SV friends: what's your end game and strategy for Church Restoration?

Started by JJoseph, October 19, 2024, 01:59:59 AM

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Bataar

Quote from: JJoseph on October 20, 2024, 11:58:04 PMThanks all for the responses. Will take Mike's for now.

Mike, without Archbishop Lefebvre, and then Bishop Fellay and Fr. Pagliarani going to Rome, there would have been no Summorum Pontificum in 2007 under Pope Benedict XVI. And it's thanks to Summorum Pontificum that we have this: "America's New Catholic Priests: Young, Confident and Conservative
In an era of deep divisions in the church, newly ordained priests overwhelmingly lean right in their theology, practices and politics ... there is increasing unity among the men joining the priesthood: They are overwhelmingly conservative in their theology, their liturgical tastes and their politics.


Priests ordained since 2010 "are clearly the most conservative cohort of priests we've seen in a long time" ... More than 80 percent of priests ordained since 2020 describe themselves as theologically "conservative/orthodox" or "very conservative/orthodox," according to a nationally representative survey of 3,500 priests published by the Catholic Project at the Catholic University of America." https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/10/us/catholic-priests-conservative-politics.html

If 80%+ of Priests in the Summorum Pontificum generation are very conservative/orthodox, in believing the Real Presence, the Eucharistic Sacrifice, are Pro-TLM etc, that means the liberal revolution of the 60s is at a decisive end. And demographically speaking, these young Priests will dominate the Church, including the Roman Church, in the next 20-25 years or so. And so the future looks quite good for Tradition within the Church. I was curious as to how those whose policies are "no discussions with Rome at all" would plan for the future of Tradition. Thanks for your response.
The problem is the question as to if they are even valid priests. It's entirely possible that the new form for the consecration of a bishop is invalid as it clearly doesn't match the requires that Pius XII infallibly declared to be required. If the bishops are not valid, than every single priest they have ordained are just as lay as you and I. Now, I'm not going to state with 100% certainty that they are not valid. Perhaps, in God's mercy, He has deemed to make them valid. However, we don't know this for sure and based on what we do know of the sacraments and how they work, I don't see how they can be valid.

Stubborn

Quote from: Michael Wilson on October 23, 2024, 04:45:36 PM
Quote from: Stubborn on October 23, 2024, 04:20:52 AMOk Michael, first off, I did not "interpret" anything, I use a pdf (attached) that I got off the web some years ago that was  translated by Mr John S. Daly sedevacantist. So if there is any misinterpretation or if anything at all was changed in the translation, the presumption would be that any bias favors sedeism, not R&R.

Next we must accept that what PPXII says is true, and also what PPIV says is true - that the pope can "be judged by none in this world." 

The *ONLY* way that the two teachings are not at odds with each other is when we actually and in practice follow the directive given to us by PPIV, that of not judging the pope.     
Stubb,
the above response and your affirmation, do not  make any sense. Both statements cannot be true: 1. A heretic is a member of the Church 2. A heretic is not a member of the Church. Either one is true or the other is false; to affirm that both are true is to deny the "principle of non-contradiction".
Michael,
Because these are both official Church teachings given to us by popes, we have no choice in the matter, we are bound to accept both as being true teachings of the Church. As such (for the purpose of this discussion), they are foundational teachings of the Church and cannot contradict or in any way be at odds with each other. Because they are two Catholic truths, the idea that they could be at odds with each other is altogether impossible.

That being the case, there is only one possible way for sedes to arrive at their conclusion and act as if their conclusion is the fact, that is by doing exactly what PPIV said we cannot do, they are judging the pope - that he is not the pope. 

That the pope is a heretic is apparently the stumbling block for sedes, the very idea is altogether unacceptable, even impossible for sedes, yet, that they will not accept this contradicts the true teaching of the Church as laid out for us by PPIV. 
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent

Michael Wilson

Of course you can't explain the contradiction, because it is blatant. So why go on with this useless argument.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael Wilson

Quote from: Greg on October 23, 2024, 08:22:40 PMWith enough envying of the dead and salvation coming from the East all this sede versus R&R shit will be water under the bridge.
Except the very teachings of the Church are at stake; denying the teachings of the Church in the name of defending the Catholic faith is not the way a Catholic should act.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

TradGranny

My strategy is to pray for the salvation of my husband, myself, our children and their spouses and our grandchildren, to offer up my suffering, and to pray for the grace to endure whatever God permits.
To have courage for whatever comes in life - everything lies in that.
Saint Teresa of Avila

Greg

Quote from: Michael Wilson on October 24, 2024, 05:18:55 PM
Quote from: Greg on October 23, 2024, 08:22:40 PMWith enough envying of the dead and salvation coming from the East all this sede versus R&R shit will be water under the bridge.
Except the very teachings of the Church are at stake; denying the teachings of the Church in the name of defending the Catholic faith is not the way a Catholic should act.

You mean like the teaching on usury?

After enough suffering, and a unification, some old teachings will be powerfully defended.  Divorce and abortion will be outlawed and punished harshly.  Others will be adapted or viewed under a new hermeneutic, argued about be a few freaks on computer forums and provided the unified church has legs it will forge ahead and sweep any contradictions under the carpet or explain them away with sophisticated apologists' arguments or just ignore them because nobody really cares.

Just like Jews who became Christians had to eat all sorts of foods that were banned before by the command of God.

Consider how big Traditional Catholicism is.  Several million people world wide. And growing.  Now consider the number of people seeking answers to these contradictions.  They can just about keep two forums going with 2 dozen semi active members.

It won't matter if the new Church has political energy and positive fruits.  99.9% of people won't care.
If I used a ouija board as a mouse mat would my desktop computer get repossessed?

Stubborn

Quote from: Michael Wilson on October 24, 2024, 05:14:31 PMOf course you can't explain the contradiction, because it is blatant. So why go on with this useless argument.
Because there is no contradiction for R&R Michael, only for sedes. You must accept that both truths are that "a single cloth woven from the top so that there are no seams, there is a perfect unity" that we spoke about and you agreed with some threads ago in prior discussions.

If sedes did as PPIV taught, due to the pope's heresies they would "contradict" him (as they and R&R already do) and not concern themselves with his status. This is what PPIV teaches.

For whatever reason, sedes a) concern themselves with the popes' status to the point that they, b) conclude (judge) as de fide that the conciliar popes are not popes, AND THEN c) "contradict" the conciliar popes.

The contradiction between the two papal truths occurs only for sedes because sedes replace what PPIV taught with A and B. Remove A and B from the formula and you will find that there is no contradiction whatsoever between what PPIV taught and what PPXII taught.     

Well there it is, explained.           
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent

Maximilian

Quote from: Stubborn on October 25, 2024, 04:11:52 AMFor whatever reason, sedes a) concern themselves with the popes' status to the point that they, b) conclude (judge) as de fide that the conciliar popes are not popes, AND THEN c) "contradict" the conciliar popes.

You are being disingenuous by saying "for whatever reason." The reason is very clear, and it has been expressed by Michael Wilson several times on this thread alone. He and other sedes do not accept that the pope can be a heretic. Therefore it is necessary first to depose him from the chair, at least in their minds, before they can proceed to criticize his heretical teachings.

Quote from: Stubborn on October 25, 2024, 04:11:52 AMThe contradiction between the two papal truths occurs only for sedes because sedes replace what PPIV taught with A and B. Remove A and B from the formula and you will find that there is no contradiction whatsoever between what PPIV taught and what PPXII taught.   

Well there it is, explained.           

No, not explained at all. As a third-party observer to this debate between you and Michael Wilson, I have no clue what you are talking about. I have a nagging feeling that you have a good point hiding under your obfuscation, but so far you have failed to explain your position.

Stubborn

Quote from: Maximilian on October 25, 2024, 07:54:16 AMYou are being disingenuous by saying "for whatever reason." The reason is very clear, and it has been expressed by Michael Wilson several times on this thread alone. He and other sedes do not accept that the pope can be a heretic. Therefore it is necessary first to depose him from the chair, at least in their minds, before they can proceed to criticize his heretical teachings.
PPIV said that a) the pope can be a heretic ("deviate from the faith") and if he is a heretic then b) you can contradict him, not depose him. I said "for whatever reason" because I know that sedes do not accept this teaching of PPIV and I do not understand why they do not accept this teaching even after it's been pointed out to them what PPIV said to do if/when the pope is a heretic - again, "depose him" was not what he said to do. In order to depose him one must first judge him, which is clearly contrary to PPIV's teaching. Have you read the quote?   

Quote from: Maximilian on October 25, 2024, 07:54:16 AMNo, not explained at all. As a third-party observer to this debate between you and Michael Wilson, I have no clue what you are talking about. I have a nagging feeling that you have a good point hiding under your obfuscation, but so far you have failed to explain your position.
This exercise is like explaining what the word "the" means.

Read what Pope Paul IV said, item #1 is all about a pope that is also a heretic, and what we are to do about it:
"1.In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought
that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fullness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also
that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted..."


We can and must judge what he says is heresy and contradict him (as we have been doing for 60 years) on that account, but we cannot judge *him* on that account. This is R&R in a nutshell.
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent

Michael Wilson

Max for your benefit: the Canonist & Theologians that treat of the case of a Pope falling into heresy only consider this possible that he could do so as a private individual.
here is Msgr. Lefebvre from an SSPX website:
QuoteLefebvre Archbishop
Sermon of sermon of the 8th of November, 1979, summarizes the study of Dr. Xaverio de Silverira
https://www.sspxasia.com/DocuŠ¼ents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/Vol_two/Chapter_40.htm
The very objective study of Xaverio de Silverira on this subject demonstrates that a good number of theologians teach that the Pope can be heretical as a private doctor or theologian but not as a teacher of the Universal Church. One must then examine in what measure Pope Paul VI willed to engage in infallibility in the diverse cases where he signed texts close to heresy if not formally heretical.
And here is the very quote from the study referred to above:
Quote"Can the Pope Go Bad?"
From the study of Arnaldo Vidigal  Xavier Da Silveira
Translated from the Portuguese original by John Russel Spahn
pg. 86.
Really, all the authors whom we know to have studied the hypothesis of a Pope heretic formulate the question only in relation to the eventual heresy of the Pontiff as a private person. Such being the case, it appears inevitable to conclude that it is theologically impossible to have heresy in an official document, that is, in a pronouncement of the Pope as a public person
The Pope (s) of Vatican II in acting as "Popes" have taught various errors even heresies, as Msgr. Lefebvre and the SSPX admit.
The above quote from Paul IV "E.C.A.O" stated that the Pope can be contradicted if he were to fall into heresy.
But it doesn't go into to the case in detail, but Pope Innocent III stated clearly that if the Pope were to fall into heresy he would fall from office he could be judged, because he had already lost his office.
QuotePope Innocent III (1198)

"The Roman Pontiff has no superior but God. Who, therefore (should a pope 'lose his savor') could cast him out or trample him under foot - since of the pope it is said 'gather thy flock into thy fold'? Truly, he should not flatter himself about his power, nor should he rashly glory in his honor and high estate, because the less he is judged by man, the more he is judged by God.

 "Still the less can the Roman Pontiff glory [Minus dico] because he can be judged by men, or rather, can be shown to be already judged, if for example he should wither away into heresy; because he who does not believe is already judged.

"In such a case it should be said of him: 'If salt should lose its savor, it is good for nothing but to be cast out and trampled under foot by men'." Sermo 4.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael Wilson

Greg,
QuoteYou mean like the teaching on usury?
That's right Greg, just like the teaching on usury.

QuoteAfter enough suffering, and a unification, some old teachings will be powerfully defended.  Divorce and abortion will be outlawed and punished harshly.  Others will be adapted or viewed under a new hermeneutic, argued about be a few freaks on computer forums and provided the unified church has legs it will forge ahead and sweep any contradictions under the carpet or explain them away with sophisticated apologists' arguments or just ignore them because nobody really cares.
Greg what you just described above is called "Protestantism"; and it doesn't work.

QuoteJust like Jews who became Christians had to eat all sorts of foods that were banned before by the command of God.
In the Old Testament, God explicitly tells the Jews that he will abolish the Covenant that He was with them and set up a New and better one. The dietary and ceremonial laws of the O.T. Where the prefigurement of the New laws and ceremonies of the Catholic Church.

QuoteConsider how big Traditional Catholicism is.  Several million people world wide. And growing.  Now consider the number of people seeking answers to these contradictions.  They can just about keep two forums going with 2 dozen semi active members.
Until we get a Pope and all those disputes will be settled.

QuoteIt won't matter if the new Church has political energy and positive fruits.  99.9% of people won't care.
It matters to God. This isn't a "popularity contest". Its about keeping God's teachings and obeying His laws. Not ever very popular in the best of times.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Stubborn

Quote from: Maximilian on October 25, 2024, 07:54:16 AMNo, not explained at all. As a third-party observer to this debate between you and Michael Wilson, I have no clue what you are talking about. I have a nagging feeling that you have a good point hiding under your obfuscation, but so far you have failed to explain your position.

Cum ex says: "...who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith..." - R&R

Cum ex does not say: "...who may judge all and be judged by all in this world, is automatically already or may be deposed if he be found to have deviated from the Faith..." - Sedevacantist

Clear now?
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent