Contempt for leaders

[VivaCristoRey]

I've just read that contempt for leaders is sinful. What kind of sin would it be if a person makes fun of their president on social media and whatnot and feeling like I don't have to obey a president who is illegitimate. I'm guilty of this pretty frequently in the last few months

A government is only a government if it is legitimate.  It is kind of like a law that requires you to commit evil.  It isn't a real law and cannot be obeyed.  I have no doubt that Pretender Biden is an illegitimate leader.  I have no respect for fake leaders who are installed with an army surrounding them and an MSM acting like a ministry of propaganda.

This is exactly the same attitude that the Left had towards Trump. In his case, he was illegitimate because of Russian collusion.

Catholics should know better, whether or not they like, or agree with, any given head of state.

I'm not really concerned. No Russian collusion was found, despite millions of taxpayer dollars spent on the investigation. You can consider Biden legitimate but I don't. I'm not going to pretend like I do by calling him "President Biden."

If the legitimacy of a given head of state, duly sworn in and recognized as such by the branches of government, were dependent upon the personal opinion of each citizen, then the command to honor leaders and superiors could never really be enforced and the system itself would collapse.

The same reasoning applies to the question of the pope. It would all be reduced to a no true Scotsman situation. "Why don't you obey so and so?" Because, according to my interpretation, so and so is not the "true President" or the "true Pope". And so forth.

Biden has more than sufficient military and police force to maintain power, despite the opinions of a number of citizens who don't think he's illegitimate. Of course, if the vast bulk of a citizenry stopped recognizing the legitimacy of their government, it probably would fall. That's happened on more than a few occasions. Some level of popular support is necessary for a government. The fact is, corrupt governments exist and fraudulent elections happen. You are free to disagree with my assessment of Biden and the last election. It really doesn't bother me. Nothing will change the fact we're stuck with this guy for 4-8 years. But accepting or rejecting the legitimacy of the last election is not a matter of Catholic faith and morals, and I am free to draw a different conclusion in accordance with my conscience.

The question is not whether you agree with the legitimacy of the elections or not. Personally, I think all elections of such magnitude are rigged one way or the other. History teaches us that. Even Charles V, an otherwise godly ruler, rigged his way into the imperial throne through unashamed bribery. Papal elections are also full of stories like that.

The point is that once a given head of state is legally recognized as such, you owe him a modicum of respect. It's part of one's character to show respect to people in authority and not behave as resentful brats. Otherwise, how would the command to honor leaders and superiors be enforced to begin with? One can always invoke reasons as to why A or B is not the "true" superior, leader, president, king, etc. Biden, for all intents and purposes, is the president of the United States. No-one else is. The same way Trump was before him, the Left's pouts notwithstanding. As such, you owe him the respect due to his office, regardless of how you think he got there. That's all it means.

I respect the office of the American presidency. I will obey, for pragmatic reasons, any morally permissible law Mr. Biden signs. I refer to him as "Pretender Biden" as a reference to holding a title of pretence. I don't consider that disrespectful. It is sometimes used among royal claimants. I do not pretend like my opinion of his legitimacy amounts to anything other than my personal opinion. I'm not going to stage an insurrection or heap disrespect upon him. But I will not call him something that I do not believe he is, and that's a legitimate president. I owe him no more than that. If you consider that bratty, okay.

[Gardener]

Well surprisingly yesterday I read (in either Davis or Connells moral theology) that you have to obey even an illegitimate leader. I was shocked to read that

That's absurd. If they are illegitimate, then they are not lawful. In essence, your source is positing that one has to themselves deny reality and assent to unlawfulness. Patently absurd.

One might engage in non-sinful things if prudence dictates, but a person is never morally bound to obey someone who is not lawfully in authority and power, since they do not have said authority or power in any conceivable fashion.

For example, if the Mafia "ran" a town, one might assess the risk of "disobeying" and opt to abide by any random edict provided it is not objectively sinful. But they are not morally bound to do so. If said edict is objectively grave matter, then one is morally bound to "disobey". Moreover, one never NEVER bound to obey unjust laws.

If one wishes to posit this broad obedience to even illegitimate authority, then one might as well throw out all the martyrs of Ireland, England, Mexico, etc. since in reality, they were just disobedient idiots.

[Vetus Ordo]

Vetus,
Do you condemn Franco?

What for?

[james03]

Disobeying and showing contempt for the duly elected government of Spain.  Obviously.

[Miriam_M]

I thought the original question had to do with "contempt," which I consider different from (a) condemnation of an individual's policies and (b) outrage with regard to corrupt elections, outrage at unlawful attempts by governmental bodies such as Congress to override due process, etc.

I consider "contempt" to be equivalent to hatred.  Thus, if I behave contemptuously to a person of any rank or no rank, it's a sin.  And ditto if I nourish hatred of that person within my heart.

I don't have such feelings about Biden, Harris, or other individuals.  I have, however, disgust -- if not contempt (strong word) -- for the entire quasi-fascistic style takeover of governmental processes and media by The  Left as an organized movement with human members.

Thus, the hatred that was owned and nourished by the Left during/after the Clinton-Trump election and then swelled to a demonic level during the 4 years after that became the driving theme of the Democratic campaign:  hatred for a man, hatred for the person of DJT.  There's nothing "Democratic," "American," or admirable about that.  I did not see DJT wage a similar campaign, defined by the Politics of Hatred, but it was waged daily in the media and in schools, by the Democrats, against him.

[TandJ]

Miriam you explained it like I should have. I don't HATE them and I genuinely wish for their salvation, but this whole experience the past few months has disgusted me and I'm very angry about people calling him a good Catholic and scandalizing people with his behavior. I'm angry he is getting communion without repenting, I'm angry he is ruining our country.

[Miriam_M]

Miriam you explained it like I should have. I don't HATE them and I genuinely wish for their salvation, but this whole experience the past few months has disgusted me and I'm very angry about people calling him a good Catholic and scandalizing people with his behavior. I'm angry he is getting communion without repenting, I'm angry he is ruining our country.

The anger is morally legitimate and understandable.  I feel it, too; it's just that I try not to get too exercised (I'm avoiding the news) about it because it begins to affect my life and relationships seriously when I do.  It's a natural activity to read the news; it's a natural impulse to react to injustices such as these, so I don't accuse you of doing something you should not. 

Those of us who live in a sea of "Blue" face this every day, but I find that I have to try to influence others more subtly.  For example, the other night I was treated to a dinner by a family whose student I have helped in a major way. Believe me, these are liberals.  Most Indians who come to this country and are successful are indeed liberals.  I have never tried to influence them away from what I correctly perceive are their political positions.  However, Mom brought up on Saturday night her concerns about the suppression of free speech on college campuses (where her son is and will be elsewhere in grad school in fall). After quietly listening to her voiced displeasure with what she herself called "Cancel Culture,", I said to her rather directly: "Since you and your husband are concerned about this, it's your responsibility to speak up against Cancel Culture where you live and work, because unfortunately it is the predominant movement here at present."

I think I made an impression upon her.  More people need to feel liberated about this; she told me she has encountered similar resistance to popular expectations in several situations that she has encountered.  Again I told her that this was an indication that clearly her voice is the moderate one, not a radical one, and thus she should encourage this genuine resistance.

[james03]

I don't HATE them and I genuinely wish for their salvation,

I always find this incomplete.  I genuinely wish that Biden REPENTS for his grievous sins and is saved.  I imagine that is implied in your statement, but it needs to be called out in this day and age.  Biden needs to publicly repent considering the public nature of his scandalous behavior. 

Also, on contempt, I absolutely have contempt for pedophiles who anally rape little toddlers.

[mikemac]

US Catholic bishops may press Biden to stop taking Communion
When U.S. Catholic bishops hold their next national meeting in June, they'll be deciding whether to send a tougher-than-ever message to President Joe Biden and other Catholic politicians
28 April 2021
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/us-catholic-bishops-press-biden-stop-taking-communion-77366692


Pelosi's Archbishop Says Pro-Abortion Catholics Should Be Denied Communion
May 3, 2021
https://sports.yahoo.com/pelosi-archbishop-says-pro-abortion-170336742.html

[VivaCristoRey]

US Catholic bishops may press Biden to stop taking Communion
When U.S. Catholic bishops hold their next national meeting in June, they'll be deciding whether to send a tougher-than-ever message to President Joe Biden and other Catholic politicians
28 April 2021
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/us-catholic-bishops-press-biden-stop-taking-communion-77366692


Pelosi's Archbishop Says Pro-Abortion Catholics Should Be Denied Communion
May 3, 2021
https://sports.yahoo.com/pelosi-archbishop-says-pro-abortion-170336742.html

I hope they actually follow through with this, and that the Vatican doesn't stop them.  I'm not holding my breath on that but they might surprise me.

[mikemac]

US Catholic bishops may press Biden to stop taking Communion
When U.S. Catholic bishops hold their next national meeting in June, they'll be deciding whether to send a tougher-than-ever message to President Joe Biden and other Catholic politicians
28 April 2021
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/us-catholic-bishops-press-biden-stop-taking-communion-77366692


Pelosi's Archbishop Says Pro-Abortion Catholics Should Be Denied Communion
May 3, 2021
https://sports.yahoo.com/pelosi-archbishop-says-pro-abortion-170336742.html

I hope they actually follow through with this, and that the Vatican doesn't stop them.  I'm not holding my breath on that but they might surprise me.

Agreed.  It would be about time, if they do it.

[red solo cup]

"The person who does not become irate when he has cause to be , sins. For an unreasonable patience is the hotbed of many vices. It fosters negligence and stimulates not only the wicked, but above all, the good to do wrong". -St John Chrysostom

[Melkor]

But defining the right cause can be a bit tricky lol.

[Tennessean]

But defining the right cause can be a bit tricky lol.

I think the 5 Eyes/Anglosphere are headed for a Crisis of the Third Century (if we aren't there now), where every camp has their own deep fake president. Just a secret police state that are into occult and psyops running the show (like General Vallely and his satanist buddy General Aquino scratch the surface of in Mind War). Get what you want from your enemy by making them believe you're on the same side. Kill them slow, before the war. Give em porn and turn their men into women. The right cause would be none of the above. I don't think the US will repent, we'll probably get smoked in a war the established were certain they could win, and then back home people will just do whatever they want. I think a lot of people are demon possessed already, and they're just waiting for the orgy of violence to kick off. Whatever happens, I think getting out of here is the best option. I feel more optimistic about France or even east Africa repenting before we (in the US) do tbh.



I don't remember who WrathOfGnon is, and I don't know the context of the quote, but I always liked it. Christians are exiles.

[Prayerful]

Frankly legitimacy is a great deal of nothing unless it something like an appeal to a portion of the population able to do stuff. Someone is in power or they are not. We should are exhorted to pray for our enemies and that without charity, we could have nearly the powers of the Lord, but be nothing. That is so hard, but it must be attempted.