Fatima's Portugal Problem

[MaximGun]

I am not damning it, just doubting it.

Fatima made no prophecy that came true.

Errors of the world today cannot credibly be blamed on Russia.  Far more credibly on Hollywood, western countries media, the Jews in powerful positions and the Catholic Church quitting at trying to lead the moral charge.

Lucia grovelled like a star struck teenager to a heretic Pope.  She remained silent when the secret was not released and the church went down into a cesspool of its own making.  104 years have passed and nothing has happened.  I have no confidence it will.

Even James has a time limit.  I do also.

[Insanis]

Lucia's cousins both died as children, and Lucia lives a long time, as foretold at the time.

Unlike things written down and revisited later, what was revealed and approved at Fatima was all true. The rest was entrusted to individuals and interpreted and released afterwards as they choose. It is for them to judge.

What was given to us was all true and readily apparent, and being distracted by the affairs of bishops might be a ploy to get one to ignore the message that was meant for everybody.

[mikemac]

So it is not a prophesy unless it is provisional and comes good with a outcome you like?  As you have stated before the word always is then an misleading addition.  There's simply no way of prooving that it would have always been preserved.

Currently as far as our 5 senses tell us the faith in Portugal is about a kaput as it is possible to be.  They are one of the worst examples in former Catholic Europe.

Are we dealing with God here or Gollum posing riddles? ?

What kind of divine message leaves out a critical piece of information which totally misleads the honest recipient of the message?

Such a message would be deception.  And we could never judge any prophetic statement or commercial contract or marriage vow if we allow for a speculative etc, unless, until.

If you pick and choose what is prophetic after the fact then even the Jehovah"s Witnesses have a 100 percent track record.

So Greg, are you saying that Fatima is nothing more than "Gollum posing riddles"?

You do realize that we have a new forum rule that is suppose to prevent members from postings that "call into doubt, oppose, or question private apparitions", like you just did, don't you?

It is not permissible to call into doubt, oppose, or question private apparitions that are approved of by the proper ecclesiastical authorities.  When an apparition is approved, the Church has performed the relevant inquiry and investigation and has found nothing in it contrary to the faith or to good morals.  As laity, our competency does not extend into that realm.

http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=3891.msg533173#msg533173

[MaximGun]

Proove to me that their short lives were forecast before they died.

You can't because they weren't.  Only after they died was that "forecast" made public.

[Insanis]

Proove to me that their short lives were forecast before they died.

This is a Catholic forum you know and the apparitions and private revelations were approved for the faithful.

It isn't a matter of proving anything to people on the Internet.

[Insanis]

So Greg, are you saying that Fatima is nothing more that "Gollum posing riddles"?

So this is Greg! I see references on the forum, but saw no accounts called Greg.

I learned something.

[Insanis]

There is a thing about prophecy: it is not always what it seems.

Prophecies can be warnings. The future they describe might never happen, because people heeded the warning: remember Jonas in Ninive.

Or prophecies could be intended to be understood by select individuals: who would have guessed that the Messiah would be uninterested in political disputes and temporal power?

Or maybe the time frame being addressed is unknown: the end of the world is always right around the corner...for over 2000 years.

Or what is released could be incomplete.

Did the messages at Fatima, at any point, give a time and date that was definite for anything? Was the point of the apparitions to tell future events to prove itself as authentic? Or was it to warn people about sin, Hell, and encourage devotions effective in combating evil?

If the Vatican releases a document tomorrow, showing that a secret prophecy at Fatima stated that "MaximGun will doubt and disparage Our Lady of Fatima on Trinity Sunday 2021", you'd still doubt it because it isn't "proof". It is obviously fake and after the fact.

So how would you be able to identify an authentic prophecy if you are set to doubt?

[mikemac]

So Greg, are you saying that Fatima is nothing more than "Gollum posing riddles"?

So this is Greg! I see references on the forum, but saw no accounts called Greg.

I learned something.

Yeah there is a Greg in the member list with 13815 posts.  Everyone knows that MaximGun is Greg.  I'm not exactly sure why Greg stopped posting as Greg and started to post as MaximGun.  I'm not sure if KK realizes this seeing there is a forum rule against it.

2) We permit users to have only one account.

http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=3891.msg71766#msg71766

He is probably posting from a different IP address so it can't be proven.  But everyone knows it's Greg. 

[Insanis]

Yeah there is a Greg in the member list with 13815 posts.  Everyone knows that MaximGun is Greg.  I'm not exactly sure why Greg stopped posting as Greg and started to post as MaximGun.  I'm not sure if KK realizes this seeing there is a forum rule against it.

I didn't know. I just learned it now (or rather, then).

If the accounts aren't being used at the same time, I think it is probably fine, at least, for that rule.

(If not, I'm in big trouble.)

Of course, a forum rule existing doesn't mean much on its own from what I see. It is about what actions are taken or not taken.

[james03]

I am not damning it, just doubting it.

I respect that decision as reasonable.  But my position accepting it is also reasonable.  Both sides of Fatima have a problem they have to address.  If you can more easily explain away the predictions and events than the Portugal prophesy, then you have come to a rational decision.  I can't explain it away, and not due to an emotional attachment.  More later.

[james03]

Errors of the world today cannot credibly be blamed on Russia.

Hyperbole.  The errors in the world can be tied to Russia.  We can look at something minor, like the well documented attacks on Pope Pius XII by the KGB, which definitely weakened him.  This is minor.  The whole communist infiltration of the US government by the credible witness Whittaker Chambers in his book Witness.  We have McCarthy, whose claims about infiltration were backed up by the later released Verona transcripts, and that includes Hollywood.  There is the research done by a reporter which she published in her book The Red Thread.  Note she has to be one of the world's worst writers, so reading the book is a chore, but the research she did captured in the end notes is impressive.  And finally the whole Cultural Marxist / Critical Theory / Frankfurt School, as exposed by Yuri.  The history of the Frankfurt school is well documented and the founder was Grygory Lukacs, who was high up in the Hungarian Revolution, supported by the Russian International.  Tying our present day problems back to these events is easy.  The spreading of the errors of Russia is past history.  My view is that today the Russians are the good guys and as Yuri stated: "You are doing it to yourselves now".

edit:  Our current enemy, China, traces directly back to Russia.  So yeah, hyperbole.

[drummerboy]

"Em Portugal se conservará sempre o dogma da fé, etc."

In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved, etc. We don't have access to the rest of the phrase, so it's impossible to tell. It seems clear, though, that there's a heavenly assurance that the faith will remain in the Land of Mary forever, even if it's reduced to a mustard seed. Although the modern Portuguese state is secular and there are many shortcomings in the practice of Catholicism everywhere in the country, there still remains a devout Catholic heart beating in the culture and the longings of its people. By God's grace and the protection of His Mother, it will never disappear.

  I would like to add to this.  Recall in the OT, when God promised Abraham HE would spare Sodom if HE found even 10 good people in it.  If God Himself considered 10 people enough, I find no reason Our Blessed Lady would not when stating the Faith will always be preserved in Portugal.  We do not know the future, perhaps in many nations in time to come the Faith will be completely extinct, and 10 faithful Catholics will be a great number. 

[james03]

So it is not a prophesy unless it is provisional and comes good with a outcome you like?

Completely wrong with regards to my position.  Explaining it would take an Apologia Pro Vita Sua blog post, but I'll give it a whirl here.

I came upon Fatima, basically on my own, from the background of an ardently anti-communist family.  My own sons will be in the helicopters pushing out the commies and I'll be in the back seat passing out the bottled water to keep the lads hydrated.  And what struck me about Fatima was the anti-communist message.  I didn't care about the Miracle of the Sun, nor even with predictions of the Great Apostasy, for at the time I was Novus Ordo and knew nothing about Trads.  I wasn't even particularly "Marian" either, and so I say there was never any sort of emotional attachment you sometimes see with the hyper-Marians who believed in Mej and Garabandal.  No, for me it was a rational decision to believe based on the prediction of Russia.  Later, after becoming Trad, the prediction of the Great Apostosy, as revealed by Cardinal Ciappi and Cardinal Pacelli only reinforced my belief.  The fact that Sr. Lucy was confined by the libtards and all the lies told by the libtards was more supporting evidence.

And then 2017 came, and no chastisement.  Like I said, I'm level headed, so some moslem head hunters doing a few terrorist attacks didn't cut it.  After the passing of the deadline, I concluded Fatima was false.  It stumped me, but I couldn't deny the evidence.  This belief lasted weeks, or possibly months until I read about Tuy and Ranjo, events I was not familiar with.  The money quote is in the quotation above from Ranjo: "Our Lord complained to me: 'They did not wish to heed My request!".  It is conclusive, the Lord made the consecration request, and that occurred in 1929, in Tuy.  So the deadline is 2029, there's no arguing against that if you assume the 100 years.

And thus I arrived at my position.  I can more easily explain "Portugal" than the predictions.  I'll find out in 2029, and a war between Nicaragua and Honduras won't cut it.

[Insanis]

I would like to add to this.  Recall in the OT, when God promised Abraham HE would spare Sodom if HE found even 10 good people in it.  If God Himself considered 10 people enough, I find no reason Our Blessed Lady would not when stating the Faith will always be preserved in Portugal.  We do not know the future, perhaps in many nations in time to come the Faith will be completely extinct, and 10 faithful Catholics will be a great number. 

That doesn't work:

If God would spare Sodom for the sake of a few just men, why not just accept that at least one faithful person will always be in Portugal?

[MaximGun]

Everything in the history of the 20th Century can be blamed on Russia, it would appear then.   China, porn on the Internet, Vatican II, breakdown of the family, 2016 election, 2020 election everything.

Stupid.