 PMQuote "if your parish aint crying, it's dying."
The local diocesan TLM has a weekly bulletin and that quote is prominent on the cover. This group has been growing in numbers and there are now a lot of young families, noticeably more than when I used to go there regularly.
Quote from: mikemac on September 08, 2020, 09:42:21 PMAnd then they get into how a minority of Trads are obnoxious.
There are a couple of things going on. One is that the TLM is a better Mass than the NO and people who attend it are far more likely to have a better grasp of Church teaching. The NO is associated with poor catechesis in a way that the TLM is not. Recognizing this, in itself, is not obnoxious or self-righteous. It is just the reality. It becomes a problem when trads think of ourselves as better people or better Catholics because of these things. If anything, we need to be judged by a higher standard because we have these advantages. But even those of us who realize this get labeled as self-righteous.
The other factor is the online behaviour of trads. The video specifically mentioned Twitter, but we see this on forums too. Even a very small number of people being obnoxious colours the atmosphere of the whole group. This phenomenon is not a specifically trad characteristic. It is a part of online culture, no matter what the topic under discussion. I've heard that online knitting groups are notorious for strife and drama and, while I do not knit myself, I find it hard to believe that this is an inherently contentious topic.
Quote from: Greg on September 09, 2020, 03:45:01 AM
I went to the SSPX in Botany Bay, NSW in 1994 and it was like a load of Mormons had become Traditionalists.
Australians who don't drink? Now this strains credulity.
From my experience of Australians, they'd have a hard time giving up coffee, let alone alcohol.
Quote from: Jayne on September 09, 2020, 06:35:16 AM
I've heard that online knitting groups are notorious for strife and drama and, while I do not knit myself, I find it hard to believe that this is an inherently contentious topic.
You have no idea of the wars between the "knit-one-pearl-two" crowd and the "knit-two-pearl-one" sect. Talk about schism and heresy!
Quote from: Maximilian on September 09, 2020, 08:24:44 AM
Quote from: Jayne on September 09, 2020, 06:35:16 AM
I've heard that online knitting groups are notorious for strife and drama and, while I do not knit myself, I find it hard to believe that this is an inherently contentious topic.
You have no idea of the wars between the "knit-one-pearl-two" crowd and the "knit-two-pearl-one" sect. Talk about schism and heresy!
The struggle is real :knit:
Quote from: Jayne on September 09, 2020, 06:35:16 AM
Quote from: mikemac on September 08, 2020, 09:42:21 PM
I liked their comparison, the TLM being masculine and the NO being feminine.
That was one of my favourite parts. I don't think I ever put it that way myself, but hearing them discuss it, it really made sense.
Quote from: mikemac on September 08, 2020, 09:42:21 PMQuote "if your parish aint crying, it's dying."
The local diocesan TLM has a weekly bulletin and that quote is prominent on the cover. This group has been growing in numbers and there are now a lot of young families, noticeably more than when I used to go there regularly.
Quote from: mikemac on September 08, 2020, 09:42:21 PMAnd then they get into how a minority of Trads are obnoxious.
There are a couple of things going on. One is that the TLM is a better Mass than the NO and people who attend it are far more likely to have a better grasp of Church teaching. The NO is associated with poor catechesis in a way that the TLM is not. Recognizing this, in itself, is not obnoxious or self-righteous. It is just the reality. It becomes a problem when trads think of ourselves as better people or better Catholics because of these things. If anything, we need to be judged by a higher standard because we have these advantages. But even those of us who realize this get labeled as self-righteous.
The other factor is the online behaviour of trads. The video specifically mentioned Twitter, but we see this on forums too. Even a very small number of people being obnoxious colours the atmosphere of the whole group. This phenomenon is not a specifically trad characteristic. It is a part of online culture, no matter what the topic under discussion. I've heard that online knitting groups are notorious for strife and drama and, while I do not knit myself, I find it hard to believe that this is an inherently contentious topic.
The issue with the large knitting community was that the pink hats went insane if someone appeared to support Trump. Pretty stupid.
Being wacky is different to being self righteous and we could bottle it, sell it and become millionaires if wacky were a commodity.
All that aside, a trad catholic has some very strong personality traits to become a trad in the first place and then to sustain themselves in their new world. You have to have determination to keep going in this crazy world .
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/30/catholics-who-love-the-latin-mass-need-to-get-better-at-loving-their-neighbors-too/
Quote from: Heinrich on September 09, 2020, 02:59:56 PM
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/30/catholics-who-love-the-latin-mass-need-to-get-better-at-loving-their-neighbors-too/
This author has no credibility. He does not even realize that monarchy is the ideal form of government. :crazy:
Quote from: Jayne on September 09, 2020, 03:22:51 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on September 09, 2020, 02:59:56 PM
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/30/catholics-who-love-the-latin-mass-need-to-get-better-at-loving-their-neighbors-too/
This author has no credibility. He does not even realize that monarchy is the ideal form of government. :crazy:
He's just recycling Fr. Ripperger. From an Opus Dei point of view.
I like what Fr. Ripperger has to say when he sticks to his areas of expertise such as the spiritual life and demonic oppression, but when he starts mixing in his own personal opinions on subjects like "traditionalists," he just embarrasses himself.
It's a sin of rash judgment. As Fr. Ripperger himself would say, "It's effeminate. Just stop it."
Quote from: mikemac on September 08, 2020, 09:42:21 PM
There was a section around 43 minutes for aukwardcustomer. Quote "if your parish aint crying, it's dying."
Oh good grief...why?? Now you know she won't shut up for a month about this....
:)
Quote from: coffeeandcigarette on September 09, 2020, 09:33:22 PM
Quote from: mikemac on September 08, 2020, 09:42:21 PM
There was a section around 43 minutes for aukwardcustomer. Quote "if your parish aint crying, it's dying."
Oh good grief...why?? Now you know she won't shut up for a month about this....
Mikemac just couldn't help himself. And neither could you.
And besides, I agree with Abby Johnson and Taylor Marshall when they say that the TLM is "as noisy and full of screaming kids" as the NO. Because it is, although they mean babies and toddlers, not kids.
But that's a detail. The important point is the claim that being noisy and full of screaming babies and toddlers is a selling point. But perhaps I'm missing something. Being as noisy and full of screaming babies and toddlers as the NO must be why Tradition is flourishing, why Trad parishes are overflowing and why the Conciliarists are quaking in their boots as the TLM takes over.
Oh, and Mikemac, a crying parish is a parish which people attend once before the noise and the screaming drives them away, unless they're insensitive loudmouths who feel right at home among noise and screaming, or are prepared to white-knuckle it through every TLM they attend.
Quote from: Maximilian on September 09, 2020, 04:51:55 PM
Quote from: Jayne on September 09, 2020, 03:22:51 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on September 09, 2020, 02:59:56 PM
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/30/catholics-who-love-the-latin-mass-need-to-get-better-at-loving-their-neighbors-too/
This author has no credibility. He does not even realize that monarchy is the ideal form of government. :crazy:
He's just recycling Fr. Ripperger. From an Opus Dei point of view.
I like what Fr. Ripperger has to say when he sticks to his areas of expertise such as the spiritual life and demonic oppression, but when he starts mixing in his own personal opinions on subjects like "traditionalists," he just embarrasses himself.
It's a sin of rash judgment. As Fr. Ripperger himself would say, "It's effeminate. Just stop it."
That article just makes me mad. IF anyone suffers with 'righteousness' its the author who seems to enjoy writing like an old woman with pursed lips and handbag on the knees pointing out the faults of the trads.
I have a few very good conservative NO Catholics through prolife whom I'd admire greatly and love being in their company. Its the Catholics who are hypocrites whom I can't stand, the ones who vote for gay marriage and abortion or say sure all faiths are the same. There is a thing called righteous anger or righteous pride and in their case I sure as hell can call them false Catholics. Anyone saint or sinner who comes to TLM is welcome in my eyes and tbh I couldn't think of anything worse than the 'love bombing' to a newbie on the doorstep. Also, a little more selfish but on Sunday I'm so glad to get Mass and the sacraments for myself and the family and I'm getting what I can in my catholic battery pack to keep me powered for the week ahead that I'm not really in the humour for taking care of someone else.
Oh I can see a future in geriatric crankiness for me. :)
Wow, I'm actually so impressed by how much she has changed in just 11 years! That's not easy.
I really wanted to like her movie, Unplanned, but really hated it. It showed those crazy white men who say abortion is murder as the real bad guys, but the baby-killing femi-nazi as simply misguided on this one issue. I expected this talk to be Unplanned 2.0, but it was actually very different. She comes right out and says that after she left Planned Parenthood she was still a raving socialist, who had completely emasculated her husband, was a terrible mother, and destroyed her marriage. She said it wasn't like she had happened to be pro-choice, but was conservative on other issues- anything the Church taught, she believed the opposite, so becoming pro-life didn't fix that.
That's all the happy ending in the movie, so it's great to see that in real life, she knew that that wasn't a happy ending. It's very humbling to see someone who was a total feminist have changed so much as to display such sincere appreciation and admiration of masculinity and men and accept her feminine role so cheerfully.
If she's come this far in 11 years, please God, she'll be even better 11 years from now.
And she actually never says that trads are obnoxious. She spends almost the entire video saying how incredibly wonderful and welcoming everyone was and then Taylor Marshall is the one who brought up the typical imaginary trad stereotypes at the very end and she went along with it, but then really emphasized that that's only been her experience on twitter and they both agree that all the traditionalists they've met in real life have been great, normal people. Who hasn't ended up saying something critical when trying to be nice? The saints say it's inevitable if we talk too long.
If they'd stuck to a tidy 60 minutes, instead of going to 1:03:25, they'd have almost to the second avoided that pitfall.
Quote from: Jayne on September 09, 2020, 03:22:51 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on September 09, 2020, 02:59:56 PM
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/30/catholics-who-love-the-latin-mass-need-to-get-better-at-loving-their-neighbors-too/
This author has no credibility. He does not even realize that monarchy is the ideal form of government. :crazy:
Did you even read the whole article??
The guy is absolutely right about a lot of things.
QuoteAs with any organization, however, with the growth of TLM communities, there have been some growing pains. In the years to come, it will be key to address these concerns so the Tridentine Mass can continue to grow, not only in popularity but also in legitimacy.
QuoteAll this usually springs from a bunker mentality resulting from decades of condemnation. As Taylor Marshall writes in his latest book "Infiltration," the church had taken an antagonistic stance toward the Tridentine Mass ever since the changes of Vatican II. All of sudden, the liturgy that Catholics knew and loved was practically banned. This ban lasted until Pope Benedict XVI officially lifted it in 2007 with the letter "Summorum Pontificum."
For this reason, traditional Catholics tend to distrust the Vatican along with the secular world. While most will not explicitly break with church authority, many will distance themselves from Novus Ordo Catholics, Protestants, and everyone else. Hence, their preferred form of evangelization is having large families and sheltering them as much as possible, just as their parents did after Vatican II.
QuoteAgain, the Tridentine Mass itself is not to blame for this. If anything, theologically liberal Catholics created this problem by stigmatizing and marginalizing their traditional brethren for so long. They turned something beautiful and empowering into something strange and embarrassing. Traditional Catholics were banished from polite company. Now many of them have become comfortable as permanent outsiders.
QuoteAfter all, traditional Catholicism is better able to facilitate local community and real charity. It replaces the superficial salesmanship and virtue signaling of modern proselytizing with authentic devotion and common sense. Welcoming others and being normal does not necessarily mean compromising one's traditions or liturgical standards. Evangelization and orthodoxy are perfectly compatible.
The recovery of tradition has been a great boon to modern Catholics. It is the church's greatest advantage in a society increasingly detached from its heritage and sound spiritual teachings. As Pope Francis and the others continue to ignore problems and alienate more and more people, there needs to be a viable alternative in the church. The Traditional Latin Mass community has a bright future, but it needs to confront its failings so it can finally save a church in crisis.
Quote from: dellery on September 10, 2020, 05:00:12 AM
Quote from: Jayne on September 09, 2020, 03:22:51 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on September 09, 2020, 02:59:56 PM
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/30/catholics-who-love-the-latin-mass-need-to-get-better-at-loving-their-neighbors-too/
This author has no credibility. He does not even realize that monarchy is the ideal form of government. :crazy:
Did you even read the whole article??
Yes, I did. That was my tongue in cheek way of saying that I believe one of the ideas he listed among the things that make trads look crazy. That is why I put the crazy emoji there.
THIS:Quote from: Maximilian on September 09, 2020, 04:51:55 PM
I like what Fr. Ripperger has to say when he sticks to his areas of expertise such as the spiritual life and demonic oppression, but when he starts mixing in his own personal opinions on subjects like "traditionalists," he just embarrasses himself.
He is quite knowledgeable about exorcism and the three levels of sustained demonic activity, given how many exorcisms he has accomplished and his wide communication with fellow exorcists. When he starts opining about the spiritual state (and moral failings) of traditionalists, not so much. It takes omniscient knowledge to make such sweeping judgments, and that he lacks, just as the rest of us lack that.
Quote from: Heinrich on September 09, 2020, 02:59:56 PM
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/30/catholics-who-love-the-latin-mass-need-to-get-better-at-loving-their-neighbors-too/
That article is about a year old, and I think I commented several times underneath it at that time. I thought it was actually posted on SD also near that time, but I'm not sure. There was also a response to it on the Federalist, but as I recall, I was a little disappointed in the counter-article.
The central point, which I don't think the follow-up addressed, is Fr. Ripperger's lack of credentials to judge the hearts and souls of strangers, or even people he has merely met but does not know well. Um, speaking of lack of charity....? Engaging in caricature (or, judgment by class or by affiliation) is a grave form of injustice. He should know that better than any layperson.
What I can say when I've had to submit to the occasional "torture" of a N.O.M. (in the past) is that I am offended by the form and that I experienced less grace from attendance than from attending the TLM. I can also say that, overall, I observed more informality among the attendees there than at the TLM, but by no means were/are all of them irreverent, nor are all TLM attendees reverent. The problem is simply more pronounced, in my experience, at a N.O.M.
However, many of those attendees have not been well catechized. Most likely, they are living up to whatever level of behavior has been taught to them is acceptable, and they are also mirroring the self-reference that the N.O.M. models. (All about humanity and casualness and friendliness
during Mass.) In itself, that does not make them better Catholics than trads, nor worse Catholics. It makes them neglected Catholics.
Quote from: Miriam_M on September 10, 2020, 12:08:13 PM
The central point, which I don't think the follow-up addressed, is Fr. Ripperger's lack of credentials to judge the hearts and souls of strangers, or even people he has merely met but does not know well. Um, speaking of lack of charity....? Engaging in caricature (or, judgment by class or by affiliation) is a grave form of injustice. He should know that better than any layperson.
I was listening to a Fr. Ripperger youtube video the other day, and he suddenly veered off into a tangent ranting about traditionalists. So I skipped ahead a few minutes, and he was still on the same topic. So I just clicked it off.
I'm not going to listen to rash judgment against my fellow traditionalists. Even if I am bad, there are holy priests who are being disparaged, and I don't want to be a party to that.
Quote from: Maximilian on September 10, 2020, 04:36:11 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on September 10, 2020, 12:08:13 PM
The central point, which I don't think the follow-up addressed, is Fr. Ripperger's lack of credentials to judge the hearts and souls of strangers, or even people he has merely met but does not know well. Um, speaking of lack of charity....? Engaging in caricature (or, judgment by class or by affiliation) is a grave form of injustice. He should know that better than any layperson.
I was listening to a Fr. Ripperger youtube video the other day, and he suddenly veered off into a tangent ranting about traditionalists. So I skipped ahead a few minutes, and he was still on the same topic. So I just clicked it off.
I'm not going to listen to rash judgment against my fellow traditionalists. Even if I am bad, there are holy priests who are being disparaged, and I don't want to be a party to that.
A traditional priest once homilied that weak and prideful people reject criticism and become recalcitrant(my word). Just say'n.
Quote from: Heinrich on September 10, 2020, 06:19:29 PM
Quote from: Maximilian on September 10, 2020, 04:36:11 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on September 10, 2020, 12:08:13 PM
The central point, which I don't think the follow-up addressed, is Fr. Ripperger's lack of credentials to judge the hearts and souls of strangers, or even people he has merely met but does not know well. Um, speaking of lack of charity....? Engaging in caricature (or, judgment by class or by affiliation) is a grave form of injustice. He should know that better than any layperson.
I was listening to a Fr. Ripperger youtube video the other day, and he suddenly veered off into a tangent ranting about traditionalists. So I skipped ahead a few minutes, and he was still on the same topic. So I just clicked it off.
I'm not going to listen to rash judgment against my fellow traditionalists. Even if I am bad, there are holy priests who are being disparaged, and I don't want to be a party to that.
A traditional priest once homilied that weak and prideful people reject criticism and become recalcitrant(my word). Just say'n.
Heinrich, you are not seeing this. It has nothing to do with WHAT is being said -- good or bad. It has to do with generalizing about an entire group of people, but especially in a way that amounts to rash judgment, because the judgment concerns the interior of the person.
Even
IF Fr. R were the spiritual director of every single trad he has ever met (and thus with sufficient information as to the state of their souls), he would be committing a different offense -- which would be breaking confidentiality and committing a form of detraction, which is a mortal sin, if he were in a position to disclose the supposedly interminable list of faults of every traditional Catholic.
Fr. R. hasn't done that, but since he does not have a spiritual director's knowledge of the state of soul of each trad he casually meets, then he is absolutely not in any position to draw categorical conclusions. It would be just as inaccurate -- though not as offensive -- to claim that trads
as a group are more virtuous than Catholics who attend only the N.O.M.
It's the stereotyping that I have heard with my own ears countless times from him, and that I read last year in the Federalist article. It would be one thing if he had initially mentioned only "first impressions" he was warning against, and that, with time, became more nuanced and differentiated. But that's not what he does. I know
for a fact that he has never visited my trad community. Yes, my community is imperfect, sinful, often lacking in virtue,
like every other community on earth, Catholic or not. But my community is not homogeneous in one or more particular areas (like, lack of charity as a whole group; like, aggressively questioning the priest's gestures at Mass, etc.) Some have problems with charity, others with pride, others with envy, and in each case there are compensating virtues nevertheless.
Now, some do ask -- merely out of curiosity -- for an explanation of certain gestures, which our priests see as
a good thing, not as an attack on the priest. Our priests welcome questions about liturgical form; they are partly there to educate. And if a priest is not there to educate but to act defensive and assume arrogance on the part of the lay person who merely asks a question, then the priest, whoever he is, is himself lacking in virtues of humility and patience, I'm sorry.
I want to add something that I think is important when we're judging or tempted to judge an entire group. Often, the people we identify as "representative" of a group are not representative at all. I'm not denying that Fr. R has encountered aggressive questioning in the way he says the liturgy and that he has seen pride and lack of charity in several trads he has met in at least a few locations. But even if those were the only locations trads were present (they aren't the only locations), the people who approach him, challenge him, or boast about themselves are simply the ones most visible and least worried about being jerks or appearing to be jerks. That's the way groups of people work. Fr. R undoubtedly hasn't met the humble people, the charitable people, etc., because those are not the ones who have an agenda. That's the entire point. You could describe this as a self-selected group.
What about all those parishioners, Father, who nodded/smiled at you respectfully or merely shook your hand after Mass, and said nothing, but meekly returned to their cars, trains, homes, or visited the sick on a Sunday, visited friends or relatives, got together there at church or in a different location to engage in some Catholic fellowship? You don't have an answer, do you, Father? And I do not believe that 100% of the parishioners approached you after Mass and showed themselves to be uncharitable jerks.
Sorry. Not believable.
Trads: Too ignorant to help themselves out, too stubborn to learn how, and too proud to accept it from someone else.
Quote from: Heinrich on September 10, 2020, 06:19:29 PM
A traditional priest once homilied that weak and prideful people reject criticism and become recalcitrant(my word). Just say'n.
This needs to be reminded from time to time.
Individual trads can be assholes and all the things you accuse them of, but as a group compared to the fuck-ups in novus ordo land they tend to be more successful at raising families and keeping their children on the straight and narrow.
In a Pepsi challenge between novus-ordoland and tradland, I would have to believe that trads would wipe the floor with novus-ordinarians, especially if you took the lapsed ones into account on both sides of the equation.
Test of their faith, what they knew and what they believed (Trads win this hands down. NOs are laughably ignorant).
Test of their ability to stick to a vocation or raise a successful Catholic family. Trads win.
Lapse rate of their children. Trads win.
Size of families, Trads win.
I would define a Trad as someone who flatly refuses to attend the new mass and wants Vatican II documents burned and the people who pushed them posthumously excommunicated.
Quote from: Greg on September 11, 2020, 06:25:58 AM
Individual trads can be assholes and all the things you accuse them of, but as a group compared to the fuck-ups in novus ordo land they tend to be more successful at raising families and keeping their children on the straight and narrow.
In a Pepsi challenge between novus-ordoland and tradland, I would have to believe that trads would wipe the floor with novus-ordinarians, especially if you took the lapsed ones into account on both sides of the equation.
Test of their faith, what they knew and what they believed (Trads win this hands down. NOs are laughably ignorant).
Test of their ability to stick to a vocation or raise a successful Catholic family. Trads win.
Lapse rate of their children. Trads win.
Size of families, Trads win.
I would define a Trad as someone who flatly refuses to attend the new mass and wants Vatican II documents burned and the people who pushed them posthumously excommunicated.
oh but you're not allowed to say that 8)
I am allowed because the only people telling me not to say it are Trad pretenders and I feel wholly at liberty to ignore them.
Part of the problem is that we get people like Greg acting as if he is some sort of trad spokesman who gets to define who real trads are. Of course this creates a negative impression. If I did not know enough to realize that I should ignore Greg, I would think that trads are horrible. I certainly would not want to be one.
Catholicism isn't a contest between trads vs. novus ordo Catholics over who has more faith or knowledge (or kids). Those are all good things, and a selling point of traditionaism itself, but ironically, that attitude would only place one in the loser position spiritually, by losing in their soul the true spirit of Jesus Christ which is charity. And, ironically it shows an actual short-sighted lack of faith and knowledge in Catholicism. Catholic Tradition, and an authentic traditionalist turn towards Tradition, is essential, but not in a pharisaical way. This warning is often preached by trad priests whether SSPX, FSSP, motu proprio, etc. In certain ways trads are better, in terms of orthodoxy or orthopraxis, but I'm not sure we should claim (or talk as if) we are spiritually superior. Maybe we are, God knows.
Quote from: Jayne on September 11, 2020, 10:38:04 AM
Part of the problem is that we get people like Greg acting as if he is some sort of trad spokesman who gets to define who real trads are. Of course this creates a negative impression. If I did not know enough to realize that I should ignore Greg, I would think that trads are horrible. I certainly would not want to be one.
Now that was uncalled for young lady. He's a rarity in that he grew up trad and has had more experiences in divers places than most of us here. That should count for something, even if he's using the barrack's language.
https://youtu.be/wQ5BFivMwxU
Rarity? ::)
Quote from: Heinrich on September 11, 2020, 02:24:59 PM
Quote from: Jayne on September 11, 2020, 10:38:04 AM
Part of the problem is that we get people like Greg acting as if he is some sort of trad spokesman who gets to define who real trads are. Of course this creates a negative impression. If I did not know enough to realize that I should ignore Greg, I would think that trads are horrible. I certainly would not want to be one.
Now that was uncalled for young lady. He's a rarity in that he grew up trad and has had more experiences in divers places than most of us here. That should count for something, even if he's using the barrack's language.
The barrack's language is a relatively minor problem. He regularly posts ideas inconsistent with Catholic teaching. We have seen countless posts in which he rejected doctrine in favour of alleged "common sense". Being a trad is about accepting the Catholic faith that has been preserved and handed on through the ages. Who one's relatives are and where one has travelled are completely irrelevant. They count for nothing at all.
Although there is such a thing as trad culture, it is not the core of being a traditional Catholic. Being Catholic is the core. We are traditional because we are holding onto that core in a world gone mad and we recognize that this core is found in tradition.
Whether one's reaction to Greg is "what a character" or "what a jerk" there is no basis to hold him as a good proponent of Catholicism or as a representative of tradition.
QuoteAlthough there is such a thing as trad culture, it is not the core of being a traditional Catholic. Being Catholic is the core. We are traditional because we are holding onto that core in a world gone mad and we recognize that this core is found in tradition.
Well said, Jayne!
Quote from: Jayne on September 11, 2020, 05:09:16 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on September 11, 2020, 02:24:59 PM
Quote from: Jayne on September 11, 2020, 10:38:04 AM
Part of the problem is that we get people like Greg acting as if he is some sort of trad spokesman who gets to define who real trads are. Of course this creates a negative impression. If I did not know enough to realize that I should ignore Greg, I would think that trads are horrible. I certainly would not want to be one.
Now that was uncalled for young lady. He's a rarity in that he grew up trad and has had more experiences in divers places than most of us here. That should count for something, even if he's using the barrack's language.
The barrack's language is a relatively minor problem. He regularly posts ideas inconsistent with Catholic teaching. We have seen countless posts in which he rejected doctrine in favour of alleged "common sense". Being a trad is about accepting the Catholic faith that has been preserved and handed on through the ages. Who one's relatives are and where one has travelled are completely irrelevant. They count for nothing at all.
Although there is such a thing as trad culture, it is not the core of being a traditional Catholic. Being Catholic is the core. We are traditional because we are holding onto that core in a world gone mad and we recognize that this core is found in tradition.
Whether one's reaction to Greg is "what a character" or "what a jerk" there is no basis to hold him as a good proponent of Catholicism or as a representative of tradition.
Do you agree with him post #31?
Quote from: christulsa on September 11, 2020, 01:24:07 PM
Catholicism isn't a contest between trads vs. novus ordo Catholics
Wrong. It is a contest. We fight a fight. We run a race. There is a prize for the winners.
The novus ordo and trad worlds cannot co-exist. One must kill the other off.
That is evident for all to see. Just like a person's gender.
Quote from: Greg on September 11, 2020, 07:15:30 PM
Quote from: christulsa on September 11, 2020, 01:24:07 PM
Catholicism isn't a contest between trads vs. novus ordo Catholics
Wrong. It is a contest. We fight a fight. We run a race. There is a prize for the winners.
The novus ordo and trad worlds cannot co-exist. One must kill the other off.
That is evident for all to see. Just like a person's gender.
There's a difference between Tradition vs. the Novus Ordo, and the Catholic character/holiness of trads vs novus ordo Catholics. Let's just say practicing novus ordo-rite Catholics who one some level still profess being Catholic. Obviously to most here, Tradition is at odds with the New Religion of Vatican II/the New Mass. But by your own post history critiquing the hypocrisy/nuttiness found at times in the Trad movement, you would admit that when a trad acts superior to novus ordo Catholics, on a personal level, because per se they are "trad," that is going to make us look bad, and discourage novus ordo Catholics from returning to Tradition. Marshall and Johnson were briefly addressing this issue in the video you posted in the OP.
And to answer your question about if I am using drugs (which you edited out), I am drinking tonight Jim Bim Devil's Cut.
Incorrect. I have never said that about Trads.
We should be superior to Novus Ordinarians and have superior fruits, ie show that superiority. Fruits are things you can see.
There is a different between being proud and acknowledging reality. A trad family of 10 is superior to a novus ordo family of 3.
Where Trads talk the talk, without walking the walk, then, and only then, I have accused them.
But Trads are inherently superior because they have a better set of tools. Novus Ordinarians are deliberate and wilful spiritual cripples.
Vigano was such a cripple for a long time. He knew about Arch. Lefebvre in the 1970s, but did not have the jacobs to defend him. Now as an old man, and from hiding he writes letters. Weak, inferior. No hero. Vigano came from a rich family so did not even need the Vatican to fund his life. Saying Lefebvre was right now is better than nothing, but it is blatantly obvious at this point.
Do we praise the Nazi who leaves the Party in April 1945 or the Soviet communist who resigns in 1989?
Likewise, if Trump turns out to be a great President who makes America great for good American people, and hamstrings the liberal scumbags those who refuse to vote for him in 2020 get zero credit for admitting this in 2025. Timing is everything.
QuoteMarshall and Johnson were briefly addressing this issue in the video you posted in the OP.
I don't consider either the self-appointed Taylor Marshall who used to be an Episcopalian priest, or Abby Johnson who worked at an abortion clinic to be useful spokespeople for Traditionalists. I have been a Trad longer than both of them put together, and their respect husbands and wives.
New arrivals are quick to complain, but in my rule book you only get to take out what you have put in.
I don't dislike them, but being self promoting and famous on new media is only as good as the fruits it delivers. I bow to no celebrity.
Quote from: Greg on September 11, 2020, 07:46:29 PM
But Trads are inherently superior
Our Lord said "Thus the first shall be last, and the last first."
Tradition has objective reference points. It's the Church who says so. Lay people do not randomly decide what Tradition is. However, lay people may on occasion correctly observe when other lay people are confused about what Tradition consists of. For example, the biggest myth is that the Traditional Mass comprises the whole of Tradition. By no means does it.
Liturgy and the other sacramental rites are one of three components of Tradition. Doctrine is a second component. Modern Catholic doctrine, deriving as most of it does from V2 (implicitly or explicitly) is incompatible with Tradition. That's why traditionalist priests tend to use The Council of Trent catechism as a chief teaching resource. Sometimes they supplement that with the Baltimore Catechism, and a book called My Living Faith, and the lay catechism of St. Pius X. Occasionally, out of convenience, and in a particular area that does not conflict with the Trent Catechism they might quote also from the current Catechism, but only selectively, in my experience. There are far too many sections of the modern catechism that are modernistic and even heretical; the section on sexual morality is a good example.
Spirituality is a third major component of Catholic Tradition. Spirituality consists of an awful lot: the saints, personal prayer and piety (including devotions – public and private), how the Faith is practiced in the home and in parishes led by traditional priests (even outside the liturgy), and more.
All three elements are cohesive and intertwined. They are not merely interchangeable with today's mainstream Catholicism. I agree with Greg and with Michael Wilson that there is a hard line that was crossed with V2 and which makes the modern practice of Catholicism fundamentally incompatible with the practice of traditional Catholicism.
Again, this is not a lay pronouncement, and the evidence of that is that this division is at least implicitly, and often explicitly, acknowledged by modern clergy and hierarchy, in their choices. They so much as admit that most Catholics alive have grown up with a different understanding of the faith (and they use that fact as an excuse for avoiding Tradition). These same priests also understand that it's not really possible, and certainly not terribly effective, to engage in mix-and-match with laity. In my experience, those diocesan priests who go in and out of the N.O.M. and the TLM are often signaling that they would prefer to convert wholly to Tradition and educate/convert their flocks, but that they are trying to do so without trauma to that flock and controversy with their bishops or superiors. However, if they are still trying to please two masters, they are not (yet) trads; they may aspire to, and they may be incidentally holy and brave priests and exceptionally orthodox for diocesan priests.
So, objectively speaking, a lay person, also, who finds no essential contradiction in choosing to attend two forms of the Mass (when that person has a choice to attend only one or the other) does not understand what Tradition is and therefore cannot be called a trad. It's not an insult to say that. It's merely a fact. Nor is it a statement about the person's level of holiness. It could be a statement about his ignorance, however.
By contrast, the state of a Catholic's soul cannot be objectively determined by anyone but God. Even we as individuals have a hard time being accurate about ourselves. Fr. R is not an expert – since he is not God – on the state of souls of others. He might be a good guesser, he might have some good indications, but those suppositions relate to individuals within a group, which may or may not be representative of the entire group or even most of the group. I already covered this, but it bears repeating that often the most vocal members of a group are actually those who distort the orientation of the rest of the group. Those vocal members may be in fact the most extreme elements of the group, which is precisely why they are so vocal: they seek to commandeer the group or the message, so to speak.
I will go even further than what I said before and grant that 100% of the people who have approached Fr. R after he has said Mass in various places are jerks who lack virtue. But being loud and being a jerk does not mean that you represent the majority of the group. It means that you are trying to appear that you do by brute domination. In my experience with trad groups, it is the visible fringe, not the less visible core, who are the problem. Many, many lay people, including trads, are too shy to approach priests or merely have no inclination to. Usually, a minority of lay people approach a priest unless the priest is particularly accessible, outgoing, and even charismatic. Fr. R is, I'm sorry, kind of a scary guy. Personally, knowing what I know about his style – having listened to dozens of his sermons and heard him speak so critically of lay people – I would not choose to approach him if he were visiting my parish for a mission, conference, or Mass. I might attend that mission, conference, or Mass, but I would not necessarily approach him on my own. Yet I am not known to be shy about approaching prominent people, so if I can say that I wouldn't do it in this case, I have to believe that lots of other people have found Fr. R intimidating, and that therefore probably a minority of people have ever approached him individually. Yet he has the gall to generalize about "traditionalists," not adding "some" traditionalists, or "a few particularly obnoxious trads that give the movement a bad name."
There is an irony about his comfort with lecturing (all) trads about charity when he is showing by his comments that he is exhibiting neither charity nor justice.
Quote from: christulsa on September 11, 2020, 08:53:41 PM
Quote from: Greg on September 11, 2020, 07:46:29 PM
But Trads are inherently superior
Our Lord said "Thus the first shall be last, and the last first."
He cannot have meant the best Catholics with the best fruits of well lived Catholic lives will be last, those who value a liturgy far more dignified to God than the new mass happy meal, because that would be profoundly stupid and unjust.
So the quote cannot apply to Trads.
Regarding this thought that "its only a tiny minority that are uncharitable, rude, nutter etc". It doesnt matter have few they are, the point is that they are a natural component to traditionalism.
Same with Islam, its only a tiny minority that are terrorist, but terrorism is a natural component to Islam.
Quote from: Heinrich on September 11, 2020, 06:40:23 PM
Quote from: Jayne on September 11, 2020, 05:09:16 PM
Whether one's reaction to Greg is "what a character" or "what a jerk" there is no basis to hold him as a good proponent of Catholicism or as a representative of tradition.
Do you agree with him post #31?
That post was a load of judgmental, self-serving nonsense. The idea that family size is some sort of objective means to judge people is pure piffle. (And even if it were meaningful, Opus Dei/ conservative NO types also have large families. Not to mention countless non-Catholics.) The things that matter most are hidden within peoples hearts where nobody can judge them.
Our Lord actually taught us how to identify His followers:
"A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another." (John 13:34,35)
And if we want to know what Christian love (aka charity) looks like:
"Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." (I Cor 13:4-7)
And if we want to talk about visible fruit:
"But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity, mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity." (Galatians 5:22,23)
Those of us with access to the traditional Mass and awareness of traditional teaching should respond with gratitude and praise to God, not by congratulating ourselves on how superior we are to those deprived of those things. Nor is it a reason to think that we have won some sort of imaginary contest with them. We have been blessed by an outpouring of God's grace, but, in turn, God has far greater expectations of us. We need to work out our salvation "with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12) not launch into a rousing chorus of "We are the Champions."
Quote from: Sempronius on September 12, 2020, 03:48:32 AM
Regarding this thought that "its only a tiny minority that are uncharitable, rude, nutter etc". It doesnt matter have few they are, the point is that they are a natural component to traditionalism.
Same with Islam, its only a tiny minority that are terrorist, but terrorism is a natural component to Islam.
The "tiny minority that are uncharitable, rude, nutter etc" are a natural component of the human race. There are people like that everywhere and not just in Tradition.
Trads are the heroes of the Modern Age. That some Trads are part of the inescapable minority of human beings who are profoundly nasty and who are to be found wherever you go is only to be expected.
Quote from: Heinrich on September 11, 2020, 02:24:59 PM
Quote from: Jayne on September 11, 2020, 10:38:04 AM
Part of the problem is that we get people like Greg acting as if he is some sort of trad spokesman who gets to define who real trads are. Of course this creates a negative impression. If I did not know enough to realize that I should ignore Greg, I would think that trads are horrible. I certainly would not want to be one.
Now that was uncalled for young lady. He's a rarity in that he grew up trad and has had more experiences in divers places than most of us here. That should count for something, even if he's using the barrack's language.
Agreed.
Jayne's baiting of Greg is profoundly unpleasant.
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on September 12, 2020, 05:56:15 AM
Quote from: Sempronius on September 12, 2020, 03:48:32 AM
Regarding this thought that "its only a tiny minority that are uncharitable, rude, nutter etc". It doesnt matter have few they are, the point is that they are a natural component to traditionalism.
Same with Islam, its only a tiny minority that are terrorist, but terrorism is a natural component to Islam.
The "tiny minority that are uncharitable, rude, nutter etc" are a natural component of the human race. There are people like that everywhere and not just in Tradition.
Trads are the heroes of the Modern Age. That some Trads are part of the inescapable minority of human beings who are profoundly nasty and who are to be found wherever you go is only to be expected.
So when you think of novus ordo-land, do you get the impression that they are also elitists/nutty/ rude etc?
I dont. it reminds me of weak ignorant men, bossy women and fake smiles.
Whatever your style is, tradition/conservative/mainstream, every style is set with different positiv/negative impressions.
Quote from: Jayne on September 12, 2020, 04:45:41 AM
The idea that family size is some sort of objective means to judge people is pure piffle.
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=5370
The Large Family by Pope Pius XII
"... large families, those most blessed by God and specially loved and prized by the Church as its most precious treasures...
... Wherever you find large families in great numbers, they point to: the physical and moral health of a Christian people; a living faith in God and trust in His Providence; the fruitful and joyful holiness of Catholic marriage...
... So let the weak and selfish take their example from you; let the nation continue to be loving and grateful toward you for all the sacrifices you have taken upon yourselves to raise and educate its citizens; just as the Church is pleased with you for enabling her to offer, along with you, ever healthier and larger groups of souls to the sanctifying activity of the divine Spirit...
... a large, well-ordered family is a kind of visible shrine: the sacrament of Baptism is not an exceptional event for them but something constantly renewing the joy and grace of the Lord. The series of happy pilgrimages to the Baptismal font is not yet finished when a new one to Confirmation and first Communion begins, aglow with the same innocence. The youngest of the children will scarcely have put away his little white suit among the dearest memories of life, when the first wedding veil appears to bring parents, children, and new relatives together at the foot of the altar. More marriages, more Baptisms, more first Communions follow each other like ever-new springtimes that, in a sense, make the visits of God and of His grace to the home unending.
Trust in God
But God also visits large families with His Providence, and parents, especially those who are poor, give clear testimony to this by resting all their trust in Him when human efforts are not enough. A trust that has a solid foundation and is not in vain! Providence — to put it in human words and ideas — is not a sum total of exceptional acts of divine pity; it is the ordinary result of harmonious activity on the part of the infinite wisdom, goodness and omnipotence of the Creator. God will never refuse a means of living to those He calls into being...
...
Large families are the most splendid flower-beds in the garden of the Church; happiness flowers in them and sanctity ripens in favorable soil. Every family group, even the smallest, was meant by God to be an oasis of spiritual peace. But there is a tremendous difference: where the number of children is not much more than one, that serene intimacy that gives value to life has a touch of melancholy or of pallor about it; it does not last as long, it may be more uncertain, it is often clouded by secret fears and remorse...."
And many more beautiful quotes within the rest of his address.
Large families are indeed a wonderful thing, but that does not mean that we should judge people based on their family size. To assume that a small family means sinful use of birth control or lack of holiness is the sin of rash judgment.
Quote from: Jayne on September 12, 2020, 08:55:25 AM
Large families are indeed a wonderful thing, but that does not mean that we should judge people based on their family size. To assume that a small family means sinful use of birth control or lack of holiness is the sin of rash judgment.
You're making a category error. No one is judging individual people. We are judging the group. That is the discussion. And if that's wrong, you'll have to blame Pope Pius XII who did the same thing. He says there is a "tremendous difference" between large families and small families. That's not "rash judgment."
Quote from: queen.saints on September 12, 2020, 08:48:19 AM
Every family group, even the smallest, was meant by God to be an oasis of spiritual peace. But there is a tremendous difference: where the number of children is not much more than one, that serene intimacy that gives value to life has a touch of melancholy or of pallor about it; it does not last as long, it may be more uncertain, it is often clouded by secret fears and remorse."
Quote from: Sempronius on September 12, 2020, 07:53:03 AM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on September 12, 2020, 05:56:15 AM
Quote from: Sempronius on September 12, 2020, 03:48:32 AM
Regarding this thought that "its only a tiny minority that are uncharitable, rude, nutter etc". It doesnt matter have few they are, the point is that they are a natural component to traditionalism.
Same with Islam, its only a tiny minority that are terrorist, but terrorism is a natural component to Islam.
The "tiny minority that are uncharitable, rude, nutter etc" are a natural component of the human race. There are people like that everywhere and not just in Tradition.
Trads are the heroes of the Modern Age. That some Trads are part of the inescapable minority of human beings who are profoundly nasty and who are to be found wherever you go is only to be expected.
So when you think of novus ordo-land, do you get the impression that they are also elitists/nutty/ rude etc?
I dont. it reminds me of weak ignorant men, bossy women and fake smiles.
Whatever your style is, tradition/conservative/mainstream, every style is set with different positiv/negative impressions.
I don't think Trads are elitists/nutty/rude etc. And I don't think you can generalise about NO people either.
If anything, I've encountered far more of the people who might be termed nutters, loons and misfits at the NO than at any TLM I've attended. But that might be because when I did attend the NO it was at a busy city centre church and city centres tend to be like that. The NO is, in fact, very tolerant of the kind of marginalised people who find a kind of home in and around Catholic churches.
Having said that, there is a degree of truth in your stereotypes, but they by no means tell the full picture.
Quote from: Sempronius on September 12, 2020, 03:48:32 AM
Regarding this thought that "its only a tiny minority that are uncharitable, rude, nutter etc". It doesnt matter have few they are, the point is that they are a natural component to traditionalism.
As usual, you make a good point! :)
However, I would not bundle uncharitable and rude with "nutter." Different category. I also agree with awkward that there are as many nutters in the N.O. branch of Catholicism -- just different varieties of "craziness," "wackiness," etc. The N.O. attracts some members who would be accepted no place else. That does not necessarily make the N.O. parishes "more charitable," by the way.
I also think there's something about dedicated movements of any kind -- movements that are not mainstream -- that, because the members are by definition "marginalized" (in numbers), can create a kind of mentality that intensifies the behavior. That is, clinging to the odd behavior is a way of restating their identity or membership. This can be true of other minority movements, and I think there have been articles written about that.
However, again, be careful about assuming that everyone you see at a TLM is a trad. In my parish, because of complex timing and other factors, often the TLM slot is a matter of convenience (work schedules and such), and so the exaggerated displays of piety one sees (for example) are not necessarily a trad-identifier. The people I tend to regard as fellow trads are those who attend the Sunday High Mass and at least express interest in catechetical and/or retreat opportunities offered by the residing trad priest -- or any opportunity to deepen one's spirituality. I have found that there can be a distinctly different population attending the weekday Low Mass, and those (in my own parish) are the "nutter" types.
Quote from: Sempronius on September 12, 2020, 03:48:32 AM
Regarding this thought that "its only a tiny minority that are uncharitable, rude, nutter etc". It doesnt matter have few they are, the point is that they are a natural component to traditionalism.
Same with Islam, its only a tiny minority that are terrorist, but terrorism is a natural component to Islam.
Its also a component to a school parents association, local soccer committee, facebook breastfeeding group, midweek knitting class........you get the point but apparently the trads are the only group who has to be held to account for the few.
Quote from: Miriam_M on September 12, 2020, 12:48:52 AM
There is an irony about his comfort with lecturing (all) trads about charity when he is showing by his comments that he is exhibiting neither charity nor justice.
Thank you.
Quote from: Jayne on September 12, 2020, 08:55:25 AM
Large families are indeed a wonderful thing, but that does not mean that we should judge people based on their family size. To assume that a small family means sinful use of birth control or lack of holiness is the sin of rash judgment.
I don't think this is necessarily what is happening. To say "big families are better than small families" is not to say "that small family is using contraception." Big families are better because more children is better than less children; like more beer is better than less beer and more nachos is better than less nachos. A comment on the desirability of a large quantity of something of value is not the same as judgement against the person providing less of the valuable item.
In many of the lectures/homiiles/mission talks/sermons I have listened to, Fathers Wolf, Relyea, and Ripperger have clearly stated that Trads have issues in regards to being charitable. One such anecdote by Fr Wolf had him furiously chastising a certain laity for running off a woman he had been counseling towards coming back to the Faith. I know personally from experience that trads can be insular. Mrs. Heinrich and I have encountered (by the laity) scowls, looks of incredulity, people leaving our presence, stiffness in disposition, condescension, and just general ignoring. Never have we been asked, were invited or in any way made to feel welcome. "Love bombs" and mariachi band welcomes are certainly not the expectation, but being treated so inconsiderately is really off putting. I contrast this with my former TLM parish, where most of us long timers, ushers, and regulars openly extended the welcome mat to everyone. Many times vacationers mingled comfortably with us and fit right in with gun talk, woman and children yapping, priests knowing pastor from visitor's parish, etc. Heck, I remember a young honeymooning couple hanging out until clean up and the husband, a state trooper from a neighboring state, was willing to offer security for collection deposit. My expectations are too high, I guess. "If you don't like the way you are being treated, consider that maybe you deserve to be treated that way." --St. Theresa of Avila
Quote from: Heinrich on September 13, 2020, 12:23:54 PM
In many of the lectures/homiiles/mission talks/sermons I have listened to, Fathers Wolf, Relyea, and Ripperger have clearly stated that Trads have issues in regards to being charitable. One such anecdote by Fr Wolf had him furiously chastising a certain laity for running off a woman he had been counseling towards coming back to the Faith. I know personally from experience that trads can be insular. Mrs. Heinrich and I have encountered (by the laity) scowls, looks of incredulity, people leaving our presence, stiffness in disposition, condescension, and just general ignoring. Never have we been asked, were invited or in any way made to feel welcome. "Love bombs" and mariachi band welcomes are certainly not the expectation, but being treated so inconsiderately is really off putting. I contrast this with my former TLM parish, where most of us long timers, ushers, and regulars openly extended the welcome mat to everyone. Many times vacationers mingled comfortably with us and fit right in with gun talk, woman and children yapping, priests knowing pastor from visitor's parish, etc. Heck, I remember a young honeymooning couple hanging out until clean up and the husband, a state trooper from a neighboring state, was willing to offer security for collection deposit. My expectations are too high, I guess. "If you don't like the way you are being treated, consider that maybe you deserve to be treated that way." --St. Theresa of Avila
Dare I ask what a "love bomb" is?
Quote from: coffeeandcigarette on September 12, 2020, 09:18:39 PM
To say "big families are better than small families" is not to say "that small family is using contraception."
No, but it IS to say that small families are using contraception when the number of families is large enough to exclude infertility, late marriages etc.
If 1000 Trad families have 5.2 children on average and 1000 NO families have 2.1 then the only major contributing reason is that the NO families are contracepting.
You cannot judge a family. You CAN judge a population of families and furthermore conclude that MOST of them are using contraception, with a difference like that.
Quote from: Fleur-de-Lys on September 13, 2020, 12:44:50 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on September 13, 2020, 12:23:54 PM
In many of the lectures/homiiles/mission talks/sermons I have listened to, Fathers Wolf, Relyea, and Ripperger have clearly stated that Trads have issues in regards to being charitable. One such anecdote by Fr Wolf had him furiously chastising a certain laity for running off a woman he had been counseling towards coming back to the Faith. I know personally from experience that trads can be insular. Mrs. Heinrich and I have encountered (by the laity) scowls, looks of incredulity, people leaving our presence, stiffness in disposition, condescension, and just general ignoring. Never have we been asked, were invited or in any way made to feel welcome. "Love bombs" and mariachi band welcomes are certainly not the expectation, but being treated so inconsiderately is really off putting. I contrast this with my former TLM parish, where most of us long timers, ushers, and regulars openly extended the welcome mat to everyone. Many times vacationers mingled comfortably with us and fit right in with gun talk, woman and children yapping, priests knowing pastor from visitor's parish, etc. Heck, I remember a young honeymooning couple hanging out until clean up and the husband, a state trooper from a neighboring state, was willing to offer security for collection deposit. My expectations are too high, I guess. "If you don't like the way you are being treated, consider that maybe you deserve to be treated that way." --St. Theresa of Avila
Dare I ask what a "love bomb" is?
Never mind. I looked it up. Coupled with "mariachi band" I had envisioned something exploding in glitter and confetti, much more fun than what this actually is.
Quote from: Fleur-de-Lys on September 13, 2020, 12:54:48 PM
Quote from: Fleur-de-Lys on September 13, 2020, 12:44:50 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on September 13, 2020, 12:23:54 PM
In many of the lectures/homiiles/mission talks/sermons I have listened to, Fathers Wolf, Relyea, and Ripperger have clearly stated that Trads have issues in regards to being charitable. One such anecdote by Fr Wolf had him furiously chastising a certain laity for running off a woman he had been counseling towards coming back to the Faith. I know personally from experience that trads can be insular. Mrs. Heinrich and I have encountered (by the laity) scowls, looks of incredulity, people leaving our presence, stiffness in disposition, condescension, and just general ignoring. Never have we been asked, were invited or in any way made to feel welcome. "Love bombs" and mariachi band welcomes are certainly not the expectation, but being treated so inconsiderately is really off putting. I contrast this with my former TLM parish, where most of us long timers, ushers, and regulars openly extended the welcome mat to everyone. Many times vacationers mingled comfortably with us and fit right in with gun talk, woman and children yapping, priests knowing pastor from visitor's parish, etc. Heck, I remember a young honeymooning couple hanging out until clean up and the husband, a state trooper from a neighboring state, was willing to offer security for collection deposit. My expectations are too high, I guess. "If you don't like the way you are being treated, consider that maybe you deserve to be treated that way." --St. Theresa of Avila
Dare I ask what a "love bomb" is?
Never mind. I looked it up. Coupled with "mariachi band" I had envisioned something exploding in glitter and confetti, much more fun than what this actually is.
I think Miriam or Diaduit mentioned it earlier in this thread. I can't claim it, but would like to. I hope the hyperbole was a hit.
Quote from: Heinrich on September 13, 2020, 02:14:48 PM
I think Miriam or Diaduit mentioned it earlier in this thread. I can't claim it, but would like to. I hope the hyperbole was a hit.
Not I. I mentioned neither love bombs (whatever those are; I'm afraid to ask, actually) nor mariachi bands.
Quote from: Heinrich on September 13, 2020, 12:23:54 PM
In many of the lectures/homiiles/mission talks/sermons I have listened to, Fathers Wolf, Relyea, and Ripperger have clearly stated that Trads have issues in regards to being charitable. One such anecdote by Fr Wolf had him furiously chastising a certain laity for running off a woman he had been counseling towards coming back to the Faith. I know personally from experience that trads can be insular. Mrs. Heinrich and I have encountered (by the laity) scowls, looks of incredulity, people leaving our presence, stiffness in disposition, condescension, and just general ignoring. Never have we been asked, were invited or in any way made to feel welcome. "Love bombs" and mariachi band welcomes are certainly not the expectation, but being treated so inconsiderately is really off putting. I contrast this with my former TLM parish, where most of us long timers, ushers, and regulars openly extended the welcome mat to everyone. Many times vacationers mingled comfortably with us and fit right in with gun talk, woman and children yapping, priests knowing pastor from visitor's parish, etc. Heck, I remember a young honeymooning couple hanging out until clean up and the husband, a state trooper from a neighboring state, was willing to offer security for collection deposit. My expectations are too high, I guess. "If you don't like the way you are being treated, consider that maybe you deserve to be treated that way." --St. Theresa of Avila
I would say, Heinrich, that this post proves Fr. R and other complainers to be wrong in their generalizations. You just detailed some differences in trad communities, proving that for the likes of Fr. R and similar others, their data sample is too small.
Let's put the shoe on the other foot.
In my own extensive travels in N.O. communities (at least as wide as Fr. R's travels among trads), I have discovered roughly three broad "kinds" of communities:
1. Groups of which easily half wish they could attend a different Mass (i.e., Traditional) but have not the choice, due to location.
2. Groups who know almost nothing of the Traditional Mass and/or have been told lies about it. (e.g., it is "schismatic" to attend one) and thus are held captive by both their own ignorance -- much of which is not their fault -- and by malevolent rumors. However, those people are trying their best to be faithful Catholics, with the limited information they have.
3. Groups who show, in the majority, by their proud, irreverent, and even offensive behavior at Mass, that they have little regard for the setting of any Mass as anything different from an informal gathering, and have no intention of changing their behavior. They also often ridicule the Traditional Mass (if they know of it), and ridicule anyone who strives for a reverent, more formal Mass setting. (Yeah, that's charitable.)
How would you feel about me if I categorized "those you attend the N.O.M." as:
"proud, irreverent, offensive, mocking, and unaware," and perhaps also "incapable of changing"? (Group #3)
I would say that such a comment would make me just as uncharitable and unaware as those I accuse, since two-thirds of the larger, more encompassing group should not be so categorized. Would you agree?
Priests, being authority figures, are listened to more seriously than a lowly lay woman like me. All the more responsibility they have to watch their own tongues for the effect that umbrella statements can have on
an entire movement that already struggles and still struggles to survive and sustain itself. For example, I'm crazy about Fr. Phil Wolfe; I think he's a lot more likable and approachable than Fr. R, for my own personal taste, but that is just a matter of taste, and others may disagree. Priests like them, who represent the traditionalist movement, should be careful of the way they frame such admonitions.
There is nothing wrong with an admonition. That's what we want our priests to do, if we value authority, which as traditional Catholics we are especially supposed to value. But then add a disclaimer, Father. Add some context: "This criticism is by no means meant to implicate all traditionalists without differentiation. It is to ask you to examine how some of you especially committed and passionate types can come across to visitors, converts, reverts, and newbies. Watch that your vigorous enthusiasm for tradition, exclusively, does not spill over into exclusive attitudes about your community. I only want to speak about this once, and I hope the next time I preach [or visit here] I will not have to bring it up again."
And such priests should also make sure that they have enough direct evidence before they make even that statement. What I have seen as much in trad communities as in N.O. communities is that priests usually don't have time to fact-check every complaint or assertion, and thus, it is very, very common to become vulnerable to calumny when you are not even aware that some hyper-sensitive or even envious person somewhere is going to misinterpret or misjudge an innocent action of yours. What I mean is, one person's definition of charity may not be another person's. Some people define charity as quasi-embarrassing Welcome Mats; other people (I'm of this group) define it as merely 1:1 kindness of the more hidden type. I have not seen such hidden charity absent in any trad community of the several I have been acquainted with. It's just that you will not find 100% of the group, necessarily, exhibiting 1:1 kindness. The difference, perhaps, between me and some others is that I do not expect a lay trad community to resemble a monastery or traditional convent. I expect more variation in virtue, including the virtue of charity.
Quote from: Miriam_M on September 13, 2020, 05:56:13 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on September 13, 2020, 12:23:54 PM
In many of the lectures/homiiles/mission talks/sermons I have listened to, Fathers Wolf, Relyea, and Ripperger have clearly stated that Trads have issues in regards to being charitable. One such anecdote by Fr Wolf had him furiously chastising a certain laity for running off a woman he had been counseling towards coming back to the Faith. I know personally from experience that trads can be insular. Mrs. Heinrich and I have encountered (by the laity) scowls, looks of incredulity, people leaving our presence, stiffness in disposition, condescension, and just general ignoring. Never have we been asked, were invited or in any way made to feel welcome. "Love bombs" and mariachi band welcomes are certainly not the expectation, but being treated so inconsiderately is really off putting. I contrast this with my former TLM parish, where most of us long timers, ushers, and regulars openly extended the welcome mat to everyone. Many times vacationers mingled comfortably with us and fit right in with gun talk, woman and children yapping, priests knowing pastor from visitor's parish, etc. Heck, I remember a young honeymooning couple hanging out until clean up and the husband, a state trooper from a neighboring state, was willing to offer security for collection deposit. My expectations are too high, I guess. "If you don't like the way you are being treated, consider that maybe you deserve to be treated that way." --St. Theresa of Avila
I would say, Heinrich, that this post proves Fr. R and other complainers to be wrong in their generalizations. You just detailed some differences in trad communities, proving that for the likes of Fr. R and similar others, their data sample is too small.
Let's put the shoe on the other foot.
In my own extensive travels in N.O. communities (at least as wide as Fr. R's travels among trads), I have discovered roughly three broad "kinds" of communities:
1. Groups of which easily half wish they could attend a different Mass (i.e., Traditional) but have not the choice, due to location.
2. Groups who know almost nothing of the Traditional Mass and/or have been told lies about it. (e.g., it is "schismatic" to attend one) and thus are held captive by both their own ignorance -- much of which is not their fault -- and by malevolent rumors. However, those people are trying their best to be faithful Catholics, with the limited information they have.
3. Groups who show, in the majority, by their proud, irreverent, and even offensive behavior at Mass, that they have little regard for the setting of any Mass as anything different from an informal gathering, and have no intention of changing their behavior. They also often ridicule the Traditional Mass (if they know of it), and ridicule anyone who strives for a reverent, more formal Mass setting. (Yeah, that's charitable.)
How would you feel about me if I categorized "those you attend the N.O.M." as:
"proud, irreverent, offensive, mocking, and unaware," and perhaps also "incapable of changing"? (Group #3)
I would say that such a comment would make me just as uncharitable and unaware as those I accuse, since two-thirds of the larger, more encompassing group should not be so categorized. Would you agree?
Priests, being authority figures, are listened to more seriously than a lowly lay woman like me. All the more responsibility they have to watch their own tongues for the effect that umbrella statements can have on an entire movement that already struggles and still struggles to survive and sustain itself. For example, I'm crazy about Fr. Phil Wolfe; I think he's a lot more likable and approachable than Fr. R, for my own personal taste, but that is just a matter of taste, and others may disagree. Priests like them, who represent the traditionalist movement, should be careful of the way they frame such admonitions.
There is nothing wrong with an admonition. That's what we want our priests to do, if we value authority, which as traditional Catholics we are especially supposed to value. But then add a disclaimer, Father. Add some context: "This criticism is by no means meant to implicate all traditionalists without differentiation. It is to ask you to examine how some of you especially committed and passionate types can come across to visitors, converts, reverts, and newbies. Watch that your vigorous enthusiasm for tradition, exclusively, does not spill over into exclusive attitudes about your community. I only want to speak about this once, and I hope the next time I preach [or visit here] I will not have to bring it up again."
And such priests should also make sure that they have enough direct evidence before they make even that statement. What I have seen as much in trad communities as in N.O. communities is that priests usually don't have time to fact-check every complaint or assertion, and thus, it is very, very common to become vulnerable to calumny when you are not even aware that some hyper-sensitive or even envious person somewhere is going to misinterpret or misjudge an innocent action of yours. What I mean is, one person's definition of charity may not be another person's. Some people define charity as quasi-embarrassing Welcome Mats; other people (I'm of this group) define it as merely 1:1 kindness of the more hidden type. I have not seen such hidden charity absent in any trad community of the several I have been acquainted with. It's just that you will not find 100% of the group, necessarily, exhibiting 1:1 kindness. The difference, perhaps, between me and some others is that I do not expect a lay trad community to resemble a monastery or traditional convent. I expect more variation in virtue, including the virtue of charity.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I aired my discontent and that's where I will leave it. I am the author of my own salvation and if the Lord wants Mrs. Heinrich and me to have new chums, it will be.