Author Topic: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix  (Read 4641 times)

Offline mikemac

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #150 on: May 02, 2021, 05:09:29 PM »
Hi TrentCath. We believe Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix with Christ and Mediatrix of All Graces because the Magisterium of the Church, going back over a 100 years, has taught us so. Wiki has this useful information: "The term Co-Redemptress was used by Pope Leo XIII in 1894.[3] "For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us..."

Co-Redemptrix was used three times by Roman Congregrations under Pope St. Pius X: "The first usages of the Co-redemptrix title in the official pronouncements of the Roman Congregations also take place under the Magisterium of St. Pius X. Co-redemptrix is used three times by the Holy See in the initiatives of three Congregations of the Curia, and is thus contained in the publication of their official acts, Acta Sanctae Sedis (later to become Acta Apostolicae Sedis)."[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-Redemptrix

As for "faith seeking understanding", which is what theology is, Our Lady as Mediatrix of All Graces is arguably hinted at in Scripture itself, where Our Lady, Seat of Wisdom, is prophetically announced to be the Mother Full of Every Grace: "24 I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. 25 In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue. 26 Come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits." (Sir 24:24-26). This is the deep meaning of Our Lady being the "Full of Grace" (Luk 1:28; the Hail Mary); She is Full of every Grace and every Grace that comes from Christ passes through Her. "The Mother of Mercy

9. When we have recourse to Mary in prayer, we are having recourse to the Mother of mercy, who is so well disposed toward us that, whatever the necessity that presses upon us especially in attaining eternal life, she is instantly at our side of her own accord, even though she has not been invoked. She dispenses grace with a generous hand from that treasure with which from the beginning she was divinely endowed in fullest abundance that she might be worthy to be the Mother of God. By the fullness of grace which confers on her the most illustrious of her many titles, the Blessed Virgin is infinitely superior to all the hierarchies of men and angels, the one creature who is closest of all to Christ. "It is a great thing in any saint to have grace sufficient for the salvation of many souls; but to have enough to suffice for the salvation of everybody in the world, is the greatest of all; and this is found in Christ and in the Blessed Virgin."(1)

Jesus and Mary

10. It is impossible to say how pleasing and gratifying to her it is when we greet her with the Angelic Salutation, "full of grace"; and in repeating it, fashion these words of praise into ritual crowns for her. For every time we say them, we recall the memory of her exalted dignity and of the Redemption of the human race which God began through her. We likewise bring to mind the divine and everlasting bond which links her with the joys and sorrows, the humiliations and triumphs of Christ in directing and helping mankind to eternal life."
http://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_08091892_magnae-dei-matris.html

Christ's One Mediation is reflected in different ways both in His Mother and in the other Saints. Just like Christ's Mediation doesn't mean we cease praying to His Mother, so also Mary's secondary and subordinate mediation doesn't mean we cease praying to other Saints.

Hope that clears it up. God Bless.

This is a fair attempt, but its a little worrying we can only point to it being taught for 100 years. Remember that the Church has no power to add to the deposit of faith, so one would expect earlier references to it. In fairness, I know there are sources written much earlier that justify it. I am also happy to accept both doctrines in the way I mentioned earlier, but I am not sure that is what everyone means (and I am not sure I would subscribe to others interpretations) and I also feel it is important no one goes around accusing people of heresy or heterodoxy for thinking otherwise. Lastly, it would be good if someone could point to a decent theological work on the topic.

Just to be clear, Coredemptrix and Mediatrix are not Dogmas of the Church.  To my knowledge I don't think anyone in this thread has accused anyone else of heresy or heterodoxy for their opinions on it.  On January 1, 2008 five cardinals sent a letter to the world's bishops and cardinals asking them to sign a petition that asks Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma, proclaiming Mary as Mother of humanity, Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate for the human race.  It didn't happen.

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/mary-coredemptrix-mediatrix-and-advocate-5409
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline trentcath

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #151 on: May 03, 2021, 09:50:21 AM »
Hi TrentCath. We believe Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix with Christ and Mediatrix of All Graces because the Magisterium of the Church, going back over a 100 years, has taught us so. Wiki has this useful information: "The term Co-Redemptress was used by Pope Leo XIII in 1894.[3] "For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us..."

Co-Redemptrix was used three times by Roman Congregrations under Pope St. Pius X: "The first usages of the Co-redemptrix title in the official pronouncements of the Roman Congregations also take place under the Magisterium of St. Pius X. Co-redemptrix is used three times by the Holy See in the initiatives of three Congregations of the Curia, and is thus contained in the publication of their official acts, Acta Sanctae Sedis (later to become Acta Apostolicae Sedis)."[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-Redemptrix

As for "faith seeking understanding", which is what theology is, Our Lady as Mediatrix of All Graces is arguably hinted at in Scripture itself, where Our Lady, Seat of Wisdom, is prophetically announced to be the Mother Full of Every Grace: "24 I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. 25 In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue. 26 Come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits." (Sir 24:24-26). This is the deep meaning of Our Lady being the "Full of Grace" (Luk 1:28; the Hail Mary); She is Full of every Grace and every Grace that comes from Christ passes through Her. "The Mother of Mercy

9. When we have recourse to Mary in prayer, we are having recourse to the Mother of mercy, who is so well disposed toward us that, whatever the necessity that presses upon us especially in attaining eternal life, she is instantly at our side of her own accord, even though she has not been invoked. She dispenses grace with a generous hand from that treasure with which from the beginning she was divinely endowed in fullest abundance that she might be worthy to be the Mother of God. By the fullness of grace which confers on her the most illustrious of her many titles, the Blessed Virgin is infinitely superior to all the hierarchies of men and angels, the one creature who is closest of all to Christ. "It is a great thing in any saint to have grace sufficient for the salvation of many souls; but to have enough to suffice for the salvation of everybody in the world, is the greatest of all; and this is found in Christ and in the Blessed Virgin."(1)

Jesus and Mary

10. It is impossible to say how pleasing and gratifying to her it is when we greet her with the Angelic Salutation, "full of grace"; and in repeating it, fashion these words of praise into ritual crowns for her. For every time we say them, we recall the memory of her exalted dignity and of the Redemption of the human race which God began through her. We likewise bring to mind the divine and everlasting bond which links her with the joys and sorrows, the humiliations and triumphs of Christ in directing and helping mankind to eternal life."
http://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_08091892_magnae-dei-matris.html

Christ's One Mediation is reflected in different ways both in His Mother and in the other Saints. Just like Christ's Mediation doesn't mean we cease praying to His Mother, so also Mary's secondary and subordinate mediation doesn't mean we cease praying to other Saints.

Hope that clears it up. God Bless.

This is a fair attempt, but its a little worrying we can only point to it being taught for 100 years. Remember that the Church has no power to add to the deposit of faith, so one would expect earlier references to it. In fairness, I know there are sources written much earlier that justify it. I am also happy to accept both doctrines in the way I mentioned earlier, but I am not sure that is what everyone means (and I am not sure I would subscribe to others interpretations) and I also feel it is important no one goes around accusing people of heresy or heterodoxy for thinking otherwise. Lastly, it would be good if someone could point to a decent theological work on the topic.

Just to be clear, Coredemptrix and Mediatrix are not Dogmas of the Church.  To my knowledge I don't think anyone in this thread has accused anyone else of heresy or heterodoxy for their opinions on it.  On January 1, 2008 five cardinals sent a letter to the world's bishops and cardinals asking them to sign a petition that asks Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma, proclaiming Mary as Mother of humanity, Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate for the human race.  It didn't happen.

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/mary-coredemptrix-mediatrix-and-advocate-5409

Isn't the whole crux of this thread that Francis is heterodox for denying said doctrines?
 

Offline Innocent Smith

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #152 on: May 03, 2021, 02:16:02 PM »

Just to be clear, Coredemptrix and Mediatrix are not Dogmas of the Church.  To my knowledge I don't think anyone in this thread has accused anyone else of heresy or heterodoxy for their opinions on it.  On January 1, 2008 five cardinals sent a letter to the world's bishops and cardinals asking them to sign a petition that asks Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma, proclaiming Mary as Mother of humanity, Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate for the human race.  It didn't happen.

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/mary-coredemptrix-mediatrix-and-advocate-5409

So what?  Five cardinals with nothing better to offer the more conservative Catholics.  In other words they throw some a bone.  This declaration plus fifty cents would buy you a cup of coffee in 1987.

It is nothing more than a testament to their weakness, irrelevance and impotence. 

There may be more important issues for them to tackle in a public way. 
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #153 on: May 03, 2021, 03:31:13 PM »
Hi TrentCath. We believe Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix with Christ and Mediatrix of All Graces because the Magisterium of the Church, going back over a 100 years, has taught us so. Wiki has this useful information: "The term Co-Redemptress was used by Pope Leo XIII in 1894.[3] "For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us..."

Co-Redemptrix was used three times by Roman Congregrations under Pope St. Pius X: "The first usages of the Co-redemptrix title in the official pronouncements of the Roman Congregations also take place under the Magisterium of St. Pius X. Co-redemptrix is used three times by the Holy See in the initiatives of three Congregations of the Curia, and is thus contained in the publication of their official acts, Acta Sanctae Sedis (later to become Acta Apostolicae Sedis)."[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-Redemptrix

As for "faith seeking understanding", which is what theology is, Our Lady as Mediatrix of All Graces is arguably hinted at in Scripture itself, where Our Lady, Seat of Wisdom, is prophetically announced to be the Mother Full of Every Grace: "24 I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. 25 In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue. 26 Come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits." (Sir 24:24-26). This is the deep meaning of Our Lady being the "Full of Grace" (Luk 1:28; the Hail Mary); She is Full of every Grace and every Grace that comes from Christ passes through Her. "The Mother of Mercy

9. When we have recourse to Mary in prayer, we are having recourse to the Mother of mercy, who is so well disposed toward us that, whatever the necessity that presses upon us especially in attaining eternal life, she is instantly at our side of her own accord, even though she has not been invoked. She dispenses grace with a generous hand from that treasure with which from the beginning she was divinely endowed in fullest abundance that she might be worthy to be the Mother of God. By the fullness of grace which confers on her the most illustrious of her many titles, the Blessed Virgin is infinitely superior to all the hierarchies of men and angels, the one creature who is closest of all to Christ. "It is a great thing in any saint to have grace sufficient for the salvation of many souls; but to have enough to suffice for the salvation of everybody in the world, is the greatest of all; and this is found in Christ and in the Blessed Virgin."(1)

Jesus and Mary

10. It is impossible to say how pleasing and gratifying to her it is when we greet her with the Angelic Salutation, "full of grace"; and in repeating it, fashion these words of praise into ritual crowns for her. For every time we say them, we recall the memory of her exalted dignity and of the Redemption of the human race which God began through her. We likewise bring to mind the divine and everlasting bond which links her with the joys and sorrows, the humiliations and triumphs of Christ in directing and helping mankind to eternal life."
http://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_08091892_magnae-dei-matris.html

Christ's One Mediation is reflected in different ways both in His Mother and in the other Saints. Just like Christ's Mediation doesn't mean we cease praying to His Mother, so also Mary's secondary and subordinate mediation doesn't mean we cease praying to other Saints.

Hope that clears it up. God Bless.

This is a fair attempt, but its a little worrying we can only point to it being taught for 100 years. Remember that the Church has no power to add to the deposit of faith, so one would expect earlier references to it. In fairness, I know there are sources written much earlier that justify it. I am also happy to accept both doctrines in the way I mentioned earlier, but I am not sure that is what everyone means (and I am not sure I would subscribe to others interpretations) and I also feel it is important no one goes around accusing people of heresy or heterodoxy for thinking otherwise. Lastly, it would be good if someone could point to a decent theological work on the topic.

Just to be clear, Coredemptrix and Mediatrix are not Dogmas of the Church.  To my knowledge I don't think anyone in this thread has accused anyone else of heresy or heterodoxy for their opinions on it.  On January 1, 2008 five cardinals sent a letter to the world's bishops and cardinals asking them to sign a petition that asks Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma, proclaiming Mary as Mother of humanity, Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate for the human race.  It didn't happen.

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/mary-coredemptrix-mediatrix-and-advocate-5409

Isn't the whole crux of this thread that Francis is heterodox for denying said doctrines?

No, not really.  Jayne mentioned this in the first post in this thread.

Since this was not declared a dogma, I don't think it qualifies as heresy, but it is a deeply disturbing display of distancing himself from the traditional teaching of the Church.  I realize that this is not new for him, and perhaps not the most theologically significant incident, but I'm finding it very upsetting.

People are upset that Francis is denying Our Lady's title of Co-Redemptrix, you know, seeing as Xavier pointed out above that previous popes have used the title for Our Lady.  But it's not a heresy.  Just Francis being Francis, pissing people off again.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

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Offline Jayne

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #154 on: May 03, 2021, 05:56:04 PM »
This thread managed about one page of discussion of the subject line.  Most of it has been about St. Louis de Montfort and Marian devotion associated with him.  There was also a sprinkling of discussion of Marian devotion in general with a dash of ranting by Gerard.  There was a pinch of current events and a picture of an ostrich.  In other words, a typical SD thread.

Clearly trentcath has not been spending enough time here since he seems to have expected us to have been discussing the topic of the thread.  :grin:
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Offline Gerard

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #155 on: May 03, 2021, 10:46:48 PM »

Just to be clear, Coredemptrix and Mediatrix are not Dogmas of the Church.  To my knowledge I don't think anyone in this thread has accused anyone else of heresy or heterodoxy for their opinions on it.  On January 1, 2008 five cardinals sent a letter to the world's bishops and cardinals asking them to sign a petition that asks Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma, proclaiming Mary as Mother of humanity, Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate for the human race.  It didn't happen.

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/mary-coredemptrix-mediatrix-and-advocate-5409

It's probably a good thing that it didn't happen to title her as Mother of Humanity because St. Eve is the Mother of Humanity and humanity is fallen.  Our Lady becomes our spiritual Mother at Baptism.  People are so doctrinally stunted, it seems  you can't have them NOT misunderstand any of these titles.  It's the exact opposite of providing clarity.  Calling her Mother of Humanity added to all of the other confusion sounds like a modernist trick to bring more Gaia/Nature/Goddess worship into the Church. 

Somebody above even wrote that she's the Co-Redemptrix WITH Jesus, as if He's the sidekick. I don't think the person meant it that way but people are simply not careful with how things can be misconstrued through an imprecise description. 

Co-Redemptrix simply means that because the Blessed Mother once again gave her "Fiat" to the Passion and Death of Jesus and did not demand He stop and thereby force Him to obey the 4th commandment. She participated a priori in the Redemption by not invoking her "veto" power as His Mother. 

She did not hang on the cross, her sorrow and suffering did not expiate sins, she did not offer the one sacrifice that redeemed mankind.  She made the one sacrifice that allowed Jesus to make the one sacrifice that redeemed mankind.  Just as Eve's sin did not cause the fall of Man, Eve was instrumental in Adam's sin causing the fall of Man.  The BVM suffered personally and deeply and privately and that sorrow HE took to Himself on the cross with everything else.  Everything she offers is subordinate to Him, it has to be understood that despite her marvelous perfections, she doesn't come close to making a comparable sacrifice to His, because she is not God (she's a finite being.)  She's far and away beyond anyone else's subordinate participation but she's closer to St. John (since he is also finite) than she is to Jesus (since He is Infinite)  if we're going to give the proper perspective.  No matter how beyond anyone else she is, the distance between finite and infinite is infinite. 


 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #156 on: May 04, 2021, 07:12:04 PM »
On Mary's "Immediate" Co-operation with the Redemption, here is the text of "Sacrae Theologiae Summa"
Quote
Corredemptrix
Sacrae Theologiae Summa
Vol IIIA; pg. 445 ffdd:
The cooperation of Mary in the work of the redemption is affirmed constantly. And that is not only in the application of the redemption, but also in its accomplishment; for these two sometimes are expressly distinguished (Leo XIII, St. Pius X). This cooperation is also different from the divine maternity (Pius XII).
The root of that cooperation is located in the mystical union with Christ. This is not a mere joining together of the Mother with the Son; rather, it is had by a special divine will to admit and associate Her with Christ in the work of the redemption. Hence:
Theological note. That Mary cooperated in the work of redemption, At least mediately, is a matter of faith (de fide).
b) That she also cooperated immediately is a doctrine more in conformity with the quoted texts of the Holy Pontiffs. Indeed these texts, taken together as a whole, signify the constant teaching for a century of the Roman Pontiffs proposed to the whole Church more clearly with the passage of time. For they are not unaware of the disputes of theologians over this matter.
c) That the title of Corredemptrix is used rightly is certain; and it is not licit to doubt about its suitability.
The Priesthood of Mary;
 Sacrae Theologia Summa IIIA. Pgs. 465, 466
However there is still a question  about whether a greater form of cooperation must be admitted, namely, a cooperation that is strictly priestly, so that Mary can be said to have accomplished with Christ the sacrifice itself of the cross. And this seems to be the case from some of the statements. For Mary is said to have renounced her rights to the victim for the salvation of mankind. Moreover it is said that she “offered her Son willingly to Divine Justice,” “offered a victim on the cross”; indeed, “immolated her Son to placate the Divine Justice as much as she could”; and that she did this not as a private person, but “as the second Eve.” Finally, She offered her sufferings and maternal rights together with her Son in a holocaust.

In order to explain these texts it has been said that the term “offered” must be taken only in a broad sense. However, if that term were used once in passing that could readily be admitted. But this term is repeated frequently, in a completely sacrificial context, in relation to the sacrifice of the cross, in reference to its victim, in reference to its redemptive efficacy, It does not seem that all of these points can be explained by a broad use of the term. That is even more the case, because some of the quoted words were written after the well-known disputes of the theologians on this matter, and they are certainly not restrictive words. Therefore it seems necessary to admit a special cooperation of Mary in the sacrifice of the cross, which is her immediate moral cooperation and in a sacrificial way. And this is not surprising, since Mary is not just the Mother of Christ, but she is also associated with Him in the work of accomplishing the redemption;  this work was consummated in the sacrifice of the cross.
i88 c) Can this cooperation of Mary be said to be strictly priestly, so that the sacrifice of the cross was offered at the same time by Christ and by Mary, from which Mary would also have a corresponding priesthood? A threefold priesthood is distinguished in the New Testament;: the first is the priesthood of Christ, supreme and eternal; the second is the ministerial priesthood, which is had in the Church through the sacrament of Holy Orders; the third is the general and broad priesthood of all the Christian faithful, which is mentioned by St. Peter (1 Pet. 2: 9).
The cooperation of the Virgin in the sacrifice of the cross cannot be reduced to an act of this last type of priesthood. This is so only because this priesthood refers to the Eucharistic sacrifice, while Mary cooperated in the sacrifice of the cross; but also because Mary in a very special way united with the Victim, in a singular way was joined together with Christ in the work of accomplishing the redemption. Mary’s cooperation in the sacrifice of the cross cannot be reduced to an act of the ministerial priesthood, since without doubt Mary did not possess such priesthood, nor could she have it. Therefore it seems fitting to affirm some participation of the Virgin in the priesthood of Christ, because of which she is said to possess a type of priesthood below that of Christ, but above our ministerial priesthood.
b) That she also cooperated immediately is a doctrine more in conformity with the quoted texts of the Holy Pontiffs. Indeed these texts, taken together as a whole, signify the constant teaching for a century of the Roman Pontiffs proposed to the whole Church more clearly with the passage of time. For they are not unaware of the disputes of theologians over this matter...
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Offline Gerard

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #157 on: May 04, 2021, 09:02:27 PM »
Here's the problem.  There is a tautology being offered in these strange and exaggerated misunderstandings of Mary's role. 

Our Lady is sinless in her life, she has no concupiscence since she was immaculately conceived.

How does the Church teach that her immaculate conception was justified? 

It was justified a priori from the benefits of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that would occur later in time.

So the idea is, the BVM in some "special" way merits Christ's sacrifice of God to God as her sacrifice as well as His, having redemptive merit for the whole world and not simply her analogous participation as Eve participated in Adam's fall. 

The end result is the deification of Mary to the point where she becomes a part of the Holy Trinity because she merits her own justification, but that's only if you ignore that her perfections are given to her in anticipation of the sacrifice on the Cross.  So she becomes her own self-justification before God instead of His greatest creation.
 
This is paying the credit card bill by drawing cash from the same credit card to pay the bill.  That's the Federal Reserve, not God's Justice being satisfied. 

She cooperates "immediately"  in the sacrifice of the Cross that she has already benefited from by having already been conceived immaculately based on her own cooperation in the sacrifice of Christ?

That ultimately doesn't hold water. 

Pius XII warned of this in his encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam.

Quote
"Theologians and preachers, however, when treating these and like questions concerning the Blessed Virgin, must avoid straying from the correct course, with a twofold error to guard against: that is to say, they must beware of unfounded opinions and exaggerated expressions which go beyond the truth, on the other hand, they must watch out for excessive narrowness of mind in weighing that exceptional, sublime, indeed all but divine dignity of the Mother of God, which the Angelic Doctor teaches must be attributed to her "because of the infinite goodness that is God."


 

Offline Gerard

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #158 on: May 04, 2021, 09:43:36 PM »
Let's go over this with a fine toothed comb. 


On Mary's "Immediate" Co-operation with the Redemption, here is the text of "Sacrae Theologiae Summa"
Quote
Corredemptrix
Sacrae Theologiae Summa
Vol IIIA; pg. 445 ffdd:
The cooperation of Mary in the work of the redemption is affirmed constantly. albeit in different ways, not all consistent with one another

And that is not only in the application of the redemption, but also in its accomplishment;


for these two sometimes are expressly distinguished (Leo XIII, St. Pius X).

This cooperation is also different from the divine maternity (Pius XII).

I'd like to know what the specific references are to the Popes listed.  It's not that I don't trust the writer, but....well... on second thought, ..I don't trust the writer. 
 
The root of that cooperation is located in the mystical union with Christ.  That's nice and vague.

This is not a mere joining together of the Mother with the Son;  Why does Mary's union with Jesus as Mother and Son have to be minimized?




rather, it is had by a special divine will to admit and associate Her with Christ in the work of the redemption.  Based on what?

 Hence:
Theological note. That Mary cooperated in the work of redemption, At least mediately, is a matter of faith (de fide). That's non-sequitur. He's given no reason to believe anything and has not authority to declare the matter closed. The unmitigated arrogance of these theologians who foist their ideas on the faithful without authority or warrant.
 
b) That she also cooperated immediately is a doctrine more in conformity with the quoted texts of the Holy Pontiffs. Indeed these texts, taken together as a whole, signify the constant teaching for a century of the Roman Pontiffs proposed to the whole Church more clearly with the passage of time.  Not sure this is accurate concerning cherry picked quotes of Popes.  And a century is nothing in the life of the Church.  The only century that matters is the first one when it comes to doctrine and dogma. 


 For they are not unaware of the disputes of theologians over this matter. I thought it was de fide.  Why would there be disputes?



c) That the title of Corredemptrix is used rightly is certain; and it is not licit to doubt about its suitability. Except that there are and rightly so. 
The Priesthood of Mary; 
 Sacrae Theologia Summa IIIA. Pgs. 465, 466
However there is still a question  about whether a greater form of cooperation must be admitted, namely, a cooperation that is strictly priestly, so that Mary can be said to have accomplished with Christ the sacrifice itself of the cross. And this seems to be the case from some of the statements.  No. This is wrong. It doesn't "seem" to be the case at all.   


For Mary is said to have renounced her rights to the victim for the salvation of mankind.  Out of obedience to God the Father who deemed it necessary.


Moreover it is said that she “offered her Son willingly to Divine Justice,” “offered a victim on the cross”; indeed, “immolated her Son to placate the Divine Justice as much as she could”; and that she did this not as a private person, but “as the second Eve.” Finally, She offered her sufferings and maternal rights together with her Son in a holocaust.

 "It is said...." by who? No. He offered Himself and she did not stand in His way. She knew her place.  He was in charge of the sacrifice.  He took on her motherly suffering on the cross.
 

In order to explain these texts it has been said that the term “offered” must be taken only in a broad sense. However, if that term were used once in passing that could readily be admitted. But this term is repeated frequently, in a completely sacrificial context, in relation to the sacrifice of the cross, in reference to its victim, in reference to its redemptive efficacy,

In other words repeating an error makes it true.  We don't even know what the full quotes are.
 


It does not seem that all of these points can be explained by a broad use of the term. It may not "seem" that way, but that's the way to go with them. 


That is even more the case, because some of the quoted words were written after the well-known disputes of the theologians on this matter, and they are certainly not restrictive words. Therefore it seems necessary to admit a special cooperation of Mary in the sacrifice of the cross, which is her immediate moral cooperation and in a sacrificial way. And this is not surprising, since Mary is not just the Mother of Christ, but she is also associated with Him in the work of accomplishing the redemption;  this work was consummated in the sacrifice of the cross.

"...it seems necessary" No it doesn't.   And look at that blasphemous phrase, "since Mary is NOT JUST the Mother of Christ" minimizing both her and our Lord.  And what does "associated" mean?


i88 c) Can this cooperation of Mary be said to be strictly priestly, so that the sacrifice of the cross was offered at the same time by Christ and by Mary, from which Mary would also have a corresponding priesthood?

No.

A threefold priesthood is distinguished in the New Testament;: the first is the priesthood of Christ, supreme and eternal; the second is the ministerial priesthood, which is had in the Church through the sacrament of Holy Orders; the third is the general and broad priesthood of all the Christian faithful, which is mentioned by St. Peter (1 Pet. 2: 9). okay

The cooperation of the Virgin in the sacrifice of the cross cannot be reduced to an act of this last type of priesthood. Yes it can.  It's not reduced at all. Mary is a lay person, the first and best to unite herself to Christ on the Cross. 

This is so only because this priesthood refers to the Eucharistic sacrifice, while Mary cooperated in the sacrifice of the cross; but also because Mary in a very special way united with the Victim, in a singular way was joined together with Christ in the work of accomplishing the redemption. 

This is ridiculous, it's "simply" making an argument for women priests.  Mary cannot and never did confect the Eucharist and Christ did not say "This is my body and my Mom's body..This is the chalice of my blood and my Mom's blood of the new and eternal testament, we are shedding it for you and for the many unto the remission of sins." 


Mary’s cooperation in the sacrifice of the cross cannot be reduced to an act of the ministerial priesthood,  Notice that Mary is now placed above the Eucharist? Christ Himself? She can't be "reduced" to an alter Christus. 


... since without doubt Mary did not possess such priesthood, nor could she have it.  He doesn't explain why though or why it's such a step down for her.



Therefore it seems fitting to affirm some participation of the Virgin in the priesthood of Christ, because of which she is said to possess a type of priesthood below that of Christ, but above our ministerial priesthood.

As if the ministerial priesthood isn't a share of the one priesthood of Christ himself.  "It seems fitting" is really, "we're gonna shoehorn something in here because we want to and we'll twist anything we can to make it happen."



 
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Offline Jayne

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #159 on: May 05, 2021, 10:23:59 AM »
How odd to see Gerard quote Ad Caeli Reginam in support of his views.  This encyclical, while not using the term Co-redemptrix, gives a very good explanation of what Catholics mean by this title:

Quote
36. Now, in the accomplishing of this work of redemption, the Blessed Virgin Mary was most closely associated with Christ; and so it is fitting to sing in the sacred liturgy: "Near the cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ there stood, sorrowful, the Blessed Mary, Queen of Heaven and Queen of the World."[46] Hence, as the devout disciple of St. Anselm (Eadmer, ed.) wrote in the Middle Ages: "just as . . . God, by making all through His power, is Father and Lord of all, so the blessed Mary, by repairing all through her merits, is Mother and Queen of all; for God is the Lord of all things, because by His command He establishes each of them in its own nature, and Mary is the Queen of all things, because she restores each to its original dignity through the grace which she merited.[47]

37. For "just as Christ, because He redeemed us, is our Lord and king by a special title, so the Blessed Virgin also (is our queen), on account of the unique manner in which she assisted in our redemption, by giving of her own substance, by freely offering Him for us, by her singular desire and petition for, and active interest in, our salvation."[48]

38. From these considerations, the proof develops on these lines: if Mary, in taking an active part in the work of salvation, was, by God's design, associated with Jesus Christ, the source of salvation itself, in a manner comparable to that in which Eve was associated with Adam, the source of death, so that it may be stated that the work of our salvation was accomplished by a kind of "recapitulation,"[49] in which a virgin was instrumental in the salvation of the human race, just as a virgin had been closely associated with its death; if, moreover, it can likewise be stated that this glorious Lady had been chosen Mother of Christ "in order that she might become a partner in the redemption of the human race";[50] and if, in truth, "it was she who, free of the stain of actual and original sin, and ever most closely bound to her Son, on Golgotha offered that Son to the Eternal Father together with the complete sacrifice of her maternal rights and maternal love, like a new Eve, for all the sons of Adam, stained as they were by his lamentable fall,"[51] then it may be legitimately concluded that as Christ, the new Adam, must be called a King not merely because He is Son of God, but also because He is our Redeemer, so, analogously, the Most Blessed Virgin is queen not only because she is Mother of God, but also because, as the new Eve, she was associated with the new Adam.

39. Certainly, in the full and strict meaning of the term, only Jesus Christ, the God-Man, is King; but Mary, too, as Mother of the divine Christ, as His associate in the redemption, in his struggle with His enemies and His final victory over them, has a share, though in a limited and analogous way, in His royal dignity. For from her union with Christ she attains a radiant eminence transcending that of any other creature; from her union with Christ she receives the royal right to dispose of the treasures of the Divine Redeemer's Kingdom; from her union with Christ finally is derived the inexhaustible efficacy of her maternal intercession before the Son and His Father.
http://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam.html

Catholics believe, as shown in the above, that the Blessed Virgin Mary is, in a unique way, Christ's assistant and partner in our redemption.  Many have wanted to express this truth by giving her the title Co-Redemptrix.  It is absurd to think that Pius XII, who wrote the above quote, considers this is an unfounded opinion or exaggerated expression.
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Offline Gerard

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #160 on: May 05, 2021, 12:02:07 PM »
How odd to see Gerard quote Ad Caeli Reginam in support of his views.  This encyclical, while not using the term Co-redemptrix, gives a very good explanation of what Catholics mean by this title:

It's not odd at all.  If you actually read my posts instead of glancing at them and then complaining and ranting you'd probably understand. 


Quote
Quote
36. Now, in the accomplishing of this work of redemption, the Blessed Virgin Mary was most closely associated with Christ; and so it is fitting to sing in the sacred liturgy: "Near the cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ there stood, sorrowful, the Blessed Mary, Queen of Heaven and Queen of the World."[46] Hence, as the devout disciple of St. Anselm (Eadmer, ed.) wrote in the Middle Ages: "just as . . . God, by making all through His power, is Father and Lord of all, so the blessed Mary, by repairing all through her merits, is Mother and Queen of all; for God is the Lord of all things, because by His command He establishes each of them in its own nature, and Mary is the Queen of all things, because she restores each to its original dignity through the grace which she merited.[47]


Notice it says, "near the cross" not "on the cross." 

Re: Her merits.  Her merits are inherent in her perfections which are given to her by Christ in anticipation of His sacrifice on the Cross.  It's God's work in her, not her work in the passion that restores all things to their original dignity.  She is the fruit of the passion of Christ, not the agent of the passion. 

Quote
37. For "just as Christ, because He redeemed us, is our Lord and king by a special title, so the Blessed Virgin also (is our queen), on account of the unique manner in which she assisted in our redemption, by giving of her own substance, by freely offering Him for us, by her singular desire and petition for, and active interest in, our salvation."[48]

As stated before, her "fiat" in not being an obstacle for His mission is what her sacrifice is, it's a separate sacrifice and  different one from His sacrifice.  If anyone has ever wondered why God allowed St. Joseph to die before Christ started His ministry it's because St. Joseph would have been bound to fight for his son and would have been an obstacle to the Passion. 

Quote
38. From these considerations, the proof develops on these lines: if Mary, in taking an active part in the work of salvation, was, by God's design, associated with Jesus Christ, the source of salvation itself, in a manner comparable to that in which Eve was associated with Adam, the source of death, so that it may be stated that the work of our salvation was accomplished by a kind of "recapitulation,"[49] in which a virgin was instrumental in the salvation of the human race, just as a virgin had been closely associated with its death; if, moreover, it can likewise be stated that this glorious Lady had been chosen Mother of Christ "in order that she might become a partner in the redemption of the human race";[50] and if, in truth, "it was she who, free of the stain of actual and original sin, and ever most closely bound to her Son, on Golgotha offered that Son to the Eternal Father together with the complete sacrifice of her maternal rights and maternal love, like a new Eve, for all the sons of Adam, stained as they were by his lamentable fall,"[51] then it may be legitimately concluded that as Christ, the new Adam, must be called a King not merely because He is Son of God, but also because He is our Redeemer, so, analogously, the Most Blessed Virgin is queen not only because she is Mother of God, but also because, as the new Eve, she was associated with the new Adam.

This is essentially what I stated earlier in the thread.  And the point of the topic is not Co-Redemption but rather the title of Queen of Heaven.  Not Co-King of Heaven. 

Quote
39. Certainly, in the full and strict meaning of the term, only Jesus Christ, the God-Man, is King; but Mary, too, as Mother of the divine Christ, as His associate in the redemption, in his struggle with His enemies and His final victory over them, has a share, though in a limited and analogous way, in His royal dignity. For from her union with Christ she attains a radiant eminence transcending that of any other creature; from her union with Christ she receives the royal right to dispose of the treasures of the Divine Redeemer's Kingdom; from her union with Christ finally is derived the inexhaustible efficacy of her maternal intercession before the Son and His Father.
 

You'll notice in this passage that Mary is the recipient of the fruits of Christ's passion.  She does not accomplish redemption or share in redemption except only by analogy and that is limited where Christ's redemption is infinite. This is exactly what I stated previously on the thread. 

She attains eminence from Him, not, she shares their mutual eminence, Her royal dignity is not "their royal dignity" it is her dignity is given from His dignity. It's His cross, not their cross, His victory, His dignity, His Kingdom. 

Her participation is exclusive of His participation and any understanding of Her participation must be understood as analogous and limited whereas Christ's is substantive and infinite. 

There is not one Infinite Redemptive offering by two people.  There is one Redemptive offering by Christ and an analogous limited human an meritorious offering of the same kind that Catholics offer at every Mass.  Though the difference in quality between Mary's offering at the cross and ours are vastly different.  And this is due to the very special graces that Mary was given in anticipation of the Sacrifice of Calvary. 

It's an interesting and compelling Catch-22 of the Passion to know that while Christ took on our sins on the Cross.  He took on the sorrow of Mary, which compounded His suffering and she would probably have known this unless He protected her from it.  But if she did know, this would have compounded her own sorrow to know that the price paid on the Cross for her Immaculate Conception would have been possibly higher than that of the sinful mass of humanity.   


Quote
Catholics believe, as shown in the above, that the Blessed Virgin Mary is, in a unique way, Christ's assistant and partner in our redemption.  Many have wanted to express this truth by giving her the title Co-Redemptrix.  It is absurd to think that Pius XII, who wrote the above quote, considers this is an unfounded opinion or exaggerated expression.

No. This is an example of the exaggerated expressions that go beyond the truth. 

« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 12:43:04 PM by Gerard »
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #161 on: May 05, 2021, 06:42:14 PM »
Gerard,
thanks for your detailed response; I can't reply in the same detail; but I think we can nail down the essential issue that divides us:"Did the B.V.M. Co-operate "mediately" or "immediately" with the Redemption.
"Mediately": Signifies, that Our Lady gave her Maternal consent for her Son to die on the Cross;
"Immediately": Signifies that she also participated in the work of the Redemption, by participating in the sorrows and sufferings of Her Divine Son and offering Him and his sacrifice to the Blessed Trinity in union with Her Son.
The passage quoted by Jane (Pius XII, Ad Caeli Reginam) clearly refers to the "Immediate" Co-operation with the redemption:
Quote
38. From these considerations, the proof develops on these lines: if Mary, in taking an active part in the work of salvation, was, by God's design, associated with Jesus Christ, the source of salvation itself, in a manner comparable to that in which Eve was associated with Adam, the source of death, so that it may be stated that the work of our salvation was accomplished by a kind of "recapitulation,"[49] in which a virgin was instrumental in the salvation of the human race, just as a virgin had been closely associated with its death; if, moreover, it can likewise be stated that this glorious Lady had been chosen Mother of Christ "in order that she might become a partner in the redemption of the human race";[50] and if, in truth, "it was she who, free of the stain of actual and original sin, and ever most closely bound to her Son, on Golgotha offered that Son to the Eternal Father together with the complete sacrifice of her maternal rights and maternal love, like a new Eve, for all the sons of Adam, stained as they were by his lamentable fall,"[51] then it may be legitimately concluded that as Christ, the new Adam, must be called a King not merely because He is Son of God, but also because He is our Redeemer, so, analogously, the Most Blessed Virgin is queen not only because she is Mother of God, but also because, as the new Eve, she was associated with the new Adam.

Pope Leo XIII in Jucunda Semper stated the very same doctrine:
Quote
Jucunda semper (1894) Pope Leo states that “when Mary offered herself completely to God together with her Son in the temple, she was already sharing with Him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race… (at the foot of the cross) she willingly offered Him up to the divine justice, dying with Him in her heart, pierced by the sword of sorrow.”
There it is: "She willingly offered Him up to the divine justice..."
Benedict XV in "Inter Sodalitia" teaches the same doctrine:
Quote
“To such extent did (Mary) suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for man’s salvation, and immolated Him—insofar as she could—in order to appease the justice of God, that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ.”
Again: "She... immolate Him-as far as she could-in order to appease the justice of God...that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ.
So we have three Popes: Pius XII; Leos XIII; and Benedict XV; as well as a manual of Dogmatic Theology all concurring in the same doctrine: Mary co-operated with her Son in the redemption of the Human Race; just as Eve co-operated with Adam in its fall; she not only surrendered her maternal rights, but along with her divine Son offered His sacrifice on Mt. Calvary for our salvation.
If you want to dispute this doctrine, rightly you would have to cite the teachings of other Popes to the contrary.   
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Offline Elizabeth.2

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #162 on: May 05, 2021, 08:06:12 PM »
Pope Leo XIII is good enough for me, Michael.
 
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #163 on: May 05, 2021, 10:53:09 PM »
...
So we have three Popes: Pius XII; Leos XIII; and Benedict XV; as well as a manual of Dogmatic Theology all concurring in the same doctrine: Mary co-operated with her Son in the redemption of the Human Race; just as Eve co-operated with Adam in its fall; she not only surrendered her maternal rights, but along with her divine Son offered His sacrifice on Mt. Calvary for our salvation.
If you want to dispute this doctrine, rightly you would have to cite the teachings of other Popes to the contrary.

Well he could quote Francis.   :)

Edit to add; I know Co-redemtrix is not a Dogma of the Church.  Can we rightfully call Mary's title Co-redemtrix a doctrine though?  By being a doctrine it would be considered part of the Church Magisterial teachings, would it not?  "A rejection of Church Magisterial teachings is a de facto rejection of the divine revelation. It is considered the mortal sin of heresy if the heretical opinion is held with full knowledge ..."  If a doctrine is part of Magisterial teachings then Mary's title Co-redemtrix must not be considered a doctrine of the Church, otherwise Francis has committed the mortal sin of heresy.  Correct me if and where I'm wrong, but I don't think we can call Co-redemtrix a doctrine of the Church.


By the way, this page claims that seven popes have taught the substance of the title Co-Redemptrix.

https://www.crisismagazine.com/2019/mary-as-co-redemptrix-gods-foolishness

Quote
Mary as Co-Redemptrix: God’s Foolishness

“The foolishness of God is wiser than men.” (1 Corinthians 1:25)

There is no Catholic dogma on Mary as Co-Redemptrix. However, several popes (Pius IX, Leo XIII, Pius X, Benedict XV, Pius XI, Pius XII, and John Paul II) have taught the substance of this title; a separate essay could establish that point. ...
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 12:07:40 AM by mikemac »
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Offline Jayne

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #164 on: May 06, 2021, 08:44:51 AM »
Edit to add; I know Co-redemtrix is not a Dogma of the Church.  Can we rightfully call Mary's title Co-redemtrix a doctrine though?  By being a doctrine it would be considered part of the Church Magisterial teachings, would it not?  "A rejection of Church Magisterial teachings is a de facto rejection of the divine revelation. It is considered the mortal sin of heresy if the heretical opinion is held with full knowledge ..."  If a doctrine is part of Magisterial teachings then Mary's title Co-redemtrix must not be considered a doctrine of the Church, otherwise Francis has committed the mortal sin of heresy.  Correct me if and where I'm wrong, but I don't think we can call Co-redemtrix a doctrine of the Church.

Marian titles, in general, are like a shorthand for a doctrine.  They aren't meant to be interpreted subjectively, but only as the Church intends them.  There is a body of teaching on Our Lady's unique role in Christ's work of redemption.  This can reasonably be considered doctrine that Catholics ought to accept.  Many, including popes, have expressed this doctrine with the title Co-Redemptrix.  However, it has not been taught that we are obliged to use the title.

Pope Benedict, for example, re-affirmed the teaching, but thought it was imprudent to use the title due to the danger of it being misunderstood.  Francis, on the other hand, sounded like he was questioning the teaching itself, rather than the title.  As usual, he speaks so imprecisely and ambiguously, that it would be hard to prove that he is denying doctrine. The category "offensive to pious ears" is probably better than "heresy" in this situation.
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