Encouraging Words

[Jayne]

The encouraging words are within the traditional prayers of the Church and the frequent practice of the (traditional forms, especially) sacraments, because it is grace that encourages, and our attempts at self-reliance and rationalistic understanding that discourages. 

I think this is the key.  When a person talks a lot about "critical thinking" or "using common sense" it is a danger sign.

[bigbadtrad]

That is why I hate Jayne with a passion because she embodies this. 

You might want to reconsider your position as a man and father if this is your attitude. It's disgusting that you would write this about someone who doesn't live near you, you don't know personally, and isn't intertwined in your life.

Jayne may have spent time defending an indefensible position but guess what? She's humble enough to admit it was a mistake. Would it be better if she stayed where she was? Instead she grew in humility and is a wonderful EXAMPLE to people (including me) of what it was to make mistakes but publicly admit it.

I've never written to Jayne personally, nor do I know her, but you are disgraceful. You should applaud how she's writing to help people BUT NO you took this time to humiliate her like a bully who never learned compassion.

We should imitate you. We should of think of 100 reasons why Catholicism is false and show why people are wrong instead of why it's right. We should spend our time repeating hackneyed arguments with examples that are ridiculous to hurt and undermine the faith of others. That's courageous.

And all on a Catholic message board, a TRADITIONAL one. This place should be shut down if this is tolerated.

I ask the moderator the following:
Why is Greg allowed to do nothing but undermine the faith the vast majority of the time? It used to be a mortal sin to read the writings of those who write against the Church, and I don't mean the abuses of churchmen, but to write openly against miracles, dogmas, and doctrine.
Why is Greg allowed to write PH - uck?
Why are Orthodox people here to secretly make converts?
Why do you use the term "cuck" which is a vicious and vile expression which is perverse?

Let's pretend Padre Pio came here, what would he say? We've lost our faith if we pretend any saint would find the language and viciousness permissible. Let's be more real and realize what we write is seen by Our Blessed Savior or His Precious Mother. If you lost your faith then fine, but if you still claim you have it God sees everything where He will judge every word.

[Carleendiane]

JP2, Blessed Paul 6, blessed John 23,  are terrible reps for the Church.

[Jayne]

Yes, very good question, Jayne. To help our brothers and sisters who have fallen see the light again is a binding duty on all Catholics, at least by prayer, and also if possible by helping clarify some doubts they may have. My personal opinion is such doubts could be raised in a private sub forum and those alone who have doubts or are ready to answer them can post there. In this way, the Faith of other Catholics will not be disturbed. A certain someone has been questioning Christianity for a long time now, and that unfortunately has had a ruinous influence on the souls of others as well; that wouldn't have been the case if it was raised and answered in private.

I agree that there should be limits on how much people should be publicly discuss their doubts.  I am not sure that a sub-forum is the best way to implement this,  I think that PMs are probably better. 

Another good thing would be explicit prayers for apostate forum members and those struggling with their faith.  I tend to just vaguely pray "for the forum"  and I think it would be better to specify this.

[Greg]

That is why I hate Jayne with a passion because she embodies this. 

You might want to reconsider your position as a man and father if this is your attitude. It's disgusting that you would write this about someone who doesn't live near you, you don't know personally, and isn't intertwined in your life.

How well do you know Pope Francis?

Or Joe Stalin.

And yet I am certain you have strong opinions on both of these men.

You don't need to be in physical proximity of someone to know them.  Read what they write and observe their behavior over a long period and you can know them well enough.

[Greg]

There should be limits on how much people should be publicly discuss their doubts.

Surely those limits would include Arch. Marcel Lefebvre consecrating 4 Bishops and repeatedly expressing his doubts very publicly about newchurch.

Yet without his free-thinking (and action against direct orders) we wouldn't have a forum.  We'd either be absorbed into the borg-church or become Russian Orthodox.

If you can square the religious liberty paradox then go ahead.  I'm listening.

[mikemac]

Kaesekopf if you want this forum to be just for apostates and heretics then continue to do what you have been doing to prevent it.  Nothing.

[Habitual_Ritual]

To no longer want to be Catholic is to no longer desire happiness. The Church is merely God's bark and vehicle that helps one reach the goal of eternal happiness. If you want to get off the happy-boat, that's on you. The problem is that some people don't like the bumpy ride, the tossing and throwing of the waves along the way. They thought the journey would be sweetness and light, with shuffle board and cocktails along the way, and completely forgot about the destination.

[Habitual_Ritual]

I like the idea of a sub-forum for apostates. You could call it 'Dante's Inferno'

[Habitual_Ritual]

I would have thought that it made the Resurrection pointless.  "Why bother to rise from the dead if you are going to abandon us again in a month or so?" would have been my attitude.  I would not have been able to figure out why the Ascension was a good thing at the time it happened

That's why Pentecost soon followed on from the Ascension, to the fill the gaps of knowledge and Faith

[abc123]

They thought the journey would be sweetness and light, with shuffle board and cocktails along the way, and completely forgot about the destination.

A mind and soul reader. I applaud your abilities, sir!

[Greg]

We certainly need a gap filler soon as well.

[Miriam_M]

They thought the journey would be sweetness and light, with shuffle board and cocktails along the way, and completely forgot about the destination.

A mind and soul reader. I applaud your abilities, sir!

How are you any less of a mind and soul reader by claiming that those who remain in the Roman Church must be so stupid as to believe the propaganda of the neo-caths that the Church began in 1962?  Those who were catechized in Tradition know the opposite.

I think it's fair to repeat the stated remarks of others (whether publicly on a forum or individually IRL) if and when such believers or sudden non-believers state the reasons for their positions, or show how shallow or narrow their reasons for adhering or leaving are.  But that's a different thing than making assumptions about a level of knowledge and depth of spirituality, particularly about entire groups of strangers rather than from direct testimony of individuals.

[Miriam_M]

Would you accuse various members of this forum (who have left the RCC) of having a weak foundation in catechesis?  I wouldn't.

Reread the first 6 words in my Reply #10, please.

Separately, regarding forums,
As to any poster on any forum who declares a desire or a fact of leaving the Roman Church, I would "accuse" (observe) that the person has a weak foundation in catechesis only if it's quite obvious from the poster's own words about what he/she believes, understands, and interprets about the faith.  I never assume a level of catechesis that is not apparent from posting history and/or from the poster's own acknowledgement of a weak level of knowledge.

[abc123]

They thought the journey would be sweetness and light, with shuffle board and cocktails along the way, and completely forgot about the destination.

A mind and soul reader. I applaud your abilities, sir!

How are you any less of a mind and soul reader by claiming that those who remain in the Roman Church must be so stupid as to believe the propaganda of the neo-caths that the Church began in 1962?  Those who were catechized in Tradition know the opposite.

I would submit that believing that someone has been duped does not imply that they are of ill will, hence I do not pretend to know what is in the mind and heart of one who chooses to stay in the Roman church.

On the other hand those of us who have made the painful but necessary decision to leave are accused of not wanting happiness, not loving Christ or wanting an easy road. One who makes such a statement takes upon themselves the ability to read the heart and will of one who has made that decision.

It may shock some to know that we didn't wake up one morning and decide to leave. For most of us it was a culmination of years of anguish trying to solve the, at least to us, unsolvable.