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General News and Discussion / Re: QAnon Exposed as An Intel Psyop
« Last post by dellery on Today at 06:47:04 PM »
Oh I get it. We have accepted that 9/11 must be false and the moon landings must have been faked. Therefore Qanon could not possibly be real.

Qanon is not real, but the above is how a stupid person would reason.

You reason the same way fwiw.
"Gnosticism is a conspiracy, therefore all conspiracies are a gnostic conspiracy."

lol. The awareness of a stone.
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Quare stated:
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Fine, but she could still obtain unfrustrable (infallibly efficacious) graces even in this system (or in Fr. Marin-Sola's) in theory.  Again, either she can't or she won't.

Now, I ask you, what good parent, seeing that her child is struck with an awful disease, would choose a fallible ()and in fact quite often inefficacious) remedy over an infallible one.
re. unfrustrable graces: God could override man's free will in any system and therefore achieve 100% salvation; Our Lady could also attain this; but this is an extraordinary grace; but as Fr. Most explained the "extraordinary will never become ordinary"; so if there are people that have received this grace, it is through the offices of Our Lady; but it will never be bestowed on all men all the time, or else there would be no free will. 
re. Short end: No soul is lost through the lack of graces and care bestowed on them by Our Lady. So there is no "Short end"; only Long and even longer.
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General News and Discussion / Re: QAnon Exposed as An Intel Psyop
« Last post by Lambda Phage on Today at 04:53:34 PM »
Oh I get it. We have accepted that 9/11 must be false and the moon landings must have been faked. Therefore Qanon could not possibly be real.

Qanon is not real, but the above is how a stupid person would reason.
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That is correct as far as Thom./Mol. Goes; but as Fr. Most demonstrated they missed the mark. That is also what you argued in the various "grace" threads; Men can reject the grace or not reject the grace, in the second case, God will send them a second grace which will move them to accept the grace; this eliminates the "infinite egress" argument.

Fine, but she could still obtain unfrustrable (infallibly efficacious) graces even in this system (or in Fr. Marin-Sola's) in theory.  Again, either she can't or she won't.

Now, I ask you, what good parent, seeing that her child is struck with an awful disease, would choose a fallible ()and in fact quite often inefficacious) remedy over an infallible one.


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The probability of salvation for each man should begin at 50-50; but as time goes by and graces are not rejected/accepted the chances increase to the point of 1. A infant that is Baptized has a greater chance than one  that is not; It is our Lady that obtained for him this grace; the same for being born in a Catholic family etc. etc. The intervention of Our Lady obtains many of the graces that increase our chances of reaching one; for example the Brown Scapular; Miraculous Medal etc. But not all men will ever be saved, because even a person who has led a good life can throw it away, by rejecting the graces offered. The Catholic parents rejected the graces of the faith; or to have their child Baptized etc. etc.

IOW, some people just draw the short end of the stick in the salvation lottery I guess.

"Most theologians of both major warring camps have taken it for granted that both predestination and reprobation must be decreed at the same stage of the process, that is, both must be before, or both must be after consideration of merits and demerits. The reason is, they say, that if a man is not predestined, he is reprobated, and if he is not reprobated, he is predestined. "
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That is correct as far as Thom./Mol. Goes; but as Fr. Most demonstrated they missed the mark. That is also what you argued in the various "grace" threads; Men can reject the grace or not reject the grace, in the second case, God will send them a second grace which will move them to accept the grace; this eliminates the "infinite egress" argument.

Fine, but she could still obtain unfrustrable (infallibly efficacious) graces even in this system (or in Fr. Marin-Sola's) in theory.  Again, either she can't or she won't.

Now, I ask you, what good parent, seeing that her child is struck with an awful disease, would choose a fallible ()and in fact quite often inefficacious) remedy over an infallible one.


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The probability of salvation for each man should begin at 50-50; but as time goes by and graces are not rejected/accepted the chances increase to the point of 1. A infant that is Baptized has a greater chance than one  that is not; It is our Lady that obtained for him this grace; the same for being born in a Catholic family etc. etc. The intervention of Our Lady obtains many of the graces that increase our chances of reaching one; for example the Brown Scapular; Miraculous Medal etc. But not all men will ever be saved, because even a person who has led a good life can throw it away, by rejecting the graces offered. The Catholic parents rejected the graces of the faith; or to have their child Baptized etc. etc.

IOW, some people just draw the short end of the stick in the salvation lottery I guess.
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Xavier stated:
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When Jesus in Holy Mass is affronted and when in Holy Communion He is received sacrilegously, would you say it pained Him then, or that it still pains Him now in this moment of time? Imho, in heaven, He doesn't suffer. But in the Eucharist, where He is present now, there He really suffers even now. Of course these are mysteries. At any rate, as St. Alphonsus says, Jesus is the King of Martyrs and His is the greatest. Mary is Queen and Hers is next to His.
No, Jesus doesn't suffer now from the affronts to the Blessed Eucharist, because Jesus is present in the sacred species as He is in Heaven; viz. In the state of Glorification. He did however suffer from these injuries while He lived on Earth, because of His divine nature, He could see the future insults and miss use of the Sacrament.
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Sacrae Theologiae Summa IIIA, pg. 450:
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Thesis 10. The Blessed Virgin Mary participated in accomplishing the work of redemption principally by her virginal consent and by her maternal compassion.
166. Definition of terms

……..“Maternal Compassion,” that is, participation in the sorrows of Christ, which Mary had especially near the cross of Jesus.
Therefore we affirm that both the consent of the Virgin and the compassion of the Mother had true, moral and immediate causality in the work of redemption, together with the acts of Christ himself but subordinate to and dependent on his acts.
Pg. 453.
173. Doctrine of the Church.
Pius VII (In Bover, Soteriologia Mariana 453); The Christian faithful really owe reverence to the Bl. Virgin Mary,....those intense sufferings that She, while standing near the cross of Jesus, endured with singular and invincible fortitude and constancy and which She offered to the Eternal Father for their salvation.”
 2)Leo XIII (Iucunda semper): She took part in the laborious expiation made by her Son for the sins of the world. It is certain that she suffered in the very depths of her soul with His most bitter sufferings and His torments. Moreover, it was before the eyes of Mary that was to be finishes the Divine Sacrifice for which she had borne and brought up the Victim...There stood by the Cross of Jesus, his Mother, who, in a miracle of Charity, so that she might receive us as her sons, offered generously to Divine Justice her own Son, and died in her heart with Him, stabbed with the sword of sorrow.
3) St. Pius X (Ad diem illum): When the extreme hour of the Son came, beside the Cross of Jesus there stood Mary His Mother, not merely occupied in contemplating the cruel spectacle, but rejoicing that her only Son was offered for the salvation of mankind, and so entirely participating in HIs Passion, that if it had been possible she would have gladly borne all the torments that her Son bore. And from this community of will and suffering between Christ and Mary she merited to become most worthily the Reparatrix of the lost world and Dispensatrix of all the gifts that our Savior purchased for us by His Death and by His Blood.
4) Benedict XV (Inter Sodalicia):(She)... immolated her Son to placate the Divine Justice as much as she could, that it can be rightly said that She along with Christ redeemed the human race.
5) Pius XI (Explorata res est)The sorrowful Virgin participated with Christ in the work of redemption…(Prayer at the end of the Jubilee Year; L’Osservatore Romano, 29-30 April 1935) O Mother of piety and mercy, who, as compassionate and corredemptrix stood by your sweet Son as he was accomplishing on the wood of the Cross the redemption of the human race….
6. Pius XII (Mistici Corporis)”It was she…, always most intimately united with her Son, offered HIm on Golgotha to the Eternal Father….
455:
174 Please not concerning all of these texts: In them a) the connection between Mary’s compassion and the redemption is affirmed; b) This connection is of such a nature that because of it she is rightly called the corredemptrix; c) Therefore the fruits of the redemption and of Mary’s compassion are recounted in the manner of one and the same thing.
Therefore when the Church instituted the feasts commemorating the compassion of our Lady, she was also proclaiming the doctrine of her role as co-redemptrix.
 

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The Coffee Pot / Re: To what are you currently listening?
« Last post by maryslittlegarden on Today at 04:00:24 PM »
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Quare state:
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Then she could likewise utter a prayer that they don't, in fact, refuse those graces, since (according to standard treatises on grace, regardless of whether you accept Thomism or Molinism) non-rejection of grace is itself a gift of God.    Again, either she can't do this, or she won't.
That is correct as far as Thom./Mol. Goes; but as Fr. Most demonstrated they missed the mark. That is also what you argued in the various "grace" threads; Men can reject the grace or not reject the grace, in the second case, God will send them a second grace which will move them to accept the grace; this eliminates the "infinite egress" argument.
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But what are the precise effects of this "greater and more abundant measure of the application"?  That's what I'm asking.  If your answer is that it increases the probability of salvation, then why can't that probability be increased to near 1?
The probability of salvation for each man should begin at 50-50; but as time goes by and graces are not rejected/accepted the chances increase to the point of 1. A infant that is Baptized has a greater chance than one  that is not; It is our Lady that obtained for him this grace; the same for being born in a Catholic family etc. etc. The intervention of Our Lady obtains many of the graces that increase our chances of reaching one; for example the Brown Scapular; Miraculous Medal etc. But not all men will ever be saved, because even a person who has led a good life can throw it away, by rejecting the graces offered. The Catholic parents rejected the graces of the faith; or to have their child Baptized etc. etc.

A slight modification: According to Fr. Most all men start out with a 100% chance of salvation which is what God truly desires for all of mankind; however these chances can be diminished or entirely thrown away by men's mi-use of his free will.
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