Suscipe Domine Traditional Catholic Forum

The Church Courtyard => Catholic Liturgical Life => Topic started by: Daniel on March 21, 2021, 02:59:51 PM

Title: Permanent deacons?
Post by: Daniel on March 21, 2021, 02:59:51 PM
What is the history behind "permanent deacons"? They seem common in the NO, but I have never seen them at TLM parishes. Is this a novelty, or is there any traditional basis for it?
Title: Re: Permanent deacons?
Post by: Prayerful on March 21, 2021, 05:21:06 PM
It results from V2, Lumen Gentium in general and the motu proprio Sacrum Diaconatus Ordinem specifically. It's a NuChurch, so probably best avoided, although I do know some permanent deacons on Twitter seem sound enough.
Title: Re: Permanent deacons?
Post by: Jacob on March 21, 2021, 08:25:40 PM
As Father Z likes to point out, deacons are a result of their formation.  Some of them are well trained and are orthodox, knowing their roles.
Title: Re: Permanent deacons?
Post by: Jmartyr on March 23, 2021, 07:55:33 PM
Archbishop Lefebvre , if I remember correctly, was ok with the idea as long as they remained unmarried.
Title: Re: Permanent deacons?
Post by: drummerboy on March 24, 2021, 01:18:57 AM
My biggest criticism is, despite their ordained status, they still cannot administer any sacrament that the laity can't themselves, namely Baptism and Matrimony.  Obviously, the difference is deacon are indeed ordained, and can thus administer these in a regular scenario whereas laity only in irregular, besides other liturgical functions.  I fancy this is part of the reason they faded away: if you're one step from the priesthood, then why not?
Title: Re: Permanent deacons?
Post by: Christina_S on March 24, 2021, 11:08:26 AM
I know of a few married permanent deacons. One in particular is quite decent, as far as NO Catholics go. His problem is that NO priests know what to do with a deacon, since they themselves were only deacons for a few months before priestly ordination. So the deacon is basically just an altar server on Sundays. Susan from the parish council carries out all the hospital/long-term care ministries, admin tasks, etc. while the deacon is not assigned anything.

Overall, not a fan of permanent deacons, especially if the man is married. I know that many defenders of it will say "No, no, it's not going to lead to married priests! Pshaw!" But a married man has obligations to his family, however big or small it may be. That comes first.
Title: Re: Permanent deacons?
Post by: drummerboy on March 27, 2021, 01:55:11 PM
  Another objection to permanent deacons, although this is incidental, and not related the institution itself: every permanent deacon I've met is a well to do, affluent older white man.  I'm not doubting their sincerity, they do seem genuine and it is a sacrifice to give over a time of your life which most men would rather spend on hobbies, travel, with family, etc (i.e. retirement), but I fear the danger that it could slowly morph into something that you just do when you get that age. 

  Furthermore, as anyone who has attended a solemn high Mass would know, the priest still retains his character of deacon and sub-deacon, hence their serving as such at Mass.  Perhaps the NO had to restore permanent deacons because this aspect is given no expression in the NO and their absence was rather conspicuous.
Title: Re: Permanent deacons?
Post by: Christina_S on March 27, 2021, 04:05:33 PM
I know of a few married permanent deacons. One in particular is quite decent, as far as NO Catholics go. His problem is that NO priests DON'Tknow what to do with a deacon, since they themselves were only deacons for a few months before priestly ordination. So the deacon is basically just an altar server on Sundays. Susan from the parish council carries out all the hospital/long-term care ministries, admin tasks, etc. while the deacon is not assigned anything.

Overall, not a fan of permanent deacons, especially if the man is married. I know that many defenders of it will say "No, no, it's not going to lead to married priests! Pshaw!" But a married man has obligations to his family, however big or small it may be. That comes first.
Bleh, typo.
Title: Re: Permanent deacons?
Post by: dolores on April 16, 2021, 09:41:48 AM
The idea of remaining a deacon, and not being ordained to the priesthood, is not objectionable.  Although not common in the past, it did occur, with St. Francis of Assisi being a prime example.

The real objection to the modern permanent diaconate is not the permanent nature of it, but rather the fact that married men are ordained deacons, and, in many cases, it is a sort of "part time" ministry, given that the married deacon will have a family to support and, presumably, a full time job.
Title: Re: Permanent deacons?
Post by: King Wenceslas on April 26, 2021, 07:46:02 PM

It is nothing more than a New Church gig. Before October 1958, it didn't exist. Just ignore them. They wanted marriage more than the priesthood when they were younger. Now they want to play priest when they are older.
Title: Re: Permanent deacons?
Post by: lauermar on May 02, 2021, 05:02:57 PM
Excuse me, I know ordained deacons can baptize and marry a couple sacramenally. But non-Catholics cannot marry themselves without legal authority being present (a boat captain,  pastor, judge, or a government leader) and two witnesses. A layman cannot baptize unless it is an emergency.