Was the pandemic God's Wrath?

Started by TheReturnofLive, June 29, 2021, 10:09:12 AM

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TheReturnofLive

"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

Vetus Ordo

Yes, that's a reasonable interpretation of the data.

But it's a mild manifestation of God's wrath. More like a warning.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

Insanis

#2
It isn't a very wrathful disease. Although, such a fast spreading and mostly benign disease revealing the weaknesses in human society is perhaps telling. This disease revealed to all the nations that their selfishness and love of luxury is so fragile and futile. They stopped having children, to be liberated. They destroyed families, to be free. They consumed whatever and whenever they wanted, and demanded other people pay for it. So, the population demographics are backwards, personal health is atrocious, and family support is lacking so people end up in nursing homes, which is where the virus was most deadly. Supply chain interruptions revealed just how close everything is to being toppled.

For a disease which, for all the people I knew who got it, were less inconvenienced in their lives than I experience with a typical cold, it doesn't seem particularly wrathful.

Disease and hardship are a result of original sin, but this disease is doesn't compare to the daily reality of human life and disease throughout history and the world.

Infectious diseases used to be top killers of everybody, whether it be smallpox or TB or other such diseases, or infections from wounds of any sort.

So, as a disease, this virus is not particularly significant. It is only significant for countries where infectious diseases are not a major problem at all, and people die from their lifestyles or time or by suicide.

So this virus is more likely an inevitable result of modern "developed" life and values. This House of Cards these people made can be toppled by the smallest thing.

Melkor

#3
If the pandemic was God's wrath then He is not the God of justice. God's wrath would be fire and brimstone , not a flu-like virus.
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

"Am I not here, I who am your mother?" Mary to Juan Diego

"Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along a dusty English road, and he will soon discover why beer was invented." G.K. Chesterton

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill." Jesus Christ

The Curt Jester

God's wrath is more evident in the quality of leadership (both Church and State) that we get.  Right now I think he's rather angry at us.
The royal feast was done; the King
Sought some new sport to banish care,
And to his jester cried: "Sir Fool,
Kneel now, and make for us a prayer!"

The jester doffed his cap and bells,
And stood the mocking court before;
They could not see the bitter smile
Behind the painted grin he wore.

He bowed his head, and bent his knee
Upon the Monarch's silken stool;
His pleading voice arose: "O Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!"

TheReturnofLive

Quote from: Melkor on June 29, 2021, 10:23:07 AM
If the pandemic was God's wrath then He is not the God justice. God's wrath would be fire and brimstone , not a flu-like virus.

Exodus 7-9
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

james03

It's a Mercy in that it has woken more people up and for those already awake, pissed them off more.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Insanis

#7
Quote from: TheReturnofLive on June 29, 2021, 10:35:36 AM
Quote from: Melkor on June 29, 2021, 10:23:07 AM
If the pandemic was God?s wrath then He is not the God justice. God?s wrath would be fire and brimstone , not a flu-like virus.

Exodus 7-9

I think he means that God's wrath doesn't need government spokespeople constantly telling people there is an emergency.

It should be evident to the general population that is afflicted.

If anything, we are afflicted with these politicians and governments and weak leadership in general, even inside the Church sometimes.

ermy_law

I'm going with no.

As a parent, it serves no purpose to punish my children unless they know for certain they're being punished and why. Seems like God would follow the same pattern.

If the pandemic had a larger purpose, it was to wake people up to how they're being constantly manipulated by every facet of society around them, including their own minds.

Vetus Ordo

Natural disasters were usually seen as a sign of God's wrath or judgment. When Lisbon suffered a devastating earthquake in 1755, the clergy back then interpreted it as a sign of God's judgment against the moral decadence of the people and the ruling elites. It was Voltaire, I think, one of the first who spoke out against it in public and popularized the theory that natural phenomena and disasters have no moral weight and are the result of the laws of nature independent from God, which is the main thrust of Deism, the true religion of most people who self-identify as Christians in the West nowadays, after you scratch the surface.

The traditional hermeneutic of seeing God's signs and justice in nature was discouraged after the 18th century and the triumph of the Enlightenment even in Catholic circles. This trend continues to the present when even self-proclaimed Catholics tend to shy away from the notion that God can punish people via earthquakes, tornadoes, viruses, etc.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

ermy_law

In this instance, the virus itself was relatively non-serious compared with other illnesses. The governmental response was draconian. So the pandemic, if we're talking about the actual virus, doesn't seem to rise to the level of a God's wrath sort of event, in my opinion.

I do think it was meant to teach a lesson, though.

TheReturnofLive

#11
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on June 29, 2021, 11:01:06 AM
Natural disasters were usually seen as a sign of God's wrath or judgment. When Lisbon suffered a devastating earthquake in 1755, the clergy back then interpreted it as a sign of God's judgment against the moral decadence of the people and the ruling elites. It was Voltaire, I think, one of the first who spoke out against it in public and popularized the theory that natural phenomena and disasters have no moral weight and are the result of the laws of nature independent from God, which is the main thrust of Deism, the true religion of most people who self-identify as Christians in the West nowadays, after you scratch the surface.

The traditional hermeneutic of seeing God's signs and justice in nature was discouraged after the 18th century and the triumph of the Enlightenment even in Catholic circles. This trend continues to the present when even self-proclaimed Catholics tend to shy away from the notion that God can punish people via earthquakes, tornadoes, viruses, etc.

Ain't that the issue.

I agree, traditional Christian theism makes it unabashedly clear that God punishes through natural disasters.

Matthew 24:7-8 (On the Signs of the End Times)
"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
All these are the beginning of sorrows."

How do we reconcile that, though, with the fact that hurricanes and tornadoes are cyclical natural phenomena in North America; earthquakes are cyclical natural phenomena in places like California and Central America; and Tsunamis are cyclical natural (sort of) phenomena in East Asia?

Perhaps the "Principalities" of these nations are demons? (see Daniel 10:12-14)

Or maybe the natural disasters in of themselves aren't punishments; only when they disastrously affect human beings; maybe God makes sure circumstances arise that prevent people from escaping the clutches of natural disasters.
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

Prayerful

If it is, God's wrath is very slight, whereas I think it would be very great. Most of those reported COVID deaths are dubious, certainly for Ireland.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.

Vetus Ordo

Quote from: TheReturnofLive on June 29, 2021, 11:27:10 AM
Or maybe the natural disasters in of themselves aren't punishments; only when they disastrously affect human beings; maybe God makes sure circumstances arise that prevent people from escaping the clutches of natural disasters.

Natural disasters are:

1. The result of original sin and the disorder it brought to the created order;
2. The cyclical reminder that we are all sinners in the hands of a righteous God. They bring sudden death and destruction and with it a call to repentance.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

diaduit

Quote from: ermy_law on June 29, 2021, 10:48:55 AM
I'm going with no.

As a parent, it serves no purpose to punish my children unless they know for certain they're being punished and why. Seems like God would follow the same pattern.

If the pandemic had a larger purpose, it was to wake people up to how they're being constantly manipulated by every facet of society around them, including their own minds.

I would agree with this.  Where there is evil so to do great Graces flow and I've seen that in attendance at our masses which has exploded. 

I couldn't call that a pandemic never mind a 'wrath'.  I would think that the Tsunami of 2004 was a warning from God to change or else!!