God is a monster.

[TheReturnofLive]

I need to confess something out in the open, something that has been bubbling within me for a while, and I need to just open up and be perfectly honest - I wonder how in the hell can God be Love, and how God can be anything else but a monster.

So okay, God has allowed all these various religions to exist for hundreds of years since the advent of Christianity. He has allowed these religions which all create deep-rooted psychological attachments and nostalgia, which grandparents always past down to there kids. He doesn't stop these religions, He doesn't destroy these religions, He allows them to grow and grow. Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Assyrian Church of the East. In fact, He makes it an absolute pain in the ass to convert from one of these religions to another due to these deep-rooted psychological attachments, which every single human being will be biased towards,

And yet, He has just hidden the magic ball underneath an inconspicuous cup. Pick the wrong one, feel free to burn for all eternity forever without a second chance. Pick the right one, and you get to party with God forever.

Your choice. You can't possibly know which one is the right one, you just have to go with your gut and hopefully you don't burn for all eternity forever.


On top of that, He has permitted a Creation narrative to be taught that makes no f***ing sense whatsoever. Were there dinosaurs in the Garden of Eden? Did the T-Rex eat fruit? How the hell was the world flooded for 40 days, with all of humanity repopulating from 3 people at an incredibly fast rate, with at least two of every single animal fitting on the Ark and somehow being fed without people dying of dysentery from all the crap? Why is the Old Testament rooted in a Geocentric, Flat-Earth cosmology? What do we make of the objective, quantifiable data that clearly show ape-like creatures slowly turning into human-like creatures over time? Yet somehow, the rationale human being is supposed to reconcile these contradictions.


And even then, He intentionally cripples each of these religions without getting rid of them, which all tell you that outside of their religion there is no salvation, in different ways. In Roman Catholicism, He has effectively destroyed the beauty that it once espoused, destroyed the spirituality, rendered any objective morality or dogma completely meaningless and subjective.

There was an event which occurred at Vatican II - Cardinal Ottiovani, an old man, who was blind, went on stage with a mic, and was warning the other Cardinals about compromising tradition. The Council Fathers turned off his mic and began laughing at him when they couldn't hear him. He began to cry.

This whole juvenile immaturity of condescending towards tradition IS Roman Catholicism now. Despite existing for 1960 years without a hitch in terms of moral and liturgical tradition, NOW He laughs and mocks all of it and allows all those who live within it to lose Faith. It's juvenility and relativism now, run by illogical and lawless people.

And it's captain is one of the most narcisstic pieces of filth I've ever seen. Holy crap, wearing a cassock renders you a "woman priest." And keep letting all those priests rape those kids, because why not.


Orthodoxy? He has divided it up. All it is now is a propaganda outlet for Nationalism, and nothing more. Being Holy for the Orthodox is being Nationalistic. Nothing better than those racist Jews, who felt they were racially superior because they were God's chosen people. And it's all about being an ethnic clique, nothing more. Very few, like the very few in Roman Catholicism who actually view Tradition as important, actually see Orthodoxy as something more. In fact, I will say that many people in my first Orthodox parish hated me because I actually liked Orthodoxy's old antiquated morality and doctrines, and wanted something more than just being Russian or Greek.


And we can't just throw up our hands and say a particular institution doesn't matter, and all that matters is Christ. What do we know what Christ taught? What do we know what He would approve? The Bible itself is littered with contradictions. God at one point commands people to be stoned, the next He condemns stoning. God commands the Israelites to slaughter the Canaanites, then He tells us those who live by the sword die by the sword. One instance money is a blessing, the next it's the source of all evil. One instance there is no High Priest but Christ, the next those who partake of the Sacrifice unworthily are damned. One moment people are baptizing in the name of Jesus, the next they are baptized in the name of the Trinity. Good luck figuring out morality from the Bible alone! Or Who Christ was! Or what Salvation means!

Who knows? Maybe I'm a sinner for opposing abortion, maybe I'm a sinner for supporting it. Maybe I'm a sinner for forbidding my children from masturbation, maybe I'm a sinner for allowing it. Maybe I'm a sinner for supporting a war for democracy, maybe I'm a sinner for being against it. Maybe I'm a sinner for opposing homosexuality and transgenderism, maybe I'm a sinner for supporting it.

And that's assuming the Bible's even right. Maybe the Bible is a false document that we can't trust at all.


So out all of these facts, that God has allowed religions post Christianity to exist and allowed them to create deep psychological biases that cloud are subjective judgment, that it's logically impossible to know which one is objectively the True One, that God has forced a Creation narrative that is irreconcilable with common sense, and that God has crippled all of these religions in various ways, and that outside of these religions, it's logically impossible to know what true morality and belief is, and that if we are wrong on these things, we burn for all eternity forever, can we all agree that God is a psychopathic monster?

So what, despite being Omniscient and therefore knowing what all physical phenomena feels like as it pertains to everything, He actually suffered for a small period of time. Why should this monster be worthy of our worship?

Maybe Satan saw something in God that we don't, and that information is hidden from us from God.

I think I'm done with God. I have to find some other purpose in my life outside of it.

[TheReturnofLive]

-

[Xavier]

God is not a monster - that's a monstrous and deeply offensive claim. He is Our Loving Father. He became Man for love of us, as we're going to celebrate soon on ChristMas, He died for love of us on Calvary, He gave us, in His Sacrament of Infinite Love, the Holy Eucharist, the eternal pledge to be with us forever. He offers Himself in Redeeming Sacrifice for our sins at every Mass. How many reasons to thank Him for all that He has done!

God is the Supreme Creator, the Lord of all Life, in Whom we live and move and have being, without Whom no being or goodness would even exist. The evil, the hate, bitterness, the ugliness in the world is from us, from our passions, from our evil choices, from our not wanting to be holy. The good, the beauty, the loveliness, the truth and the Love is from Him, from Almighty God Who is Infinite Goodness.

The Infinite Love of the Sacred Heart manifested miraculously in Eucharistic Miracles should be enough imo for the whole world to forsake all its misguided errors and happily embrace the Treasures of the Catholic Faith https://indefenseofthecross.com/eucharistic-miracles/ I feel greatly sad for those who have not known the Love of Jesus Christ, especially in His Holy Eucharist, His True Body and His Precious Blood.

There's no need to complicate it. Christianity is very simple. Keep the commandments, receive the Sacraments, perform the works of mercy, strive to live a virtuous life, growing in love of God and neighbor, and fulfilling the duties of state. That is the way to reach lasting happiness and find one's purpose in life. God's Love and Mercy is new every day; if we've sinned, Grace is Just One Good Confession to a Roman Catholic Priest Away.

Anyway, I understand you're going through a Faith Crisis. We'll pray for you. In the meanwhile, Hope you like this rendition of "Adeste Fideles" (O Come All Ye Faithful)

"Adeste fideles læti triumphantes,
Venite, venite in Bethlehem.
Natum videte
Regem angelorum:
Venite adoremus (3×)
Dominum.

Deum de Deo, lumen de lumine
Gestant puellæ viscera
Deum verum, genitum non factum.
Venite adoremus (3×)
Dominum.

Cantet nunc io, chorus angelorum;
Cantet nunc aula cælestium,
Gloria, gloria in excelsis Deo,
Venite adoremus (3×)
Dominum."

[MaximGun]

When the hairy comet of chastisement arrives and you find yourself without beeswax candles, Greg and James are going to be laughing at you from behind their sandwich boards and blackened out windows as they sip sip single malt whiskey and XO Cognac between chanting their decades and you will feel like an utter dickhead.

Why risk that humiliation for shagging a few whores, getting divorce raped by one of them and lying in on Sunday morning?

The world offers you nothing.  Even if Catholicism is a cult, it is a fun cult with advantages.  Better to be the happiest nut in the asylum that the sanest man in hell.  And the modern world is hellish.

The world cannot offer you anything better.  Sex, drugs, rock n roll?  Boring.  Very boring.

Beside, you're not paying attention.  The tide is changing.  I feel it in the air. I taste it in the water.  The liberal satanists know their time is short.  Don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.  When it all goes to sh#t you will be glad to have a solid anchor.

There is no other purpose.  If there were, smarter and wiser men than you would have found it already.

[Daniel]

Dude, calm down. You bring up some good points but also some bad points. But the fact is, God is worthy of worship even if He is a monster. That 'God is the permitter of all evil' is nothing new. That 'truth is unknowable' is also nothing new. That 'the game is rigged' is nothing new. But the point isn't to know God's will, which is impossible. The point is only to love what you love and to hate what you hate, and to accept your fate. God moves you to where He wills.

[Michael Wilson]

God loves us and doesn't send anyone to Hell except for Mortal sin; but Mortal sin requires three conditions: 1. Grievous matter 2. Sufficient knowledge 3. Full consent of the Will. Those who err in good faith, will not be condemned for their innocent mistakes; God provides all men with the graces that they need to save their souls. 
Also, God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son to suffer and die for our salvation:[John 3:16]

For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting."

If we believe that Jesus Christ is truly God and died on the Cross for our salvation; then we know that he didn't die in vain; that He truly wills the salvation of all men.[1 Timothy 2:4]

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

If people are raised in the middle of Sunni Islam, in the middle of Saudi Arabia; God can still reach them with His grace and somehow make salvation available to them. God gets no pleasure out of sending people to Hell, but "there is more joy in Heaven over the conversion of one sinner:

I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance."

There is the parable of the "prodigal son"; the father doesn't cease watching and waiting for the wayward son to return, and when he sees him, he rushes out to meet him, embrace him and celebrate his return. So our God calls us unceasingly to turn away from sin and return to Him, he is as one who stands at the gate and knocks:

[Apocalypse 3:20]
"Behold, I stand at the gate, and knock. If any man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

God does not desire the death of a sinner, but that he should be converted and live:

[Ezechiel  18:23]"Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live?"
[Ezechiel  33:11]
"Say to them: As I live, saith the Lord God, I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way, and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways: and why will you die, O house of Israel?"

[Miriam_M]

God is not a monster - that's a monstrous and deeply offensive claim.

It's actually blasphemous.

[clau clau]

Does that make the Catholic Church Monsters Inc.   
(/humor)

[Vetus Ordo]

So out all of these facts, that God has allowed religions post Christianity to exist and allowed them to create deep psychological biases that cloud are subjective judgment, that it's logically impossible to know which one is objectively the True One, that God has forced a Creation narrative that is irreconcilable with common sense, and that God has crippled all of these religions in various ways, and that outside of these religions, it's logically impossible to know what true morality and belief is, and that if we are wrong on these things, we burn for all eternity forever, can we all agree that God is a psychopathic monster?

It is certain that God has decreed from all eternity that creation would be fallen and that evil would exist and thrive. Evil was willed by God, otherwise it wouldn't exist. Period. We have to come to terms with this reality in order to reach some minimum level of spiritual maturity, otherwise we'll always be whining about like little children.

It is theoretically conceivable that God could've created a world without evil and a world in which Adam would never have fallen. Nevertheless, that world doesn't exist. Only this one exists and this is the world we have to deal with. Why did God will from all eternity that the whole lot of the human race would become a massa damnata through the sin of Adam with all that it entails, including false creeds, philosophies, crimes, wars, etc.? It is enough to realize that the presence of evil is teleologically justified. Whatever God wills is by definition good. There's no way around it. God uses evil to produce spiritual goods in the fabric of time and for the benefit of His elect, even if we can't realize immediately what good comes out of a particular situation. God works in all things, including evil, for the good of His sheep, who are called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30)

Maybe Satan saw something in God that we don't, and that information is hidden from us from God.

Taking cues from Satan belies a blind idiocy that is self-explanatory. Snap out of it.

I think I'm done with God. I have to find some other purpose in my life outside of it.

I'm afraid this the most terrible idea that you've come up with so far, Live.

There is no purpose in life apart from God. This is a simple fact of logic. Unless you want to romanticize the existence of lumps of cells that live to breed, lost in a galaxy out there, among billions of other galaxies that exist for no purpose whatsoever. Nihilism is the only alternative to God. And it is a dead end.

[Kreuzritter]

I suppose this is where listening to too much Dyerwave might get you.

At least you've let it all out like Job. Hopefully you manage to pick up the pieces.

I think I'm done with God. I have to find some other purpose in my life outside of it.

Sounds more like you need to be done with science, theology and religious politics and make nothing but God your purpose. Like hike up to a cabin in the woods or head over to Mount Athos style and don't come back until you've found him.

[Tales]

Over the past couple years, multiple times in replies and PMs, I warned that if you require the faith to dot every i and cross every t, and analyze it to death, you will lose your faith.  I warned that as you continue on your quest to prove Orthodoxy correct via historical analysis you will lose your faith.  Here we are now.

But I also suspect you have me on ignore anyways.

The world offers you nothing.  Even if Catholicism is a cult, it is a fun cult with advantages.  Better to be the happiest nut in the asylum that the sanest man in hell.  And the modern world is hellish.

This is similar to the position I take.  Even if not objectively real, it has proven itself the superior way to live a life, extremely so in contrast to anything the West has brought forth post 1500.  I am far better as a Catholic than as an atheist.  So too is my wife.

Live, here is my new warning:  analyze anything in as much detail as you do and you will lose that as well.

How do I know my wife loves me?  How can I prove it?  What is love?  --> gonna lose wife
How do I know I am really me?  What is me?  What are these thoughts?  --> nihilism, barbarism
How do I know what is right and wrong?  What does wrong even mean?  --> immorality, criminality, cruelty

In analyzing reality there is nothing you can fully understand.  At some point in analysis of anything such as love, truth, beauty, justice or consciousness, there is a point at which the thing underlying it cannot be comprehended.  It is like peeling the layers of an onion away but eventually getting to a layer past which we cannot understand.  It appears to be a void underneath it.  But really past that layer is the supernatural and eventually God.

I note this is even true for the material world as well.  Physicists are at this gap with quantum mechanics. And where has it led them?  The rejection of causation, which is a necessary condition underlying all of scientific experimentation.  Rather than accept that there is a supernatural cause leading to these confusing quantum results, they instead say that the effect causes the cause.

One must accept that there is nothing the human mind understand in totality.  If you request that level of knowledge on any one thing, you will lose your grasp and faith in that thing.  Examine justice and you'll lose your belief in the existence of justice.  Examine beauty and you'll end up praising faeces in a can in a modern art museum.  Examine love and you'll end up all alone hating life.

Right now your intelligence surpasses your wisdom.  With time we can hope that your wisdom surpasses your intelligence and you will find your way back.

[Michael Wilson]

Vetus Ordo,
re. St. Augustine's "Massa Damanta" theory; Fr. Most here explains why this theory is unacceptabl to Catholics, and is clearly mistaken. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getchap.cfm?WorkNum=7&ChapNum=3
Its really worth a read.

[Daniel]

Those who err in good faith, will not be condemned for their innocent mistakes; God provides all men with the graces that they need to save their souls.

But this isn't Catholic teaching. The Church teaches only that there is no salvation outside the Church, i.e. no salvation without grace. Everything else is theological speculation.

The world offers you nothing.  Even if Catholicism is a cult, it is a fun cult with advantages.  Better to be the happiest nut in the asylum that the sanest man in hell.  And the modern world is hellish.

This is similar to the position I take.  Even if not objectively real, it has proven itself the superior way to live a life, extremely so in contrast to anything the West has brought forth post 1500.  I am far better as a Catholic than as an atheist.  So too is my wife.

But what I've been saying is that this all seems quite wrong. If God is what's most important to you, then how can you possibly 'justify' your blind submission to an organization which, for all you know, is outright offensive to God? I would think that the true lover of God is an honest skeptic who always remains open to truth, even to his own displeasure and disadvantage.

Though the more I think about it, the more it seems that no 'justification' is necessary on our part.

[Tales]

Though the more I think about it, the more it seems that no 'justification' is necessary on our part.

Because the more you think about it the more you think you are a robot (which makes no sense, but I digress).  This is precisely the same thing I wrote about to Live two hours ago and I've said to you as well in the past. 

I would think that the true lover of God is an honest skeptic who always remains open to truth, even to his own displeasure and disadvantage.

How could you possibly know?  Maybe your hypothetical god is repulsed to the core by skepticism.  Maybe he hates with a burning passion that you do not pick a faith and stick to it.  How would you know with your extreme skepticism?

You and Live are two peas in a pod.  Two young men with more intelligence than wisdom.  Give it 5-10 more years, get out of college, get married & have kids, and you will come around (as your wisdom begins to surpass your intelligence).  Until that time, try not to get yourself addicted to any new vices.  None of this is an insult, it is merely how almost all modern men (myself included) are / were.

[Tales]

Evil was willed by God, otherwise it wouldn't exist. Period.

A necessary condition of Calvinism.