Religious Liberty

Started by EliRotello, November 08, 2018, 03:29:24 PM

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Kreuzritter

Quote from: EliRotello on November 24, 2018, 09:46:47 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on November 09, 2018, 09:15:26 AM
If "religious liberty", as in a liberty to believe and practice whatever one chooses, were a "right", the First Commandment would be a violation of it, as would it's enforcement by the state under the Modaic law. That is logic.

Yes, the words are "in" Vatican 2. Now go read the relatio for the text.

But wouldn't there be liberty to practice the first commandment, either way, with the philosophical necessity of Religious Liberty, either way?

Uggggghhh ... stop confusing ontological freedom to act with moral liberty to act. There is no liberty to contravene the Fist Commandment; do it, and all things equal, you separate yourself from the divine source of all existence and go to Hell.

EliRotello

What about this philosophical question Kreuzritter?  Do you have freedom in the way of the law?  In other words, if Moses commands you to follow the 10 commandments, do you have the, freedom, to do it?  What do you think?
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Michael Wilson

Eli,
there are three types of liberty: 1. Physical; the ability to move towards a desired object; this type of liberty is shared by both men and animals. 2. Psychological liberty: the ability to chose one course of action over another; men move themselves freely towards one object or another, not out of necessity like animals that are guided by instincts. 3. Moral liberty: the ability to choose one course of action or another to reach our final end, which is Heaven. Men are not 'morally' free to deviate from their final end, but may do so and will therefore lose Sanctifying Grace and friendship with God; and ultimately lose salvation.
Therefore to answer your question: Men are psychologically free to follow or not to follow the 10 Commandments; as is evident by observing the behavior of our fellows and noting our own; but men are not morally free to do so; the disobedience to the 10 Commandments carries a price, which is mentioned above.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

EliRotello

No one is really answering my questions.  Everyone is kind of mentioning things around it.  These responses are not to the point.  I want to know:

Are you posts to me, Religious Liberty, in any which way, whatsoever?  Yes, or no?  Remember, I said, any which way, whatsoever.  That's important.
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EliRotello

Quote from: Kreuzritter on November 26, 2018, 07:02:22 AM
Quote from: EliRotello on November 24, 2018, 09:46:47 AM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on November 09, 2018, 09:15:26 AM
If "religious liberty", as in a liberty to believe and practice whatever one chooses, were a "right", the First Commandment would be a violation of it, as would it's enforcement by the state under the Modaic law. That is logic.

Yes, the words are "in" Vatican 2. Now go read the relatio for the text.

But wouldn't there be liberty to practice the first commandment, either way, with the philosophical necessity of Religious Liberty, either way?

Uggggghhh ... stop confusing ontological freedom to act with moral liberty to act. There is no liberty to contravene the Fist Commandment; do it, and all things equal, you separate yourself from the divine source of all existence and go to Hell.

"There is no liberty to contravene the Fist Commandment"

So no one is free to contravene the First Commandment? That's not true.
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Vetus Ordo

Quote from: EliRotello on December 05, 2018, 06:12:29 PM
So no one is free to contravene the First Commandment? That's not true.

Everyone is capable of contravening the First Commandment.

No-one has the actual right to do so, though.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

Michael Wilson

#36
QuoteNo one is really answering my questions.  Everyone is kind of mentioning things around it.  These responses are not to the point.  I want to know:

Are you posts to me, Religious Liberty, in any which way, whatsoever?  Yes, or no?  Remember, I said, any which way, whatsoever.  That's important.
No, to be "religious liberty" it would take an outward manifestation of a religious nature. The discussion on this forum is probably closer to "freedom of speech".

re. The first commandment: People are 'free' to contravene the first commandment, if you refer to "free will" or "psychological freedom"; We can worship false gods all day long, and no-one will disturb us. But we are not "morally free" e.i. We incur a grave sin in the sight of God and He will punish us for this, if we die without repenting of it.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

EliRotello

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on December 05, 2018, 06:41:42 PM
Quote from: EliRotello on December 05, 2018, 06:12:29 PM
So no one is free to contravene the First Commandment? That's not true.

Everyone is capable of contravening the First Commandment.

No-one has the actual right to do so, though.

Yes they do have the right to do that.  Just like, if I were wrong, and this were not Religious Liberty, I have the moral right, the actual right, to post it, and if it weren't a right of mine, at least in some way, any way, then it would never have happened.  Would it have?  What will be your Religious Liberty reply?
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EliRotello

You have a right, to go to hell, if you so choose.  Truth.
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EliRotello

God gives everyone a right to contravene the first commandment especially.  You could not have a right to eternal hell, if you were not given a right to it.  There could not be salvation, merit, sin judgment, death, anything, without the right to do it.  We are that intelligent now as society, and we can think with the council fathers.  I was even told by my Priests when I was in High School at a Catholic High School, that there were presentations by Priests from Rome who came to our Diocese to do this very same discussion with them, in perfect philosophy.  This is not unconsidered.  In fact its was on Catholic forums in 1997, when I was in middle school.  I saw the whole thing.
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EliRotello

Without a moral right to hell, you can't go to hell.  If you can't choose it, you can't have it, and that's not Catholic.
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Michael Wilson

QuoteYes they do have the right to do that.  Just like, if I were wrong, and this were not Religious Liberty, I have the moral right, the actual right, to post it, and if it weren't a right of mine, at least in some way, any way, then it would never have happened.  Would it have?  What will be your Religious Liberty reply?

No, that would be 'freedom of speech'; not "Religious Liberty"; but again, just because you are physically able to do something, does not give you the 'moral right' to do it.
For example, you are able to post lies and calumnies about somebody on this forum, but that doesn't mean that you have the right to, or that they are not sins.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael Wilson

Quote from: EliRotello on December 05, 2018, 07:21:46 PM
Without a moral right to hell, you can't go to hell.  If you can't choose it, you can't have it, and that's not Catholic.
There is not "moral right" to go to Hell. The notion of right is bound up with the concept of 'good' and 'true'; one can choose to go to Hell by committing serious sins, but that doesn't mean one has the 'right' to do so.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael Wilson

Quote from: EliRotello on December 05, 2018, 07:19:41 PM
God gives everyone a right to contravene the first commandment especially.  You could not have a right to eternal hell, if you were not given a right to it.  There could not be salvation, merit, sin judgment, death, anything, without the right to do it.  We are that intelligent now as society, and we can think with the council fathers.  I was even told by my Priests when I was in High School at a Catholic High School, that there were presentations by Priests from Rome who came to our Diocese to do this very same discussion with them, in perfect philosophy.  This is not unconsidered.  In fact its was on Catholic forums in 1997, when I was in middle school.  I saw the whole thing.
God gives men the freedom to follow or to disobey the first commandment, but God doesn't give anybody the right to do so. Salvation and merit come from making true and morally good choices and damnation from making false and sinful ones.
You have the ability to take a gun out and shoot somebody, but you don't have the right to do so; the same for shoplifting or cheating on your spouse etc. etc. 
Read Pope Leo the XIII's Encyclical "Libertas" here: http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_20061888_libertas.html
He explains everything very clearly.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Vetus Ordo

Quote from: EliRotello on December 05, 2018, 07:16:06 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on December 05, 2018, 06:41:42 PM
Quote from: EliRotello on December 05, 2018, 06:12:29 PM
So no one is free to contravene the First Commandment? That's not true.

Everyone is capable of contravening the First Commandment.

No-one has the actual right to do so, though.

Yes they do have the right to do that.  Just like, if I were wrong, and this were not Religious Liberty, I have the moral right, the actual right, to post it, and if it weren't a right of mine, at least in some way, any way, then it would never have happened.  Would it have?  What will be your Religious Liberty reply?

I'm afraid I don't understand your question.

I am the Lord thy God; thou shalt not have strange gods before Me. All human beings without exception are morally obliged to offer to God alone the supreme worship that is due Him. There is no actual right to contravene it, although one may contravene it through his own sin. Human beings are able to do evil but being able to do evil is not a right in itself to do evil.

It is true that governments may grant toleration of false religions, or the civic right not to be harassed concerning one's beliefs. This falls on the realm of prudential judgment. However, an objective assessment of the issue tells us that there can be no such right, as it were, to disobey God.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.