Leaving it to the barbarians

[Insanis]

It was settled already.

[dellery]

Why on Earth would one need to debate the morality, or lack thereof, of rape????

Please help me understand the purpose of this thread, man.

[Jayne]

Why on Earth would one need to debate the morality, or lack thereof, of rape????

Please help me understand the purpose of this thread, man.

Nobody is questioning whether rape is good or bad.  We all know that it is very bad.   What comes under debate is questions of definition and comparison. It is pretty abstract, so don't worry if you can't relate to the thread. 

Insanis is raising questions came up a long time ago in another thread. People are likely to take different positions on these statements depending on whether they use a Thomistic framework or a modern one.

Men cannot be raped (by women, but also true in general).

Masturbation is worse than rape

I see this as more of an intellectual exercise than anything with a practical purpose. I expect it to appeal to only a limited number of forum members.

[Vetus Ordo]

So when I wrote and another wrote (note: I am mixing the two together without distinguishing who said what because they are both right):

Men cannot be raped (by women, but also true in general).

Masturbation is worse than rape

And the outcry of modern people against these statements and the discomfort their probably felt (even the moderators), it is an influence of modern social values and perhaps a lack of appreciation of the moral dimension.

Rather, I believe it is an outcry based on the moral compass that we all share as human beings.

No sane adult can take the claim that masturbation is worse than rape seriously. Even if rape sometimes fulfills the purpose of the sexual act, the physical and psychological violence it inflicts on an individual cannot be compared to masturbation. They're not even in the same moral league. Many people who have been raped remain psychologically scarred for life, while some of them even end up committing suicide. It is a violent assault on one's dignity as a woman or a man. Masturbation, at worst, is simply a vice that fails to fulfill the natural purpose of the sexual act. It violates the 6th commandment and you can get over it with a simple confession while rape violates at least the 6th and the 4th commandment at the same time and you cannot just sweep it under the rug since you'll have scarred someone else for life.

As for men not being able to be subject to rape, this claim is so absurd that it doesn't merit a response.

[Jayne]

post deleted

[Insanis]

[Deleted]

[Vetus Ordo]

I wrote up a post and stated I'd provide references for everything, yet instead of engaging as this forum is intended, you go for the personal attacks and emotional reactions.

One should at least have asked for the precise definitions of the words being used in moral theology instead of jumping to this barbaric level of thinking.

What personal attacks?

[Insanis]

[Deleted]

[Jayne]

No sane adult can take the claim that masturbation is worse than rape seriously.

And yet there were wise and holy Catholics who claimed just that.  Rather than dismissing their views as not sane, we should be trying to understand how they came to this conclusion.  What assumptions did they have?  What was the reasoning?  This is our Catholic intellectual heritage, not something to automatically discard when it does not fit modern sensibilities.

[Vetus Ordo]

No sane adult can take the claim that masturbation is worse than rape seriously.

And yet there were wise and holy Catholics who claimed just that.  Rather than dismissing their views as not sane, we should be trying to understand how they came to this conclusion.  What assumptions did they have?  What was the reasoning? This is our Catholic intellectual heritage, not something to automatically discard when it does not fit modern sensibilities.

I'm not discarding the Catholic intellectual heritage. In fact, I framed my response within the proper boundaries of Catholic thought.

I'm well familiar with the Thomistic origin of this line of thought. If that were the direction in which Rosarium wanted to take this discussion, he might have framed it that way.

[Insanis]

Redacted

[Jayne]

No sane adult can take the claim that masturbation is worse than rape seriously.

And yet there were wise and holy Catholics who claimed just that.  Rather than dismissing their views as not sane, we should be trying to understand how they came to this conclusion.  What assumptions did they have?  What was the reasoning? This is our Catholic intellectual heritage, not something to automatically discard when it does not fit modern sensibilities.

I'm not discarding the Catholic intellectual heritage. In fact, I framed my response within the proper boundaries of Catholic thought.

I'm well familiar with the Thomistic origin of this line of thought. If that were the direction in which Rosarium wanted to take this discussion, he might have framed it that way.

I do not think that implying that St. Thomas is not sane is within the proper boundaries of Catholic thought.  It was clear to me that Insanis (he has requested that you not use an old name from another forum) wanted to discuss the Thomistic origins of this idea.  I admit that I recently looked at the old thread that inspired this one, so perhaps that made it easier for me to understand that he was framing the discussion this way.

Your argument for what makes rape worse was based on the suffering it causes.  And there is a place for considering that.  But the Thomistic view is looking at the question ontologically and the consequences are not really an ontological issue.

[Insanis]

[Deleted]

[Jayne]

Insanis, I would find it helpful to see a quote or two from Doctors of the Church on this issue.  And I think it might help to focus the discussion too.  Could you provide some please.

[Insanis]

[Deleted]