The Talmud Confirms Jesus Christ
The Talmud witnesses about the extraordinary and Earth shatteringly significant event, which did indeed occur around the time of 30 A.D.
In the centuries that followed the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., Jewish rabbis worked to compile two records of rabbinic discussions pertaining to Jewish law, ethics, customs, and history.
The first was compiled in the land of Palestine and became known as the Jerusalem Talmud.
The second was compiled in the land of Babylon and was known as the Babylonian Talmud.
The Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud contain a description of amazing and extraordinary miracles from the the time of Jesus Christ.
During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the lot for the Lord did not come up in the right hand - it always came up in the left hand of the High Priest.
Nor did the crimson-colored strap become white, but it remained crimson.
The doors of the Temple would open by themselves.
They would close the doors of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open.
There were actually four miracles.
The miracle of the lot, the miracle of the crimson strip, the miracle of the Temple doors, and the miracle of the Temple Menorah.
The miracle of the lot concerns a random choosing of the "lot" which was cast on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur).
The lot chosen determined which of two goats would be "for the Lord" and which goat would be the "Azazel" or "scapegoat".
During the two hundred years before 30 A.D., when the High Priest picked one of two stones - this selection was governed by chance - each year the Priest would select a black stone as often as a white stone.
But for forty years in a row, beginning in 30 A.D., the High Priest always picked the black stone!
The odds against this happening are astronomical.
The chances of this occurring are 1 in approximately 5.479.548.800 or about 5.5 billion to one.
The lot for the scapegoat Azazel, the black stone, contrary to all the laws of chance, came up 40 times in a row from 30 to 70 A.D.
This casting of lots is also accompanied by yet another miracle - the miracle of the crimson strip.
A crimson strip or cloth was tied to the Azazel goat.
A portion of this crimson cloth was also removed from the goat and tied to the Temple door.
Each year the crimson cloth on the Temple door turned white as if to signify the atonement of another Yom Kippur was acceptable to the Lord.
This annual event happened until 30 A.D. when the cloth then remained crimson each year to the time of the Temple's destruction.
This traditional practice is linked to Israel confessing its sins and ceremonially placing the nation's sin upon the Azazel scapegoat.
The sin was then removed by this goat's death.
Sin was represented by the crimson color of the cloth (the color of blood).
But the cloth remained crimson that is, Israel's sins were not being pardoned and "made white".
excerpted from:
https://philipaohlund.blogspot.com/2010/08/talmud-confirms-jesus-christ.html
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Talmudic Evidence for the Messiah at 30 C.E.
In the centuries following the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem (70 CE), the Jewish people began writing two versions of Jewish thought, religious history and commentary. One was written in Palestine and became known as the Jerusalem Talmud. [see special endnote at the end of this article concerning the Talmud] The other was written in Babylon and was known as the Babylonian Talmud.
We read in the Jerusalem Talmud:
"Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open" (Jacob Neusner, The Yerushalmi, p.156-157). [the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE]
A similar passage in the Babylonian Talmud states:
"Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ['For the Lord'] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves" (Soncino version, Yoma 39b).
excerpted from:
http://www.windowview.org/hmny/pgs/talmuds.30ce.html
and
http://www3.telus.net/public/kstam/en/temple/details/evidence.htm
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Extraordinary Extrabiblical Evidence For Jesus Christ From The Jewish Talmud
There is extraordinary evidence in the Jewish Talmud that something incredibly miraculous happened approximately 40 years before the Jewish Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.
The Jewish Talmud actually records four amazing miracles that all began about 40 years before the Temple was finally destroyed.
excerpted from:
http://shatteredparadigm.blogspot.com/2008/12/extraordinary-extrabiblical-evidence.html
Very interesting find! The respective Talmud sections can be found here:
https://www.sefaria.org/Yoma.39b?lang=bi (https://www.sefaria.org/Yoma.39b?lang=bi)
https://www.sefaria.org/Rosh_Hashanah.31b?lang=bi (https://www.sefaria.org/Rosh_Hashanah.31b?lang=bi)
This is all very interesting, but I wonder if it's accurate.
First off, it would indicate (or at least seem to indicate) that Christ was crucified on Friday April 7, A.D. 30 (rather than on Friday April 3, A.D. 33). But A.D. 30 is too early, as Jimmy Akin points out (https://www.ncregister.com/blog/7-clues-tell-us-precisely-when-jesus-died-the-year-month-day-and-hour-revealed):
- Luke 3:1 indicates that Jesus's public ministry didn't begin until after St. John the Baptist began preaching, which was in the fifteenth year of Tiberius (= A.D. 29), and
- St. John's gospel indicates that Jesus's public ministry lasted for at least 3 years, so the crucifixion would have had to be in A.D. 32 at the earliest, and it would need to be in a year in which Passover falls on a Friday.
The only date that works is Friday April 3, A.D. 33 (and also, I think there was a lunar eclipse in Jerusalem at sundown/moonrise on April 3, A.D. 33, which is fitting).
The A.D. 30 date would be nice, as there'd then be exactly 40 years between the crucifixion and the beginning of the Siege of Jerusalem. But we don't want to choose a date that contradicts Scripture.
Also, looking further into it, I'm not seeing any source for the dates of these miracles. The Talmud says it happened "during the tenure of Shimon HaTzaddik". This wouldn't have been A.D. 30-70. (Recall, the high priest at the time of the crucifixion was Caiphas. And Caiphas's successor was Annas.) Shimon HaTzaddik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_the_Just) reigned way back in the second or third century B.C., and I think the 40 years are legendary, not the actual length of his reign. And if the 40 years are an exaggeration, the miracles must also be exaggerated (if not made up completely).
But then again, I don't know much about the Talmud or Jewish history. I suppose I might be overlooking something.
Quote from: Daniel on October 24, 2020, 07:14:18 AM
First off, it would indicate (or at least seem to indicate) that Christ was crucified on Friday April 7, A.D. 30 (rather than on Friday April 3, A.D. 33). But A.D. 30 is too early, as Jimmy Akin points out (https://www.ncregister.com/blog/7-clues-tell-us-precisely-when-jesus-died-the-year-month-day-and-hour-revealed):
- Luke 3:1 indicates that Jesus's public ministry didn't begin until after St. John the Baptist began preaching, which was in the fifteenth year of Tiberius (= A.D. 29), and
- St. John's gospel indicates that Jesus's public ministry lasted for at least 3 years, so the crucifixion would have had to be in A.D. 32 at the earliest, and it would need to be in a year in which Passover falls on a Friday.
The only date that works is Friday April 3, A.D. 33 (and also, I think there was a lunar eclipse in Jerusalem at sundown/moonrise on April 3, A.D. 33, which is fitting).
The A.D. 30 date would be nice, as there'd then be exactly 40 years between the crucifixion and the beginning of the Siege of Jerusalem. But we don't want to choose a date that contradicts Scripture.
I was wondering about this as well. Some people argue that it could be indeed "3 years off", without contradicting scripture, if one counts the time when Tiberius became co-princeps in 12 AD as the beginning of his reign.
Or a different interpretation: The wonders in the temple could have started at the time when Christ began his public ministry. It makes sense that the holy of holies would be "empty" as the incarnate word of God literally lived among the people.
Quote from: Daniel on October 24, 2020, 07:14:18 AM
Also, looking further into it, I'm not seeing any source for the dates of these miracles. The Talmud says it happened "during the tenure of Shimon HaTzaddik". This wouldn't have been A.D. 30-70. (Recall, the high priest at the time of the crucifixion was Caiphas. And Caiphas's successor was Annas.) Shimon HaTzaddik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_the_Just) reigned way back in the second or third century B.C., and I think the 40 years are legendary, not the actual length of his reign. And if the 40 years are an exaggeration, the miracles must also be exaggerated (if not made up completely).
So, from what I understand, the first passage of Yoma 39b mentions Simeon the Just and the miracles during his time to contrast them against what was happening after 30 AD. When Simeon was High Priest, on Yom Kippur the lot for God always arose in his right hand. After his death, the priests stopped pronouncing the Tetragrammaton and the lot only occasionally arose in the right hand. After 30 AD the lot always(!) arose in the left hand. Plus, the crimson strip remained crimson, the westernmost lamp of the Menorah went out every night and the temple doors opened by themselves.
The 40 years are mentioned in Rosh Hashana 31b:
And it is taught in a baraita: During the forty years before the Second Temple was destroyed the strip of crimson wool would not turn white; rather, it would turn a deeper shade of red.
Quote from: Daniel on October 24, 2020, 07:14:18 AM
I suppose I might be overlooking something.
Yes, you are, and so is Jimmy Akin. Anno Domini (Vulgar Era) is off by about 4 years.
Here are some links to that effect. I'm sure you already knew this, but didn't notice it makes the 30 or 33 year distinction moot.
They are the same year. A.D. 33 is true-time 30.
Christ was at least 33 (exactly 33 since His Incarnation in the womb according to St. Hippolytus) when He died. He was incarnate while Herod the Great was king in 4 B.C. (Matthew 2)
The only reason why we haven't corrected the Anno Domini calendar is that we don't know which date precisely to start it with,
without relying upon debateable dates for the Incarnation, such as St. Hippolytus' December 25th. Declaring that date officially
in the calendar would result in a true time/calendar time differential of:
"The vulgar Era, or Anno Domini; the fourth year of Jesus Christ, the first of which was but eight days." (Alexander Campbell, Living Oracles, 1826).
This means there were indeed 40 years between the Crucifixion and the Seige of Jerusalem, also, as it means our true year now
is 2023; perhaps exactly November 4th, 2023.
'Dionysius Exiguus', James A. Veitch
https://www.westarinstitute.org/resources/the-fourth-r/dionysius-exiguus/
Christian calendar is wrong, says Pope: Blundering sixth-century monk was several years out in calculation of Jesus's birth date
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2236611/Christian-calendar-wrong-says-Pope-Blundering-sixth-century-monk-years-out.html
March 25th: Creation, Annunciation, & Calvary
https://sensusfidelium.us/march-25th/
Quote from: Santantonio on October 28, 2020, 03:34:22 PM
Yes, you are, and so is Jimmy Akin. Anno Domini (Vulgar Era) is off by about 4 years.
Here are some links to that effect. I'm sure you already knew this, but didn't notice it makes the 30 or 33 year distinction moot.
They are the same year. A.D. 33 is true-time 30.
Yes, I realize it's potentially off by 3 or 4 years. But I was referring to A.D 30 and A.D. 33 (both on our current dating scheme), which are not the same year. All the dates are relative to one another. If A.D. 30 is too early then it's still going to be too early even if relabelled as "A.D. 33". (Though maybe it's not too early. KonservativerKatholik did bring up a good point about Tiberius's reign.)
Quote
Christ was at least 33 (exactly 33 since His Incarnation in the womb according to St. Hippolytus) when He died.
I'd have to read the Hippolytus passage, but I'd think Christ would then be 34 when He died, counting from His conception. (But the thing is, we don't count a person's age from conception. We count from birth. So He'd have been 33 years old, plus roughly 3 months.)
QuoteHe was incarnate while Herod the Great was king in 4 B.C. (Matthew 2)
I'm aware of that, but there's a minority view in which Herod's death occurred in 1 B.C., not 4 B.C. I haven't looked into the historical evidence, but just considering the dates I think the 1 B.C. date is preferable.
The easiest way to figure it out would probably be to start with the date of the crucifixion and work backwards. Herod's death occurred after Christ's birth, and Christ's birth occurred 33 years (and some months) before the crucifixion. As for the crucifixion, there's only a few possible dates it could be, since it needs to fall on both a Friday and the 14th day of Nisan, and it needs to fit into the biblical timeline with all the other stuff (the three passovers, the fifteenth year of Tiberius, etc.). We know for sure which days were Fridays, since this is easily calculated. We can't know for sure when Nisan 14th was, but we can get a pretty good guess since the lunar cycle can be calculated. And maybe I'll look into it again, but, the last time I checked, I arrived at the same date that Jimmy Akin gives: Friday, April 3, A.D. 33. If you do the math, this would then place Christ's birth at December 25th, 2 B.C. So Herod's death would need to be some time
after that: probably in the beginning of 1 B.C. (Josephus says it happened after a lunar eclipse and before a passover. There was a total lunar eclipse January 9, 1 B.C. which was a few months before a passover. Seems to check out.)
A date of December 25, 5 B.C. for Christ's birth might work though, if the crucifixion was in April A.D. 30. This would allow for Herod to die towards the beginning of 4 B.C.
QuoteThe only reason why we haven't corrected the Anno Domini calendar is that we don't know which date precisely to start it with,
without relying upon debateable dates for the Incarnation, such as St. Hippolytus' December 25th. Declaring that date officially
in the calendar would result in a true time/calendar time differential of: "The vulgar Era, or Anno Domini; the fourth year of Jesus Christ, the first of which was but eight days." (Alexander Campbell, Living Oracles, 1826).
Well I think March 25th is close enough, even if not the exact date. (After all, it's good enough for the liturgy.)
I had wondered why Dionysius kept the start date on January 1st rather than move it to Christ's birth or conception, though I suppose January 1st isn't too bad. Christ's birth would have been at the tail end of 1 B.C., just one week before the start of A.D. 1. (Though, as I said above, I'm currently of the opinion that Christ was born in 2 B.C., not 1 B.C. I think Dionysius was a year off. Not sure if he made a mistake, or if maybe he deliberately did it like that to make the math easier with the leap years or something.)
Daniel, this is a very complicated subject, and worth adding time to pursuing in-depth, however, right now
I'd rather just remember the message - that God rejected the high priest sacrifices after the Crucifixion, and thoroughly
to the destruction of the Temple. I'm fairly convinced that time period was 40 years, also.
You may have seen the documentary, Star of Bethlehem, in which astronomical evidence is brought forth
to choose, of the two 14 Nisan Friday options, 7 April 30 or 3 April 33, the latter is linked to this star.
Here's a link to other interesting reasons to accept the 33 date. Still, remember... the Anno Domini system is wrong.
This means it was still approx/exactly 40 years spanned.
https://bethlehemstar.com/the-day-of-the-cross/
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGUlWa2r-bk[/yt]
Some not-so brilliant responses here by Jews wondering why this is the case
Why did the 4 miracles of the Temple stop 40 years before the destruction of the Temple?
https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/129499/why-did-the-4-miracles-of-the-temple-stop-40-years-before-the-destruction-of-the