Morality of Veganism and Vegetarianism?

[coffeeandcigarette]

So scientifically speaking, vegans and even vegetarians(though less so) are usually undernourished, as their diet excludes many essential sources of protein.

This is really not true at all. Vegetarians have many sources of very good protein at their disposal. Vegans have beans, seeds, veg, and yeast. Protein is essential, animal protein is not essential. They are not missing anything "essential."

[coffeeandcigarette]

to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful...

I don't think this means what you are implying it means. Adam and Eve didn't eat meat until after the fall. How could it have been "created" to be consumed? I think there is something lost in translation here. There are many times, especially in older English, when "meat" or "meats" is used and doesn't mean animal flesh.

[mikemac]

to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful...

I don't think this means what you are implying it means. Adam and Eve didn't eat meat until after the fall. How could it have been "created" to be consumed? I think there is something lost in translation here. There are many times, especially in older English, when "meat" or "meats" is used and doesn't mean animal flesh.

I suppose it could be questionable when you just analyze that one line.  But completely nothing is lost in translation when you read the whole paragraph though.

1Timothy 4
[1] Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils, [2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared, [3] Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth. [4] For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be rejected that is received with thanksgiving: [5] For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

[mikemac]

Veganism is an ideology. 

Agreed.  Would IMO make veganism sinful since it teaches falsely that it is immoral to eat animals.  It would be a fiorm of scrupulosity.  If I'm not mistaken Hinduism preaches veganism.

My biggest concern medically is with the risk of neurological damage from severe vitamin B12 deficiency, in particular from never eating red meat.  That can suddenly sneak up on some people with irreversible brain and spinal cord lesions resulting in severe nerve pain in the limbs and even in some cases paralysis or death.  Which is why I recommend vegetarians themselves to take sublingual vitamin B12 daily, which I do.

I was reading that you can get insomnia from eating a vegetarian diet.  If I can remember correctly I think it also had to do with the lack of vitamin B12.

[drummerboy]

I think Philip used the word "reverence" in the sense you mean.  Not as an object of religious veneration, but one of awe and respect as coming from the Creator. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reverence  (definition #1)

The second to last day of this last holiday antlerless deer season I was sitting my deer blind in the bitter cold about 7:30 am.  A big buck came across the field to feed on the corn not 30 meters from me.  I could have shot him, but it would have been illegal, negatively affecting the deer population.  But I'll never forget it.  He and I looked at each other for over a minute, me covered in camo from head to foot.   Not taking its life have me in that moment a definite reverence—ie awe and respect—for this graceful creature of God.

  I had a similar experience my last day of deer season.  A doe and her two fawns were walking along the edge of the field I was sitting on, grazing right towards me in the stand.  You could not ask for a better shot, but I waited till I had a better shot anyway.  Down deep I was deciding whether to take the doe and let the two fawns live on for the  next season, or skip the doe so she could raise more fawns.  But I had enough deer for the meat I needed from other hunters, and really didn't want to shoot any of them despite getting nothing that season.  It just would have been pointless; they ran off into the woods and hopefully survive the winter till we meet again next season.

[christulsa]

I think Philip used the word "reverence" in the sense you mean.  Not as an object of religious veneration, but one of awe and respect as coming from the Creator. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reverence  (definition #1)

The second to last day of this last holiday antlerless deer season I was sitting my deer blind in the bitter cold about 7:30 am.  A big buck came across the field to feed on the corn not 30 meters from me.  I could have shot him, but it would have been illegal, negatively affecting the deer population.  But I'll never forget it.  He and I looked at each other for over a minute, me covered in camo from head to foot.   Not taking its life have me in that moment a definite reverence—ie awe and respect—for this graceful creature of God.

  I had a similar experience my last day of deer season.  A doe and her two fawns were walking along the edge of the field I was sitting on, grazing right towards me in the stand.  You could not ask for a better shot, but I waited till I had a better shot anyway.  Down deep I was deciding whether to take the doe and let the two fawns live on for the  next season, or skip the doe so she could raise more fawns.  But I had enough deer for the meat I needed from other hunters, and really didn't want to shoot any of them despite getting nothing that season.  It just would have been pointless; they ran off into the woods and hopefully survive the winter till we meet again next season.

Sounds like it was a sublime moment.  On the first day of deer season I shot at a doe that skipped away like I didn't hit it, jumped a private fence, and I never saw it again.  Thought for a moment about jumping the fence and trespassing to trail it, glad I didn't, I saw across the field about 200 meters away hunter orange up in a tree, probably the land owner.  In hindsight, I could have hiked back to my car across the public land and taken the time to go ask him to go on his land.  Learning moment.  Later a game warden advised to use onX app to get landowner's contact info.  I prefer for the deer's sake to think it got away unscathed. Later that day I also saw a doe and two fawns and had the same thought you had, deciding to let them go thinking I'd get one eventually that season (which I didn't lol).   Better luck next year for us.

[lauermar]

Vegans are pagan animal worshippers. They vote in support for abortion because the love animals and can't stand people. I often call them out on their limited respect for human life.

Ascetics like St. John Vianney sacrifice for God not love of animals.

[Jayne]

The Vegan Society has this definition on their website:

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

These are not simply people who have made a mistake about what is involved in healthy eating.  They have adopted a "philosophy and way of living" that is fundamentally opposed to Catholicism.  It is, in effect, a false religion.

While there is a long history of Christian aesthetic practices that involve abstaining from animal products, these practices never assume that there is anything essentially wrong with eating meat, etc.  Rather, one is giving up a good for the love of God.  I make a point to use the terms "fasting" and "abstention" when talking about Christian practices and reserve "vegan" for this recent neo-pagan movement.

[Melkor]

Bingo.

[Philip G.]

The Vegan Society has this definition on their website:

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

These are not simply people who have made a mistake about what is involved in healthy eating.  They have adopted a "philosophy and way of living" that is fundamentally opposed to Catholicism.  It is, in effect, a false religion.

While there is a long history of Christian aesthetic practices that involve abstaining from animal products, these practices never assume that there is anything essentially wrong with eating meat, etc.  Rather, one is giving up a good for the love of God.  I make a point to use the terms "fasting" and "abstention" when talking about Christian practices and reserve "vegan" for this recent neo-pagan movement.

The "what" of that definition, is not fundamentally opposed to Catholicism.  It is the "why" of that definition, in my opinion, which is not defined by them, that is in opposition.  What sacrament requires the use of an animal product?  I cannot think of any. 

[lauermar]

God gave us animals to master and use as a resource in Genesis. And not just for man. God created the entire food chain and saw that it was good.

There is such a thing as humane hunting. The Catholic church has St. Hubertus, patron saint of hunters. He lived in the 8th century. He was visited by the Holy Spirit and given guidelines. To this day, those guidelines are followed by secular hunting groups. My son-in-law belongs to one and he confirmed the rules are still in place. See link below. Non-believers consider it legend. As a believer I view it as truth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubertus#:~:text=Hubertus%20or%20Hubert%20(%20c.,mathematicians%2C%20opticians%2C%20and%20metalworkers.

[Philip G.]

The Vegan Society has this definition on their website:

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

These are not simply people who have made a mistake about what is involved in healthy eating.  They have adopted a "philosophy and way of living" that is fundamentally opposed to Catholicism.  It is, in effect, a false religion.

While there is a long history of Christian aesthetic practices that involve abstaining from animal products, these practices never assume that there is anything essentially wrong with eating meat, etc.  Rather, one is giving up a good for the love of God.  I make a point to use the terms "fasting" and "abstention" when talking about Christian practices and reserve "vegan" for this recent neo-pagan movement.

The "what" of that definition, is not fundamentally opposed to Catholicism.  It is the "why" of that definition, in my opinion, which is not defined by them, that is in opposition.  What sacrament requires the use of an animal product?  I cannot think of any.

Upon closer inspection, I think that by the fact that they distinguish between exploitation, and cruelty, they are saying that even a Godly we might say exploitation of animals is forbidden.  And, that of course is not compatible with Christianity.  However, I think catholics would agree that cruelty to animals is a sin. 

I am trying to think of a loophole to their definition.  I remember on their website they had goat in a barn with its head out the window all happy with a human in the picture.  That seems to send a message that there is such a thing for them as permissible exploitation.  But, what, in their idea of a perfect world, is it?   I don't think that milking an animal for food is exploitation.  I think killing an animal for its meat would be considered by them full stop exploitation.  But, if an animal dies, and you skin it for its fur, that doesn't seem like exploitation.   And, if one of your animals dies, and you skin the animal, but let the dogs or hogs eat the flesh, is that exploitation?  Who knows.  Their definition does in fact stink.  They could live the lifestyle they want to live solely on the use of the word cruelty, because all the modern livestock factories are cruel to animals.  That is enough reasoning in itself.  They are definitely trying to satisfy the religious ideologue with the use of the term exploitation. 

[OzarkCatholic]

My spouse is vegetarian, and has been since she was four. At that age she developed a dislike for flesh that lasted weeks, and her parents went to a library to find out how to provide for a vegetarian all the nutrients needed.

Today she likens flesh eating to attempting to eat a rock. It does not register as food to her. I eat meat, my sons eat meat. One is mostly vegetarian except for occasional pork or chicken, the other will eat anything. At best, it's lowered our food bill, encouraged more intentional eating, and helped us develop empathy for guest's dietary restrictions or needswhen hosting or choosing restaurants, banquet halls, etc. I've seen health benefits in limiting meat consumption and in intentional meat consumption. Whereas I used to eat cheap, highly processed foods with meat at most meals, now the combination of high vegetable, high fiber, mostly plant-based (along with dairy and eggs) eating with semi-frequent high quality cuts of meat has led to overall better health, energy levels, and satisfaction with food. I appreciate a good steak more.

Vegetarianism or even eating vegan for times is not in and of itself immoral, as I understand it. It's the ideology behind it. When my daughter was nursing, dairy upset her and caused bloody stools. So for some time we ate nearly vegan at family meals. Now she's fine, eats dairy herself, and all is well.