Conversion, Grace, Faith, and God Alone

Started by Insanis, June 21, 2021, 03:15:37 PM

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Miriam_M

Quote from: mikemac on June 21, 2021, 07:48:52 PM
Quote from: james03 on June 21, 2021, 07:38:19 PM
QuoteYou didn't convert anyone.
My instruction of the ignorant was AN efficient cause, and is truly meritorious.  I phrased it as "partial credit" when replying to Ex Cathedra.

Yes it was meritorious and good for you in cooperating with the Divine Will.  That's the commission given to the whole Church, but you didn't convert them.  We can do our part but it's God that draws them.

This is true, but God uses willing instruments/cooperators in that process, as an aspect of His Will and generosity.  It's a privilege to partake, just as it is to partake of creation by procreating within marriage.

St.Justin

"Christ has no body now but yours. No hands, no feet on earth but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses all the world. Yours are the hands, yours are the feet, yours are the eyes, you are his body. Christ has no body now on earth but yours."

? Teresa of Avila
There is no question about God's Grace.
We can reject God's grace. We can make it easier for people to accept God's Grace. Our knowledge of God makes it easier to accept His Grace
We were created to know, love and serve God.

There is more to Dogma than just the words. You have to know the basis of the Dogma

Xavier

Our Lord told His Apostles to go convert the nations to the Faith. Conversions are from God alone, because Grace is from God alone, and conversions are impossible without Grace. But that doesn't mean we are to do nothing. We are to pray, we are to sacrifice, we are to work, we are to evangelize - St. Paul uses the analogy of "I have planted, Apollo watered, but God gave the increase." (1 Cor 3:6) - and then God will bless those efforts with a conversion and reward one's attempts to work for the salvation of souls.

We should avoid being nasty to others, especially other Catholics. Even to non-Catholics, as St. Peter reminds us, we should invite them to Christ with gentleness and respect. Christians should be marked by kindness and charity always, so that, as Our Lord said, the world will know, we are His Disciples, by the Love we have for one another. May we all here on this forum always bear that Word of His in our mind.

God Bless.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

james03

No, "God alone" does not convert people in most cases.  That is Calvinist heresy.  It is a shame that posters were scandalized by Insanis's sloppy writing.

God is the First Cause of Conversion.

God's actual graces are the necessary efficient causes of conversion.

Other's are also efficient causes of conversion, though it is according to Divine Providence whom He uses.  However the work of conversion is truly meritorious due to the converter freely cooperating with God's Grace, and is a spiritual work of mercy.

Consider the Mikemac's bible verse was the basis for a book written by a Calvinist:
https://www.amazon.com/Drawn-Father-James-R-White/dp/0967084008

No, God drawing people is not the end of the story.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

mikemac

Quote from: Miriam_M on June 21, 2021, 08:43:58 PM
Quote from: mikemac on June 21, 2021, 07:48:52 PM
Quote from: james03 on June 21, 2021, 07:38:19 PM
QuoteYou didn't convert anyone.
My instruction of the ignorant was AN efficient cause, and is truly meritorious.  I phrased it as "partial credit" when replying to Ex Cathedra.

Yes it was meritorious and good for you in cooperating with the Divine Will.  That's the commission given to the whole Church, but you didn't convert them.  We can do our part but it's God that draws them.

This is true, but God uses willing instruments/cooperators in that process, as an aspect of His Will and generosity.  It's a privilege to partake, just as it is to partake of creation by procreating within marriage.

Yeah it is meritorious as long as pride does not get in the way.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is "despair, overcome."
Source

Miriam_M

Quote from: mikemac on June 23, 2021, 03:41:23 PM
Quote from: Miriam_M on June 21, 2021, 08:43:58 PM
Quote from: mikemac on June 21, 2021, 07:48:52 PM
Quote from: james03 on June 21, 2021, 07:38:19 PM
QuoteYou didn't convert anyone.
My instruction of the ignorant was AN efficient cause, and is truly meritorious.  I phrased it as "partial credit" when replying to Ex Cathedra.

Yes it was meritorious and good for you in cooperating with the Divine Will.  That's the commission given to the whole Church, but you didn't convert them.  We can do our part but it's God that draws them.

This is true, but God uses willing instruments/cooperators in that process, as an aspect of His Will and generosity.  It's a privilege to partake, just as it is to partake of creation by procreating within marriage.

Yeah it is meritorious as long as pride does not get in the way.

I think the poster who was discussing "merit" was not I but James.  My point was more about the privilege of a cooperating role in the divine plan. It's a grace.

james03

QuoteIt's a grace.

Yes.  Sungenis coined the term "gracious merit" as a synonym for congruent merit.  All of your good works are due to Actual Graces and are pleasing to God due to Sanctifying Grace.  However your cooperation is free, which is why Trent says such acts are "truly meritorious".  God doesn't owe you for it (condign merit), but is actually doing you a favor.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Xavier

"God Alone" is a Montfortian axiom.

"God Alone was the motto and the title of the collected writings of Saint Louis de Montfort, one of the leading figures in the French school of spirituality and Roman Catholic Mariology.

Montfort wrote "God Alone" on all his correspondences and at the end of most of his hymns.[1] The motto "God Alone" appears throughout his writings, almost as a refrain.[1]

The motto and the message of the book summed up Montfortian spirituality in the formula, "To God Alone, by Christ's Wisdom, in the Spirit, in communion with Mary, for the reign of God."

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Alone
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

james03

Quote"God Alone was the motto and the title of the collected writings of Saint Louis de Montfort, one of the leading figures in the French school of spirituality and Roman Catholic Mariology.

It's a beautiful motto.  My interpretation is he is referring to where our focus should be.  I agree.

This has nothing to do with soteriology.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Jayne

Quote from: Xavier on June 24, 2021, 04:48:36 AM
"God Alone" is a Montfortian axiom.

"God Alone was the motto and the title of the collected writings of Saint Louis de Montfort, one of the leading figures in the French school of spirituality and Roman Catholic Mariology.

Montfort wrote "God Alone" on all his correspondences and at the end of most of his hymns.[1] The motto "God Alone" appears throughout his writings, almost as a refrain.[1]

The motto and the message of the book summed up Montfortian spirituality in the formula, "To God Alone, by Christ's Wisdom, in the Spirit, in communion with Mary, for the reign of God."

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Alone

Excellent point.  I think whether people focus on "God Alone" or on human cooperation with God depends on things like spirituality and temperament.  Those who struggle with pride will probably benefit more from a "God Alone" approach, while those who are tempted to inaction will probably benefit more from a focus on the role of human cooperation.  Personally, I draw on Montfortian spirituality and could never talk about taking partial credit for conversions.
Still, both are true enough when understood in the correct sense.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

james03

QuoteStill, both are true enough when understood in the correct sense.

And it is true that engaging in the Spiritual Works of Mercy is truly meritorious.  Therefore Ex Cathedra's cruel comments were both cruel and based on error.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

mikemac

Quote from: Xavier on June 24, 2021, 04:48:36 AM
"God Alone" is a Montfortian axiom.

"God Alone was the motto and the title of the collected writings of Saint Louis de Montfort, one of the leading figures in the French school of spirituality and Roman Catholic Mariology.

Montfort wrote "God Alone" on all his correspondences and at the end of most of his hymns.[1] The motto "God Alone" appears throughout his writings, almost as a refrain.[1]

The motto and the message of the book summed up Montfortian spirituality in the formula, "To God Alone, by Christ's Wisdom, in the Spirit, in communion with Mary, for the reign of God."

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Alone

In his letters to his friends Saint Louis de Montfort often wrote to pray for Wisdom.  Meaning Christ's Wisdom.  Or even meaning Christ Himself, you know because Wisdom is Christ. 
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is "despair, overcome."
Source