Missal of Paul VI

[sub ratione boni]

Is this an appropriate place to discuss the ars celebrandi and related aspects of Paul VI's missal?

[Kaesekopf]

Can you elaborate on what you mean?

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[sub ratione boni]

Sure!

I would like to discuss the possibility of celebrating the Missal of Paul VI well (including posture, language, position of particular items in the apse and sanctuary, etc.) and in a way that the more traditionally minded might be more open to participate. Possible questions might include:

Are there ways to celebrate this missal in which the reverence, beauty, and worship sought in the extraordinary form might be made present?

How so?

What limitations are there to doing this?

Is there anything contained in the missal of Paul VI, differing from the missal of John XXIII, that is good?

Things like that.

[devoutchristian]

This should be an interesting thread.

[Der Kaiser]

This should be an interesting thread.

Uh...yeah...

[Pius Papa Decimus]

In all honesty the only answers I can think of regarding your questions are "no, no, no, and no" . There are problems in the externals sure, but the greatest problems are those contained within the missal of Paul VI. After reading the Ottaviani intervention I could not assist at the Novus Ordo any longer. That's just my experience though.

[Der Kaiser]

Sure!

I would like to discuss the possibility of celebrating the Missal of Paul VI well (including posture, language, position of particular items in the apse and sanctuary, etc.) and in a way that the more traditionally minded might be more open to participate. Possible questions might include:

Are there ways to celebrate this missal in which the reverence, beauty, and worship sought in the extraordinary form might be made present?

How so?

What limitations are there to doing this?

Is there anything contained in the missal of Paul VI, differing from the missal of John XXIII, that is good?

Things like that.

The problem is the rite itself not the absence of smells and bells. I would say that if you are going to do this though watch how they do it on EWTN. They are essentially trying to do what you are. However I would celebrate it ad orientum also.

[Der Kaiser]

In all honesty the only answers I can think of regarding your questions are "no, no, no, and no" . There are problems in the externals sure, but the greatest problems are those contained within the missal of Paul VI. After reading the Ottaviani intervention I could not assist at the Novus Ordo any longer. That's just my experience though.

This, this, this and this!!!!!!!!!!!

[sub ratione boni]

There are problems in the externals sure, but the greatest problems are those contained within the missal of Paul VI.

Can you please elaborate? What are the problems and where does it show up in the text of the missal and/or the GIRM? Why are they problems?

I am not issuing a challenge here. There is no need to "defend" a position. I'd just like to know why or why not (specifically) the text of missal of Paul VI and the GIRM allow for a well-prayed mass. I am also fully able to read a book. If I wanted to read a book about the topic, I could. I'm here to learn from the forum itself.

[sub ratione boni]

I would say that if you are going to do this though watch how they do it on EWTN. They are essentially trying to do what you are. However I would celebrate it ad orientum also.

Is there anything you find lacking in this particular expression (besides ad orientum)? If so, why do you consider it a privation?

[Pius Papa Decimus]

I could give you my thought on the subject but that would not give the matter at hand justice. As you can see there have been books upon books written on the subject. The Ottaviani intervention was written by a group of theologians, priests, and bishops (including our dear Archbishop Lefebvre) it was then signed by Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci. It is a short book but well worth the read. It goes into the questions that you ask about the missal. I trust the words of these men who are much wiser and holier than I am. Also the book was written in like 1970 or somewhere around there. It is based on the critique of the Missa Normativa celebrated in the Sistine Chapel so; latin, chant, ad orientum, etc. the Ottaviani intervention is online for free on Fisheaters. Please read it if you haven't.

[sub ratione boni]

I could give you my thought on the subject but that would not give the matter at hand justice. As you can see there have been books upon books written on the subject. The Ottaviani intervention was written by a group of theologians, priests, and bishops (including our dear Archbishop Lefebvre) it was then signed by Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci. It is a short book but well worth the read. It goes into the questions that you ask about the missal. I trust the words of these men who are much wiser and holier than I am. Also the book was written in like 1970 or somewhere around there. It is based on the critique of the Missa Normativa celebrated in the Sistine Chapel so; latin, chant, ad orientum, etc. the Ottaviani intervention is online for free on Fisheaters. Please read it if you haven't.

Which do you find is the most important point/argument/critique the books makes? Why is this particular issue so important?

[Pius Papa Decimus]

What particular issue?

[sub ratione boni]

Whichever issue you identify as the most important one in the Ottaviani intervention.

[Pius Papa Decimus]

No dude, I'm talking about the book in general. I've read other books too. I want to read Davies' trilogy on the Mass too. I just know that my explanation would not be worth it when you can just read a quick book written by much smarter men. I mean two thousand years of organic development that brings us to the beauty and perfection of the Traditional Mass compared to the bastardized new rite we've seen in these last 40 year or so. I don't know man, for me it's pretty clear. Listen to sermons on audiosancto of sensustraditionis. When I went on a silent retreat Father Calvin Goodwin was the retreat master and all of his talks were on the Holy Mass. What a holy and wise man.