Cell lines from aborted babies

[tradical]

Deliver via caesarian section?

I would like to see the proof of that one because it creates a multi week recovery period, breaks a number of laws and  defeats the purpose of the abortion.

So does selling murdered baby organs to private companies break many laws but hey ho, they got away with it.  As for recovery, we know that's only for the mother and the abortion is still completed with a dead baby at the end of it no matter how it's done.

Those are two different issues.

The performance of a cesarean section to deliver a baby alive is major surgery and to then kill is post birth is illegal and would be prosecuted.

The 'idea' of an abortion is to murder the baby prior to birth to extract the body from the uterus without the need for a multi-day stay at the clinic or hospital.  A clinic is not equipped for multi-day stays and stays at a hospital costs lots of money.  For the insurers it is a question of cost control. 

Legally, if they performed a cesarean section, then they are vulnerable to the existing statutes in most developed countries.

So on both count the claim doesn't add up.

[diaduit]

Deliver via caesarian section?

I would like to see the proof of that one because it creates a multi week recovery period, breaks a number of laws and  defeats the purpose of the abortion.

So does selling murdered baby organs to private companies break many laws but hey ho, they got away with it.  As for recovery, we know that's only for the mother and the abortion is still completed with a dead baby at the end of it no matter how it's done.

Those are two different issues.

The performance of a cesarean section to deliver a baby alive is major surgery and to then kill is post birth is illegal and would be prosecuted.

The 'idea' of an abortion is to murder the baby prior to birth to extract the body from the uterus without the need for a multi-day stay at the clinic or hospital.  A clinic is not equipped for multi-day stays and stays at a hospital costs lots of money.  For the insurers it is a question of cost control. 

Legally, if they performed a cesarean section, then they are vulnerable to the existing statutes in most developed countries.

So on both count the claim doesn't add up.

If they can break one serious law re selling organs then it is nothing to them to break another serious law regards baby being born alive.  So it does add up. These people are monsters and nothing like a law gets in their way.

[lauermar]

Fetal cell testing is rapidly replacing animal testing in many industries involving chemicals, household products, cosmetics, toiletries, food preservatives, fertilizer, taste enhancers, pesticides for crops, vaccines given to animals, etc. This is due to pressure from PETA. I've said it before and I'll say it again. To end testing on fetuses, it is necessary to go after PETA and restore animal safety testing. Unfortunately many pro-lifers don't like animal testing either and side with PETA. So the use of fetal cells continues.

[TradGranny]

Fetal cell testing is rapidly replacing animal testing in many industries involving chemicals, household products, cosmetics, toiletries, food preservatives, fertilizer, taste enhancers, pesticides for crops, vaccines given to animals, etc. This is due to pressure from PETA. I've said it before and I'll say it again. To end testing on fetuses, it is necessary to go after PETA and restore animal safety testing. Unfortunately many pro-lifers don't like animal testing either and side with PETA. So the use of fetal cells continues.

You have made this unfounded claim previously without providing any sources for your straw man argument.

[tradical]

Deliver via caesarian section?

I would like to see the proof of that one because it creates a multi week recovery period, breaks a number of laws and  defeats the purpose of the abortion.

So does selling murdered baby organs to private companies break many laws but hey ho, they got away with it.  As for recovery, we know that's only for the mother and the abortion is still completed with a dead baby at the end of it no matter how it's done.

Those are two different issues.

The performance of a cesarean section to deliver a baby alive is major surgery and to then kill is post birth is illegal and would be prosecuted.

The 'idea' of an abortion is to murder the baby prior to birth to extract the body from the uterus without the need for a multi-day stay at the clinic or hospital.  A clinic is not equipped for multi-day stays and stays at a hospital costs lots of money.  For the insurers it is a question of cost control. 

Legally, if they performed a cesarean section, then they are vulnerable to the existing statutes in most developed countries.

So on both count the claim doesn't add up.

If they can break one serious law re selling organs then it is nothing to them to break another serious law regards baby being born alive.  So it does add up. These people are monsters and nothing like a law gets in their way.

Murder is a whole different level.

So what is behind your allegations? Has anyone seen them do a caesarean section and then murder the babdy??? 

It is necessary to understand how the system works in order to assess the claims to the contrary.  Pulling out the 'monsters' trope doesn't make it right, it just makes you look foolish.

So a challenge: Have any of the investigations found that the abortionists perform a caesarean  section?  If you can find one, then you have something to support your allegations.  Without it, making accusations about the people doesn't prove your position.

[diaduit]

For the love of God Tradical, abortionists are for the most part obstetricians who ARE trained to perform a c section.  In our country abortions are done in hospitals.....with theatres!!

Warning, graphic.
Partial birth abortions are typically done when the baby is too developed and in the last trimester.  The baby is born feet first and the head remains in the womb, the abortionist will then cut into the base of the neck and insert a tube and suck the brains out to allow the skull to crush. AND YOU WONDER IF THEY ARE ABLE TO DO A C SECTION?

I'm not looking foolish at all but I'll go out on a limb here and ask did you get the vaccine?  if you did, does this thread make you feel uncomfortable? can't hide the truth of how foetal cell lines are made.

How can Catholics believe that Big Pharma who are as corrupt as any politician if not more, finished sourcing foetal cell lines in 70's is very naïve.  The end product are the experiments we do know about , what about the thousands of other experiments that we don't know about that came to nothing.  How many microsoft windows version were done before they launched the first one! Medical researchers can work on so many projects for years before they get that one big break and a successful outcome.

[tradical]

For the love of God Tradical, abortionists are for the most part obstetricians who ARE trained to perform a c section.  In our country abortions are done in hospitals.....with theatres!!

Warning, graphic.
Partial birth abortions are typically done when the baby is too developed and in the last trimester.  The baby is born feet first and the head remains in the womb, the abortionist will then cut into the base of the neck and insert a tube and suck the brains out to allow the skull to crush. AND YOU WONDER IF THEY ARE ABLE TO DO A C SECTION?

I'm not looking foolish at all but I'll go out on a limb here and ask did you get the vaccine?  if you did, does this thread make you feel uncomfortable? can't hide the truth of how foetal cell lines are made.

How can Catholics believe that Big Pharma who are as corrupt as any politician if not more, finished sourcing foetal cell lines in 70's is very naïve.  The end product are the experiments we do know about , what about the thousands of other experiments that we don't know about that came to nothing.  How many microsoft windows version were done before they launched the first one! Medical researchers can work on so many projects for years before they get that one big break and a successful outcome.

Hi Diaduit,

It seems like this means a great deal to you and that is good.

I probably sound like a ignorant Catholic or ever worse and liberal Catholic.

That said, I am a Traditional Catholic who is hyper-allergic to both conspiracy theories and FUD ( https://tradicat.blogspot.com/2013/10/fear-uncertainty-doubt-fud.html)

I deal with emotionally charge topics with a critical thinking perspective in order to have a better perspective on the reality.

Reading your reply I conclude that you don't have any proof that they are doing c-sections in order to perform an abortion through vivisection.

Instead you refer to partial birth abortion - feed first etc. 

My family was involved in the early days of the pro-life movement and there are a spectrum of ways in which a baby will be murdered.   Simply put, to cut open the mother is, for an abortionist, neither cost effective, nor aligned with their primary goals - to 'terminate' the pregnancy with as little inconvenience as possible.

I get that you believe that it could be done, and that is true, but it doesn't mean that it has been done for the goals of harvesting the organs. 

I've read the discussion on how the HEK-293 cells were obtained and the method you proposed simply isn't in document.

Regarding "How can Catholics believe that Big Pharma who are as corrupt as any politician if not more, finished sourcing foetal cell lines in 70's is very naïve. "

Let's separate knowledge from belief ...
Know:
- body parts of murdered babies have been and are still being sold for research.
- two babies are morally liked to some of the COVID-19 vaccines. The cells lines are HEK-293 and PER.C6.
- the moral link between these two murders is either through the use of the cell lines for production or through some efficacy testing of the vaccine.
- the degree of cooperation with evil is remote and for those where the tainted cell lines were only used for testing - even more so.
- it is morally licit to receive even morally tainted vaccines for a grave reason.
- the grave reason is not only limited to death / health but extends to including the ability to earn a livelihood.
- Catholics have obligations regarding in the reception of a tainted vaccines.  This includes selecting the least tainted vaccine if possible
- The COVID-19 pandemic is real and follows the lethality spectrum expected in such diseases (being potentially lethal to all, but more lethal for the immuno-compromised). I have spoken with caregivers who have had direct contact with COVID-19 patients.  If you don't believe this is real, then you should seek out an ICU nurse and talk with them.
- The COVID-19 pandemic is following the life cycle pattern of the 1918 influenza pandemic.
- Notably, the latest variants are more adapted to the <40y cohort

Please see my study on making moral vaccine decisions: http://tradicat.blogspot.com/search/label/Series%20-%20Making%20Moral%20Vaccine%20Decisions

Belief
- that there is a moral link between all abortions and the vaccines
- that all employees of the pharmaceutical companies are culpable
- that abortionists are performing c-sections followed by vivisections in order to obtain more viable samples for the sale to pharamceutical companies for research and development.
- that inoculation with a morally tainted vaccine is culpable participation in the historical, present and future murders of babies

My conclusions
1. Following pre-conciliar moral theology, there is only a moral link to the original murders and the vaccine in which the vaccines are used.
2. The COVID-19 pandemic presents a generalized threat to the population. Meaning old and young alike are at risk of either death or long-term health affects.
3. The cooperation in evil is with the original murder where the tainted cells are used.
4. The degree of cooperation is remote.
5. So it is licit to be inoculated with a tainted vaccine with the usual conditions and preference for the least tainted option.

Since you asked:
a. I have received both shots of the moderna vaccine.
b. I am not troubled by the FUD being disseminated about the morality of my decision because I have studied the issue thoroughly over several months and concluded that both Rome and the SSPX positions are aligned with pre-conciliar teaching and correct.


P^3

[diaduit]

For the love of God Tradical, abortionists are for the most part obstetricians who ARE trained to perform a c section.  In our country abortions are done in hospitals.....with theatres!!

Warning, graphic.
Partial birth abortions are typically done when the baby is too developed and in the last trimester.  The baby is born feet first and the head remains in the womb, the abortionist will then cut into the base of the neck and insert a tube and suck the brains out to allow the skull to crush. AND YOU WONDER IF THEY ARE ABLE TO DO A C SECTION?

I'm not looking foolish at all but I'll go out on a limb here and ask did you get the vaccine?  if you did, does this thread make you feel uncomfortable? can't hide the truth of how foetal cell lines are made.

How can Catholics believe that Big Pharma who are as corrupt as any politician if not more, finished sourcing foetal cell lines in 70's is very naïve.  The end product are the experiments we do know about , what about the thousands of other experiments that we don't know about that came to nothing.  How many microsoft windows version were done before they launched the first one! Medical researchers can work on so many projects for years before they get that one big break and a successful outcome.

Hi Diaduit,

It seems like this means a great deal to you and that is good.

I probably sound like a ignorant Catholic or ever worse and liberal Catholic.

That said, I am a Traditional Catholic who is hyper-allergic to both conspiracy theories and FUD ( https://tradicat.blogspot.com/2013/10/fear-uncertainty-doubt-fud.html)

I deal with emotionally charge topics with a critical thinking perspective in order to have a better perspective on the reality.

Reading your reply I conclude that you don't have any proof that they are doing c-sections in order to perform an abortion through vivisection.

Instead you refer to partial birth abortion - feed first etc. 

My family was involved in the early days of the pro-life movement and there are a spectrum of ways in which a baby will be murdered.   Simply put, to cut open the mother is, for an abortionist, neither cost effective, nor aligned with their primary goals - to 'terminate' the pregnancy with as little inconvenience as possible.

I get that you believe that it could be done, and that is true, but it doesn't mean that it has been done for the goals of harvesting the organs. 

I've read the discussion on how the HEK-293 cells were obtained and the method you proposed simply isn't in document.

Regarding "How can Catholics believe that Big Pharma who are as corrupt as any politician if not more, finished sourcing foetal cell lines in 70's is very naïve. "

Let's separate knowledge from belief ...
Know:
- body parts of murdered babies have been and are still being sold for research.
- two babies are morally liked to some of the COVID-19 vaccines. The cells lines are HEK-293 and PER.C6.
- the moral link between these two murders is either through the use of the cell lines for production or through some efficacy testing of the vaccine.
- the degree of cooperation with evil is remote and for those where the tainted cell lines were only used for testing - even more so.
- it is morally licit to receive even morally tainted vaccines for a grave reason.
- the grave reason is not only limited to death / health but extends to including the ability to earn a livelihood.
- Catholics have obligations regarding in the reception of a tainted vaccines.  This includes selecting the least tainted vaccine if possible
- The COVID-19 pandemic is real and follows the lethality spectrum expected in such diseases (being potentially lethal to all, but more lethal for the immuno-compromised). I have spoken with caregivers who have had direct contact with COVID-19 patients.  If you don't believe this is real, then you should seek out an ICU nurse and talk with them.
- The COVID-19 pandemic is following the life cycle pattern of the 1918 influenza pandemic.
- Notably, the latest variants are more adapted to the <40y cohort

Please see my study on making moral vaccine decisions: http://tradicat.blogspot.com/search/label/Series%20-%20Making%20Moral%20Vaccine%20Decisions

Belief
- that there is a moral link between all abortions and the vaccines
- that all employees of the pharmaceutical companies are culpable
- that abortionists are performing c-sections followed by vivisections in order to obtain more viable samples for the sale to pharamceutical companies for research and development.
- that inoculation with a morally tainted vaccine is culpable participation in the historical, present and future murders of babies

My conclusions
1. Following pre-conciliar moral theology, there is only a moral link to the original murders and the vaccine in which the vaccines are used.
2. The COVID-19 pandemic presents a generalized threat to the population. Meaning old and young alike are at risk of either death or long-term health affects.
3. The cooperation in evil is with the original murder where the tainted cells are used.
4. The degree of cooperation is remote.
5. So it is licit to be inoculated with a tainted vaccine with the usual conditions and preference for the least tainted option.

Since you asked:
a. I have received both shots of the moderna vaccine.
b. I am not troubled by the FUD being disseminated about the morality of my decision because I have studied the issue thoroughly over several months and concluded that both Rome and the SSPX positions are aligned with pre-conciliar teaching and correct.


P^3

Have you missed Trad Grannys links on Pamela Acker and how do you get a baby intact and straight to a freezer unless you do a c section. 

As I suspected, you took the jab.  This thread makes you uncomfortable, nice try in categorising me subtly as a zealous conspiracy theorist when in fact I am just blunt. 

Why did you take the vaccine?

[tradical]

Have you missed Trad Grannys links on Pamela Acker and how do you get a baby intact and straight to a freezer unless you do a c section. 

As I suspected, you took the jab.  This thread makes you uncomfortable, nice try in categorising me subtly as a zealous conspiracy theorist when in fact I am just blunt. 

Why did you take the vaccine?

Ok - so you have no proof of c-sections being done to get a baby out intact.  Thanks for confirming that bit.

A. Are you able to read minds?  Do you have the give of reading hearts?  I am not uncomfortable with this thread at all. I've done the research and am satisfied with the result.
B. I wasn't trying to categorize you as a 'zealous conspiracy theorist' - you are correct you are blunt - in that you use blunt arguments that don't stand up.  Find me proof that I am wrong and provide a link.  I am not going to waste any time doing the work for you.
C. How do you get a baby out in one piece?  You need to do more research on that matter.  I can't believe I have to explain this ... there's the normal path for a baby to exit the womb.  I really can't believe I had to point that out.

Next regarding the use of c-section, after a 10 second search and I found this article : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterotomy_abortion

Here's what's in the summary:

In 2016, this method made up less than 0.01% of all abortions in the United States, with the CDC reporting only 51 having occurred due to the invasive and complex nature of the procedure, and the availability of much simpler and safer methods.[2]

There are other ways that they can get what they need out of the womb and the body doesn't have to be in one piece.

D. Why did I take the vaccine??? Seriously, why do you think I would get innoculated against a disease that landed someone I know in a hospital, intubated, with a machine breathing for them for 3 weeks in a medially induced coma? A disease the caused the death of 7 people in my town?  As my American friends would say: Why did I get the vaccine?  Duh - so I don't reduce the risk of getting COVID-19!

[diaduit]

Before we go on in circles, can you clarify what party of c-section confuses you?  a live baby being removed from the womb via c- section is a normal procedure so unless we've crossed wires I don't understand why you are confused about it?

[tradical]

Before we go on in circles, can you clarify what party of c-section confuses you?  a live baby being removed from the womb via c- section is a normal procedure so unless we've crossed wires I don't understand why you are confused about it?

Yep - I thought that I would have to explain.

Body of dead baby pulled through the birth canal after induced labour to make this possible.

Find me proof that a live baby was taken out by c-section and then killed as per Pam Akers.

[Melkor]

Before we go on in circles, can you clarify what party of c-section confuses you?  a live baby being removed from the womb via c- section is a normal procedure so unless we've crossed wires I don't understand why you are confused about it?

Yep - I thought that I would have to explain.

Body of dead baby pulled through the birth canal after induced labour to make this possible.

Find me proof that a live baby was taken out by c-section and then killed as per Pam Akers.

Find me proof that it wasn't.

[tradical]

Before we go on in circles, can you clarify what party of c-section confuses you?  a live baby being removed from the womb via c- section is a normal procedure so unless we've crossed wires I don't understand why you are confused about it?

Yep - I thought that I would have to explain.

Body of dead baby pulled through the birth canal after induced labour to make this possible.

Find me proof that a live baby was taken out by c-section and then killed as per Pam Akers.

Find me proof that it wasn't.

Are you seriously trying to have me look for proof for a non-existant event that would leave no proof?

[matt]

Here is one Pamela Acker article: https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/scientific-truths-logical-fallacies-and-acquiescence-to-evil-a-reply-to-emmanuele-barbieri
Miss Acker explains that there is a big problem with the amount of cells from aborted babies in  vaccines:

    The evidence for c-section abortions comes primarily from video clips shot by David Daleiden; in reality, it comes from the scientific literature [1, 2, 3], specifically several research papers describing the development of polio vaccines.

    Experimentation on fetal tissue was forbidden prior to the legalization of abortion; in reality, such experimentation was done as early as the 1930s [1] and there were even international suppliers of aborted fetal tissue (specifically the Karolinska Institute) throughout the 1950-70s that continue to supply aborted fetal tissue for research up to the present day.

    No experimentation on fetal tissue was done with the intention of producing vaccines; in reality, the development of the polio vaccine fueled research into aborted fetal cell lines [1, 2, 3], and the rubella vaccine [4] was produced using virus obtained from aborted fetuses instead of simply using a nasal swab from an infected child (as was done in Japan). There is indeed a long history of complicity between vaccines and abortion.

    The amount of residual fetal DNA in vaccines is negligible, according to three hypothetical statistical studies (with the same primary author); in reality, experimental data shows that the amount and size of fetal DNA present in vaccines poses a real problem, and can be up to 200 times the safety limit established by the World Health Organization.[5]

One of the things Miss Acker claims is that HEK-293 involved hundreds of abortions not just one. But this would have meant hundreds of abortions in the Netherlands when it was still illegal. This doesn't really add up, it means there would had to existed, in effect, an underground abortion industry that no one knew about.

[tradical]

Here is one Pamela Acker article: https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/scientific-truths-logical-fallacies-and-acquiescence-to-evil-a-reply-to-emmanuele-barbieri
Miss Acker explains that there is a big problem with the amount of cells from aborted babies in  vaccines:

    The evidence for c-section abortions comes primarily from video clips shot by David Daleiden; in reality, it comes from the scientific literature [1, 2, 3], specifically several research papers describing the development of polio vaccines.

    Experimentation on fetal tissue was forbidden prior to the legalization of abortion; in reality, such experimentation was done as early as the 1930s [1] and there were even international suppliers of aborted fetal tissue (specifically the Karolinska Institute) throughout the 1950-70s that continue to supply aborted fetal tissue for research up to the present day.

    No experimentation on fetal tissue was done with the intention of producing vaccines; in reality, the development of the polio vaccine fueled research into aborted fetal cell lines [1, 2, 3], and the rubella vaccine [4] was produced using virus obtained from aborted fetuses instead of simply using a nasal swab from an infected child (as was done in Japan). There is indeed a long history of complicity between vaccines and abortion.

    The amount of residual fetal DNA in vaccines is negligible, according to three hypothetical statistical studies (with the same primary author); in reality, experimental data shows that the amount and size of fetal DNA present in vaccines poses a real problem, and can be up to 200 times the safety limit established by the World Health Organization.[5]

One of the things Miss Acker claims is that HEK-293 involved hundreds of abortions not just one. But this would have meant hundreds of abortions in the Netherlands when it was still illegal. This doesn't really add up, it means there would had to existed, in effect, an underground abortion industry that no one knew about.

Thanks Matt...

Miss Acker's claim is a part-truth.

First: What is known is that the scientist numbered his experiments. However, he wasn't conducting experiments with just human cells, he was also using animal cells. In addition, cells from one baby could have been used for multiple experiments. So to make the assertion that hundreds of babies died to create HEK-293 is not provable.

Second: What is absolutely true is that there is a moral link between the murder of one baby for each the two immortal cell-lines used to make or test some of the COVID-19 vaccines.