Is the SSPX lukewarm on family planning?

[LausTibiChriste]

Just when you thought the thread was about to die

[Chestertonian]

Just when you thought the thread was about to die


:popcorn:yeahifeel like we.ve has this discussion here before

[erin is nice]

Actually she had one child and was sterilized. 

What exactly do you mean she is obsessed with it because of guilt? 

Are you saying that she sees the depth and consequences of her error and wants to do penance for it and help others avoid the same mentality she had that led her to such error?

Or are you saying it would be better if she shut up about moral issues because it was an area in which she sinned?

I'm pretty sure she has one son and one daughter, but anyway... She's also a convert from some kind of Protestantism, which to me, anyway, means she should not be considered an authority on Church teaching.

[Jayne]

If I were doing things over again, knowing what I know now, I would discuss child-spacing issues with a good priest.  I think there is a danger of a couple deceiving themselves about their reasons for delaying pregnancy.  Talking to a priest would help couples to be confident that they truly have a grave reason.

"Child spacing issues" are not the moral question at stake, since it should be recognized up front that "child spacing" is just the thing that Catholics avoid in order to not become part of the world. Having "grave reasons" is something that can be discussed with a priest, but there is no expectation that such a discussion should be necessary absent the kinds of things that were present at the time that Pope Pius XII wrote his Allocution, such as millions of people displaced by WWII who were still living in displaced persons camps.

On the other hand, I have a problem when people who have no apparent business discussing it try to determine whether a couple had a good enough reason to use NFP.  I see it as a discussion for the husband and wife and their pastor/ spiritual director.

As far as "discussion" that is personal, yes. As far as doctrine, no.

It is important that the standards of the traditional Catholic Church be maintained and defended.

There is no need for others to butt into the personal business of couples, but that is not what is happening here, nor do I see it happening elsewhere. Just the opposite. Everyone takes a "who am I to judge?" approach to the question.

When you look at groups that have succeeded in maintaining a strong religious identity, it is because they have not compromised on this issue. Orthodox Jews still are instantly recognizable for their adherence to their religious beliefs because they have not compromised on family planning, natural or otherwise. But once they start having families of 2 or 3 children, then they become Conservative or Reform and blend into the wider society, and die.

Catholics used to be recognizable by the size of their families. That was an identifying trait of Catholics. Not anymore. Mormons too were once able to maintain their religious identity through their large families, but they also are become more and more mainstream.

Every couple who violates the teaching weakens the whole group and helps to destroy the community solidarity which is so essential for maintaining religious standards in the face of the world. Just like every 2-income household helps to destroy the ability of 1-income households to maintain their way of life.

I suspect that we are using terminology differently. The term "child spacing" appears to have connotations for you that it does not for me. Your response does not really make sense using the term as I do.  It is a neutral term to refer to a decision to delay pregnancy. 

I think that one reason that discussions of this topic become heated is that there is a tendency for people to take personally statements that are intended as comments on doctrine.  Also we seem to lack a common vocabulary. This leads to confusion and misunderstaning. I think there is actually less disagreement than there seems to be.

[Chestertonian]

Actually she had one child and was sterilized. 

What exactly do you mean she is obsessed with it because of guilt? 

Are you saying that she sees the depth and consequences of her error and wants to do penance for it and help others avoid the same mentality she had that led her to such error?

Or are you saying it would be better if she shut up about moral issues because it was an area in which she sinned?

I'm pretty sure she has one son and one daughter, but anyway... She's also a convert from some kind of Protestantism, which to me, anyway, means she should not be considered an authority on Church teaching.

conberts can't eber be authoritues on church teaching someone better tell

[Maximilian]

I suspect that we are using terminology differently. The term "child spacing" appears to have connotations for you that it does not for me. Your response does not really make sense using the term as I do.  It is a neutral term to refer to a decision to delay pregnancy. 

I'm not sure whether it's a question of terminology or whether we just have a different reaction to the issue. To me, "child spacing" is never a neutral term, not because of the language, but because of the concept it represents.

Similarly, "pregnancy termination" is never a neutral term for me. It always has fairly hot-button connotations. You might say, "There are medical conditions in which 'pregnancy termination' is an allowable option, and so it doesn't always have to refer to elective abortion. Yes that might be true, but it's not ever going to make a phrase like "pregnancy termination" into a neutral term for me.

Someone else who grew up in a different cultural milieu in which spacing children was just a normal part of life, and then later they learn that the Catholic Church condemns birth control, that person still won't have a negative association with the concept of child spacing. Even if they agree on a book-learning level, their gut instincts will be different from mine.

[Maximilian]

conberts can't eber be authoritues on church teaching someone better tell

... St. Augustine?

[Chestertonian]

conberts can't eber be authoritues on church teaching someone better tell

... St. Augustine?tecgnivally i thibk he is a revert.

[Jayne]

I suspect that we are using terminology differently. The term "child spacing" appears to have connotations for you that it does not for me. Your response does not really make sense using the term as I do.  It is a neutral term to refer to a decision to delay pregnancy. 

I'm not sure whether it's a question of terminology or whether we just have a different reaction to the issue. To me, "child spacing" is never a neutral term, not because of the language, but because of the concept it represents.

Similarly, "pregnancy termination" is never a neutral term for me. It always has fairly hot-button connotations. You might say, "There are medical conditions in which 'pregnancy termination' is an allowable option, and so it doesn't always have to refer to elective abortion. Yes that might be true, but it's not ever going to make a phrase like "pregnancy termination" into a neutral term for me.

Someone else who grew up in a different cultural milieu in which spacing children was just a normal part of life, and then later they learn that the Catholic Church condemns birth control, that person still won't have a negative association with the concept of child spacing. Even if they agree on a book-learning level, their gut instincts will be different from mine.

I can see that "child spacing" would be a negative term for a person who associates it primarily with birth control and improperly motivated NFP.  I just don't see any reason to make that association.  You could be right that this due to my upbringing in secular culture.  It makes sense that my instincts would be off in this area.

My personal experience of NFP was that I used it with an inadequate understanding of Church teaching and often not for grave reasons.  So I am quite sympathetic to people who talk about "contraceptive mentality" and similar problems with NFP.  I have no difficulty understanding why they want to warn others of these issues.  I regret my mistakes in this regard and would have appreciated a better explanation of Church teaching than I had received.

Still, it could have been worse.  When I went through RCIA, I was told that using birth control was a matter of conscience (as per the Winnipeg Statement) and so I did not even know that it was against Catholic teaching.  Fortunately my husband had a good enough Catholic formation to know that it was wrong.