Is it possible to obtain a daily grace not to sin that day?

Started by Xavier, August 27, 2018, 11:03:08 PM

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Xavier

Do you think, dear friends, it is possible to spend most, or at least, some of the rest of the days of our lives without sin, even venial sin?

We had a thread a while ago discussing whether it is possible to spend the rest of one's life without venial sin. It seems that since it is a special grace to be without venial sin, as a canon in Trent says, (as certainly Our Lady was, and as a pious Tradition holds that both St. Joseph and St. John the Baptist - sanctified in the womb in the 6th month - were for the whole of their lives; some Saints who formerly were non-Christians or sinners may have been for the rest of their lives, after becoming converted, or after receiving special grace), therefore the grace cannot be obtained by all, but only by some.

But maybe that's the wrong way to approach the question.

In the Te Deum, we have the prayer, "Dignáre, Dómine, die isto sine peccáto nos custodíre." (Deign, O Lord, to keep us this day without sin.) Surely, as St. Thomas says, it is impossible the Church bids us to do something in vain; therefore, it is impossible that the Church would ask us to pray for a grace which is absolutely impossible to obtain. The conclusion must be, it is possible, but very difficult, to obtain that daily grace. And it needs to be asked with great faith, and great perseverance, and asked very frequently, daily, or even more than daily, with great desire, if we truly wish to obtain it.

Thus, as we ask for our daily Bread, which could be understood both of material food and of Holy Communion, as well as of the daily graces we need each day, we could and should ask daily (possibly and preferably at the beginning and end of day perhaps?) for the grace not to sin that day.

Of course, we can and should ask for forgiveness also! But prevention is better than cure.  ;D

The like conclusion seems to follow from the Divine Liturgy of St. James the Just, Cousin Brother of the Lord, and First Catholic Bishop of Jerusalem, "Let us all entreat from the Lord, that we may pass the whole day, perfect, holy, peaceful, and without sin ... Let us commend ourselves and one another, and our whole life, to Christ our God ... Commemorating our all-holy, pure, most glorious, blessed Lady, the God-Mother and Ever-Virgin Mary, and all the saints that have been well-pleasing to You since the world began, let us devote ourselves, and one another, and our whole life, to Christ our God" From: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0717.htm

Hence, it seems good to commend the rest of the day to Our Lord and Our Lady asking Them for the grace not to sin that day; as well as the whole of our lives asking Them for the grace to sin no more. Your thoughts, dear friends?
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

Matto

Quote from: Xavier on August 27, 2018, 11:03:08 PMDo you think, dear friends, it is possible to spend most, or at least, some of the rest of the days of our lives without sin, even venial sin?
I don't see why it would be impossible to avoid venial sin for "some" days or even "most" days. I figure many of the saints have done this. Very difficult, sure, but not impossible. I would like to believe it is possible for everyone to become saintly. Aren't we supposed to be given graces from God to avoid sins? So if we cooperate with these graces shouldn't we be able to avoid sins? I figure if we receive the sacraments regularly it should keep us from sin and bring us closer to Jesus and the more we receive the sacraments the less frequently we should sin. If I were an unbeliever and I thought about the Catholic belief in the Blessed Sacrament I would say "So you really believe that the Eucharist is the infinitely perfect God come down to Earth to dwell in your souls? If that is true and you receive Him then you should become perfect like God himself and never sin again." Apparently it doesn't usually work that way.

Edit: I mean achieving that goal for "some" days doesn't seem too difficult but "most" seems imposing.
I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..

Xavier

Nice, Matto, am happy you think it can be done some days. Even if we could manage just to go a few days of our lives without sin, that would be very good for us at our Judgment. So saying those prayers in the Liturgy and the Te Deum asking specifically for the grace not to sin that day many times a day would be well worth it.

The text of Prov 24:16 "For a just man shall fall seven times and shall rise again" is often pointed to as an indication that even Christians habitually in the state of grace for a long time (without habitual mortal sin) still may fall into daily venial sins frequently and thus still require significant degrees of purification. If someone has conquered mortal sins completely, he will be in the second stage of the spiritual life, the illuminative way of proficients. To advance to the third stage - which is mentioned by St. John of the Cross, Fr. G-L etc as the unitive way of the perfect - still greater and sustained efforts at our personal sanctification would be required. It's probably only in this third age of the interior life that we can hope to spend many - most, perhaps, after a point if we make very strenous efforts on ourselves? - days of our lives without sin.

It's not impossible but something that may take years, after much purification, constant prayer, and frequent reception of the Sacraments. But the important thing is never to give up as this must be a lifelong struggle. As long as each day we're growing in grace and becoming more detached from the world, loving God more and growing deeper in union with Him, we should get there in the end.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

Quaremerepulisti

Quote from: Xavier on August 27, 2018, 11:03:08 PM
Do you think, dear friends, it is possible to spend most, or at least, some of the rest of the days of our lives without sin, even venial sin?

Ah, the problem of moral evil, which Catholic theology and doctrine simply cannot handle.  It's been a while since the last predestination dust-up (granted I've been away for a while).

QuoteWe had a thread a while ago discussing whether it is possible to spend the rest of one's life without venial sin. It seems that since it is a special grace to be without venial sin, as a canon in Trent says, (as certainly Our Lady was, and as a pious Tradition holds that both St. Joseph and St. John the Baptist - sanctified in the womb in the 6th month - were for the whole of their lives; some Saints who formerly were non-Christians or sinners may have been for the rest of their lives, after becoming converted, or after receiving special grace), therefore the grace cannot be obtained by all, but only by some.

Ah, so the grace cannot be obtained by all, but yet God blames them for not obtaining it.

And of course, grace isn't "obtained" in the strict sense, it's "given".  So God blames people for a lack of grace which He failed to give.

QuoteBut maybe that's the wrong way to approach the question.

Ya think?

QuoteIn the Te Deum, we have the prayer, "Dignáre, Dómine, die isto sine peccáto nos custodíre." (Deign, O Lord, to keep us this day without sin.) Surely, as St. Thomas says, it is impossible the Church bids us to do something in vain; therefore, it is impossible that the Church would ask us to pray for a grace which is absolutely impossible to obtain. The conclusion must be, it is possible, but very difficult, to obtain that daily grace. And it needs to be asked with great faith, and great perseverance, and asked very frequently, daily, or even more than daily, with great desire, if we truly wish to obtain it.

How can it be "difficult to obtain" a grace when God could grant it by a simple act of His will?  Whatever reasons you can concoct for that not to be "possible", God could remove those, too, via an act of His will.

Maybe you want to blame people who don't pray this but making this prayer is itself a grace.

Here's my prayer:

God, if you don't want me to sin, see to it that I don't sin.  If your response is that "cooperation" with grace is necessary, then will that I cooperate.  If you fail to do so, then logic dictates that You are responsible, notwithstanding all the torturous sophistries of Thomists that this is not the case.  And if You allow sin precisely so that you will be able to punish people in hell, then You are evil and I refuse to serve You as a matter of principle - You do not exist and the true God must be elsewhere.

QuoteHence, it seems good to commend the rest of the day to Our Lord and Our Lady asking Them for the grace not to sin that day; as well as the whole of our lives asking Them for the grace to sin no more. Your thoughts, dear friends?

Yeah.  But you still face the problem of God blaming people for graces He refuses to grant.

John Lamb

Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on September 01, 2018, 05:14:53 PMHere's my prayer:

God, if you don't want me to sin, see to it that I don't sin.  If your response is that "cooperation" with grace is necessary, then will that I cooperate.  If you fail to do so, then logic dictates that You are responsible, notwithstanding all the torturous sophistries of Thomists that this is not the case.  And if You allow sin precisely so that you will be able to punish people in hell, then You are evil and I refuse to serve You as a matter of principle - You do not exist and the true God must be elsewhere.

Here's mine:

God, my will is so defective and inclines so certainly towards evil that unless you move it by your grace, I will certainly be damned. I know that I've resisted countless graces in my life, and that unless you efficaciously move my will I cannot co-operate with any of them. I know that your grace is entirely gratuitous and comes from your mercy; nevertheless, if you were to choose to leave me in the darkness of my own will which resists your grace, and allow me to follow my own path which leads to damnation, you would be entirely just in doing so and I would have only myself to blame, and at the very least I would be able to say that I lived as I chose to live, even if I lived wickedly and had to be punished eternally for it. Still, by your grace, I do not wish to be damned but wish to do your will and be saved, and I ask you to increase this grace and confirm me in it to the very end. I have nothing of myself, but my salvation depends totally on your mercy & your favour, for which I ask now and at the hour of my death. Amen.

"I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart."
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – St. Paul

John Lamb

I think to live without deliberate / malicious venial sins should be the goal of all Christians without exception. To live without venial sin altogether, even those which are in a sense indeliberate and caused by frailty, is an extraordinary grace which I'm not sure we can reasonably hope to have in this life, even though we should ask God to help us in our infirmity. I think God allows even the saints to stumble through infirmity in order to keep them humble: "a just man falleth seven times."
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – St. Paul

james.rogerson

Perhaps, Quare, Luther solved the problem. He simply abolished free will.

John Lamb

"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – St. Paul

Xavier

Quote from: QMRAh, the problem of moral evil, which Catholic theology and doctrine simply cannot handle.

Wrong from the get-go. This was a practical discussion among traditional Catholics of how to avoid the moral evil we cause when we sin (which atheism and the materialistic theories you inevitably favor despite your occasional denials of the same cannot even begin to account for) and how to grow in grace. Catholic theology handles sin very well by teaching we have a soul and are created with free will. Materialistic theories like that of Sam Harris deny we even have free will; most evolutionist philosophers deny there is an objective moral law. They cannot account for conscience and knowledge of the natural law, so theirs is the problem of moral evil. You're in bad company with your attacks on "Catholic theology and doctrine".

QuoteHow can it be "difficult to obtain" a grace when God could grant it by a simple act of His will?  Whatever reasons you can concoct for that not to be "possible", God could remove those, too, via an act of His will.

Not at all. You are bound to work to obtain the grace, and God wills the dispensation of graces to be dependent on the serious, sincere efforts you make to grow in the grace already received. If you are justified, he will give you the grace of final perseverance, and therefore of salvation, if you pray, work, receive the Sacraments, grow in the knowledge and love of God, love your neighbor, and sincerely and humbly desire and request this grace from Him, which you can obtain from Him alone. God Almighty, King of kings, does not need to remove anything nor is He going to do so at your will, He gives us trials so that we may grow in merit and learn to triumph as Christ triumphed through them.

QuoteGod, if you don't want me to sin, see to it that I don't sin.  If your response is that "cooperation" with grace is necessary, then will that I cooperate.

This is not a prayer so much as it is an abdication of responsibility and a practical denial of your own free will. God gives you the grace to perform supernatural actions, as He gives wings to a bird that it may fly. He will produce the effect in and through you, as a vine produces fruit through its branch, to the extent you fully surrender to His will and desire it to be brought to completion in you. If you resist through your own fault, or grow slothful in seeking and doing His will, His grace will become sterile because you resisted it.

You, who like all of us, are but an infinitesimal speck of dust in this vast universe, wish to speak back temerariously against the Almighty, Who is Infinite Goodness. The Almighty gains nothing if you serve Him. He loses nothing if you do not serve. You lose everything if you have not become one with Him by sanctifying grace when this life is past. You gain everything if you have. It is not because He has any need to be served by us, but simply out of His superabundant love, that He calls us to union with Him, and sends others to remind us it is to our own benefit that we love Him, and become one with Him by grace. In the state of grace, He has willed you can merit more grace.

It is morally impossible for a very fat person to become perfectly fit overnight. He can do so, but it will take very serious effort on his part. It is not absolutely impossible to avoid venial sin, it depends on the stage one is in the spiritual life. If one has advanced to the third stage, one will much more be able to do it. St. John the Baptist lived as an ascetic, St. Joseph chose a humble, hidden life as a carpenter. Many sacrifices are necessary and frequently long purification for us who have already sinned if we wish to spend the rest of our lives without sin. This op thread wasn't meant to be a debate thread at all but a practical one on the way to live a Christian life.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

Quaremerepulisti

Despite all the pious rhetoric, and attempts to psychologically manipulate through guilt, you don't actually have an answer for the issues raised. 

Quote from: Xavier on September 03, 2018, 07:00:36 AM
Catholic theology handles sin very well by teaching we have a soul and are created with free will.

There's more to the question than that, as you well know, and what materialists and "evolutionists" say is irrelevant to this discussion.

Quote
QuoteHow can it be "difficult to obtain" a grace when God could grant it by a simple act of His will?  Whatever reasons you can concoct for that not to be "possible", God could remove those, too, via an act of His will.

Not at all.

Yes, absolutely, if God is omnipotent.  Moreover, you completely miss the point that graces are not "obtained", they are "granted"; the very word "grace" in itself implies that.

QuoteYou are bound to work to obtain the grace, and God wills the dispensation of graces to be dependent on the serious, sincere efforts you make to grow in the grace already received.

But that "work" and "serious, sincere effort" must itself also be graces which God grants.

QuoteIf you are justified, he will give you the grace of final perseverance, and therefore of salvation, if you pray, work, receive the Sacraments, grow in the knowledge and love of God, love your neighbor, and sincerely and humbly desire and request this grace from Him, which you can obtain from Him alone.

But that justification, prayer, work, and receiving the Sacraments are also graces which God must grant.

QuoteGod Almighty, King of kings, does not need to remove anything nor is He going to do so at your will, He gives us trials so that we may grow in merit and learn to triumph as Christ triumphed through them.

So God gives us trials and is therefore the source of evil, but is irreproachable anyway because He is Almighty.  And you wonder why I don't take you any more seriously in matters of theology than natural science?

Quote
QuoteGod, if you don't want me to sin, see to it that I don't sin.  If your response is that "cooperation" with grace is necessary, then will that I cooperate.

This is not a prayer so much as it is an abdication of responsibility and a practical denial of your own free will. God gives you the grace to perform supernatural actions, as He gives wings to a bird that it may fly.

Yes, but you see He does more than that when the bird flies.  He not only gives the bird the potency of flight (wings), but when the bird flies, He is the first mover moving the bird from potentially flying to actually flying.

So, if cooperation with grace is necessary, then that must be a grace God grants, and therefore something God wills.  If someone doesn't cooperate, (I won't use the word "because" here), God's refusal to grant that grace is ontologically precedent to that.

And just what is wrong with prayer for cooperation with grace?

QuoteHe will produce the effect in and through you, as a vine produces fruit through its branch, to the extent you fully surrender to His will and desire it to be brought to completion in you. If you resist through your own fault, or grow slothful in seeking and doing His will, His grace will become sterile because you resisted it.

But again, "full surrender" and "desire" are also graces that must be granted by God.

You can take this back however many steps you like.

No matter how you slice it, with evil you end up with a grace God could have granted but didn't, ontologically prior to whatever bad effect.

QuoteYou, who like all of us, are but an infinitesimal speck of dust in this vast universe, wish to speak back temerariously against the Almighty, Who is Infinite Goodness.

No, I'm speaking back "temerariously" against (western) Catholic theology and philosophy, which wishes to deny God responsibility for evil on the pretext He gave wings to the bird, without willing that it fly (a necessary and sufficient condition for flight), and then blaming it for not flying.

You can attempt to shoot the messenger all you like, but what I said above is true and irrefutable, if you buy the western Catholic theological approach.

QuoteThe Almighty gains nothing if you serve Him. He loses nothing if you do not serve. You lose everything if you have not become one with Him by sanctifying grace when this life is past. You gain everything if you have. It is not because He has any need to be served by us, but simply out of His superabundant love, that He calls us to union with Him, and sends others to remind us it is to our own benefit that we love Him, and become one with Him by grace. In the state of grace, He has willed you can merit more grace.

But "His superabundant love" must exist in reality and not merely be a convenient fiction or pretext for serving one who is in reality a tyrant.

Thomism has it that, for those who do love and serve Him, it is because they were loved by God with a special love of predilection, since God's love is the cause of goodness in things.  His "superabundant" love doesn't, in fact, then, exist for everyone else; His "love" exists just enough to keep them in existence in hell.  The primary fault, then, is His own lack of love and no one else's.  (And please don't bring up Molinism.  It retains these problems while adding plenty more of its own.)

QuoteIt is morally impossible for a very fat person to become perfectly fit overnight. He can do so, but it will take very serious effort on his part. It is not absolutely impossible to avoid venial sin, it depends on the stage one is in the spiritual life. If one has advanced to the third stage, one will much more be able to do it. St. John the Baptist lived as an ascetic, St. Joseph chose a humble, hidden life as a carpenter. Many sacrifices are necessary and frequently long purification for us who have already sinned if we wish to spend the rest of our lives without sin. This op thread wasn't meant to be a debate thread at all but a practical one on the way to live a Christian life.

You're talking about purification from attachments here.  But if God wills you to be so purified, then purified you will be.

Again, there's no real answer for any of this, just as there's no real way to shoehorn the scientific data into a YEC geocentric cosmos.  The supernatural world is, just as the natural world, radically different than the medievals thought.


Sempronius

In my readings of saints I have never come across a saint that had habitual venial sins, or inconsistencies. Does anybody have examples of saints that "fell" a couple of times, without managing to keep those flaws in check?

Michael Wilson

Quote from: Sempronius on September 03, 2018, 08:58:52 AM
In my readings of saints I have never come across a saint that had habitual venial sins, or inconsistencies. Does anybody have examples of saints that "fell" a couple of times, without managing to keep those flaws in check?
Saints come in all "shapes and sizes"; you have someone like St. Aloysius Gonzaga, who's "big sin" in life, was when he was 5 or 6 and some of the soldiers in the camp, taught him swear words, which he used until he was told that it was wrong. You also have a St. Camilus of Lellis, a soldier, gambler, drunkard, etc. etc. That became converted (I think a couple of times); had to work really hard to overcome his bad habits and eventually became a priest, a founder of a religious community etc. Its not how you start, its how you finish.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Greg

I have some days where i get up, kiss the wife, brush my teeth, walk kids to school and then spend all day 10 hours writing a proposal, eat, take a dump, brush my teeth, say an Our Father and three Hail Marys and go to bed.  That is it.  No TV, no internet, no possibility to sin.

Not most days, but certainly SOME days are like this.
Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.

abc123

Quote from: Greg on September 03, 2018, 09:07:16 AM
I have some days where i get up, kiss the wife, brush my teeth, walk kids to school and then spend all day 10 hours writing a proposal, eat, take a dump, brush my teeth, say an Our Father and three Hail Marys and go to bed.  That is it.  No TV, no internet, no possibility to sin.

Not most days, but certainly SOME days are like this.

Depends on your standard. Are you telling me that in the 10 hours you write a proposal not a single uncharitable, angry, or selfish thought enters your mind? Scripture tells us that our hearts and minds are constantly bending toward wickedness. Just because you don't dwell on lust or take the Lord's name in vain doesn't mean that your thoughts or actions are not stained.

The just man falls 7 times a day. I am very suspicious of anyone who claims to be able to go the entire day without sinning. Perhaps in making such a statement you have already fallen into Pride.

Non Nobis

#14
Quote from: Greg on September 03, 2018, 09:07:16 AM
I have some days where i get up, kiss the wife, brush my teeth, walk kids to school and then spend all day 10 hours writing a proposal, eat, take a dump, brush my teeth, say an Our Father and three Hail Marys and go to bed.  That is it.  No TV, no internet, no possibility to sin.

Not most days, but certainly SOME days are like this.

No uncharitable or proud thoughts?  Do you even admit such things are possible for you? They sure are for me, possible and way too frequent. At least involuntary venial sins - which I believe often implies SOME level of voluntariness in the past.

Oops, I see abc123 already answered this better than I did!
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!