The Church Courtyard > General Catholic Discussion

Temptation to orthodoxy

(1/48) > >>

Chestertonian:
I haven't spent much time reading abut wider church affairs, at least not as much as I used to.  This has been a good thing for my spirituality and wellbeing.  I've also tried to keep a simpler Eastern spirituality.  the language of eastern spirituality speaks to my soul at this point in my life.  I don't have as much anxiety about whether i'm doing it all wrong, so prayer is a lot more restful.  but I have never formally switched rites.  my wife has been going to an eastern catholic church nearby and prefers it to the traditional latin mass.

Father respects the latin tradition very much, though.  for example he said that  even if my wife formally switches rites, the children are roman because i am roman rite.  If we want the boys to receive confirmation there, it has to be done through the proper channel.

we end up procrastinating on that. she is busy, dealing with the archdiocese and going through the motions of switching rites is daunting.  the lst time i talked to my wife about it, she said that she's thought about walking away from the catholic church and joining the orthodox church right in our neighborhood.  i think this is because the priest and his family have been very good to us.  since the pandemic started they have been allowing us to go into the church by ourselves to sit with jesus and pray without anyone else.  the building is wheelchair accessible so I can get in and out easily.  she has gotten to know some of the other mothers in the community and they have a thing where they talk on zoom and do their kniting projects.  on one level, i think the pull she's experiencing is emotional.  she feels a bond and connection to the church because the people there have shown us a lot of charity and she has some good friendships there.  but after the pope said what he said about civil unions, she said to me "I don't know why I bother being eastern catholic anymore.  why do I have to jump through these hoops and follow these rules so i can do the right thing when the pope has no regard for the rules?"  when the pandemic is over she wants the boys to receive confirmation.  my older one has already received solemn holy communion without confirmation

i see her point and i struggle a lot with remaining catholic.  it's not just francis church, but an even deeper sense of not knowing who I can trust within the church.  I also love our lady and the rosary and so many roman catholic traditions.  I also already had one conversion in my life and just do not have the energy to convert again.  I am an old dog and there are only so many new tricks I am going to learn.  My wife isn't in that same headspace.  She's spent a lot of her free time reading orthodox books...she's using an orthodox homeschool program where my son gets to take online courses in russian.  I never got to move past beginner russian and probably won't but it makes me happy to see him enjoy learning new things.  using orthodox religious education resources is appealing because  it doesnt carry the baggage of having to reconcile the official church teaching on the papacy with the problematic aspects of the current pontificate.

as much as I love the traditional Latin Mass, I can't experience it in person anymore and haven't for years.  As much as traditional Catholicism is its own beautiful liturgical tradition, I've gotten tired of the reactionary aspects of traditionalism.  being a trad today is as much about rejecting modernism and the new mass as it is about worshipping God.  I remember listening to sermon after sermon, many were fixated on the culture war.  I hate that my 10 year old son wouldn't even know what an abortion is if he hadn't heard about it at Mass.  Eastern Catholicism doesn't exist today in opposition to the Novus Ordo.  There isn't the same fixation with tradition for tradition's sake. 

has anyone felt this same "pull" toward the orthodox faith?  what has kept you from leaving?  I want to trust the church again but so much damage has been done.  I don't want to lead my family away from Heaven.

John Lamb:
TheReturnofLive posted a very interesting article by the great Russian Orthodox theologian Bulgakov on Vatican I / papal infallibility. It gets quite heady but overall it's a very interesting and readable text.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/articles/39-the-vatican-dogma

What I'd say about papal infallibility is that nowadays, it's turned out to be something other than what it directly states. Papal infallibility is not really about whether the pope's solemn definitions (in very restrictive circumstances) are protected by God from erring; rather, papal infallibility is a doctrine which cements the ultramontanist culture of putting the person of the Pope at the centre of all Catholic life, thought, religion. We see this now with Francis where every offhand statement, regardless of what "level of authority" it might have, is treated by the media both in and outside the Church as a topic of theological discussion and controversy, rather than just the rambling of a bad and sloppy theologian. For someone suffering from chronic illness and exhaustion this is an especially appalling situation, having to constantly defend and reassasses one's own religion every time its leader makes a public statement.

Relating this back to your issue. Personally I'd just say go where you're likely to benefit most spiritually. The notion that God is going to exclude you from heaven and condemn you to hell for not sticking to a relatively tiny subculture of Roman Catholicism which the Roman Pontiff himself and a great majority of the Roman hierarchy regard with suspicion or contempt - - this is not a sustainable view. The truth is that the Roman hierarchy these days regards Orthodoxy as a religion basically on equal terms to itself; only Traditionalists are stubborn to insist absolutely on Roman supremacy. And even if Traditionalists are ultimately correct, it's morally impossible to blame someone for getting it wrong when the Church's very leadership is constantly signalling in a completely opposite direction.

I sympathise with not having the energy to convert again. All I'd say about that is conversion doesn't have to be too exhausting; that is, if you don't allow yourself to get caught up in all the intellectual controversies and trying to iron out your own position dogmatically and systematically. If you just let the Eastern liturgy wash over you and let your wife do all the intellectual heavy lifting for you, you probably won't have to do all that much that's tiring. The main thing is not to be scrupulous or regretful about whatever decision you make.

Daniel:

--- Quote from: Chestertonian on October 29, 2020, 01:12:18 AM ---has anyone felt this same "pull" toward the orthodox faith?  what has kept you from leaving?  I want to trust the church again but so much damage has been done.  I don't want to lead my family away from Heaven.

--- End quote ---

I briefly felt it, but I think it was from the devil. I had been praying, asking God to show me the Church. The next thing I know, I start coming across Orthodox apologetics such as Jay Dyer's YouTube channel and a biased (pro-Orthodox) Wikipedia page. So I take it all as a sign from God, telling me that the Catholic Church is a false church.

But then a few months later I came to my senses when somebody (Vetus Ordo if I'm not mistaken) posted this video and (I think) this video. The first video more or less destroys all of Jay Dyer's credibility and proves that he is a tool of Satan, and both of them shows some reasons why Orthodoxy is wrong.

Though, as I watched these videos (and other videos put out by MHFM), one question occurred to me: Is MHFM to be trusted? Or is MHFM also just a tool of the devil, designed to lead people such as myself out away from heaven? I still don't know the answer. In some ways their position sounds kind of crazy, based too much in private revelation, and forces us to believe too much in conspiracy theories such as the "two Lucy" theory. But in other ways it makes sense. I mean, if the Catholic Church is supposed to be visible then why can't we see it? Perhaps this really is the fulfillment of the La Salette prophecy, "The Church will be in eclipse". And maybe all the other private revelations, as well as the Apocalypse, are being fulfilled before our very eyes.

(So I don't know. What I can say is that MHFM makes some amazing videos, including this one about Pokémon which really called out to me. Perhaps it's not as meaningful to anyone else, but I've been playing Pokemon for 21 years, and, for the past 5 or 8 years or so, have been trying to figure out if it's good or evil, and it really had me stumped. Yet this MHFM guy comes along, and, with seemingly no effort, demonstrates the satanic inspiration behind Pokémon. Just like MHFM did with Jay Dyer. And now I'm convinced, even though I spent at least 5 years and even got a degree in Game Design and was still unable to figure it out, having remained blinded to the series' satanic inspiration until I watched the video. And no other trad groups are bringing this to our attention. Lots of criticism towards Harry Potter, but not Pokémon. So maybe MHFM is from God after all. Yet maybe it isn't. I don't think I've ever caught them in a lie though.)

But as for Orthodoxy, all we need to do is find out whether or not everyone in the Church believed in papal infallibility and papal supremacy ever since the very beginning. (Easier said than done, I suppose.) But if everyone did believe in these two dogmas since the very beginning, then Orthodoxy has no argument and is nothing more than a schismatic, false church.

Innocent Smith:

--- Quote from: Daniel on October 29, 2020, 09:07:46 AM ---
--- Quote from: Chestertonian on October 29, 2020, 01:12:18 AM ---has anyone felt this same "pull" toward the orthodox faith?  what has kept you from leaving?  I want to trust the church again but so much damage has been done.  I don't want to lead my family away from Heaven.

--- End quote ---

I briefly felt it, but I think it was from the devil. I had been praying, asking God to show me the Church. The next thing I know, I start coming across Orthodox apologetics such as Jay Dyer's YouTube channel and a biased (pro-Orthodox) Wikipedia page. So I take it all as a sign from God, telling me that the Catholic Church is a false church.

But then a few months later I came to my senses when somebody (Vetus Ordo if I'm not mistaken) posted this video and (I think) this video. The first video more or less destroys all of Jay Dyer's credibility and proves that he is a tool of Satan, and both of them shows some reasons why Orthodoxy is wrong.

Though, as I watched these videos (and other videos put out by MHFM), one question occurred to me: Is MHFM to be trusted? Or is MHFM also just a tool of the devil, designed to lead people such as myself out away from heaven? I still don't know the answer. In some ways their position sounds kind of crazy, based too much in private revelation, and forces us to believe too much in conspiracy theories such as the "two Lucy" theory. But in other ways it makes sense. I mean, if the Catholic Church is supposed to be visible then why can't we see it? Perhaps this really is the fulfillment of the La Salette prophecy, "The Church will be in eclipse". And maybe all the other private revelations, as well as the Apocalypse, are being fulfilled before our very eyes.

(So I don't know. What I can say is that MHFM makes some amazing videos, including this one about Pokémon which really called out to me. Perhaps it's not as meaningful to anyone else, but I've been playing Pokemon for 21 years, and, for the past 5 or 8 years or so, have been trying to figure out if it's good or evil, and it really had me stumped. Yet this MHFM guy comes along, and, with seemingly no effort, demonstrates the satanic inspiration behind Pokémon. Just like MHFM did with Jay Dyer. And now I'm convinced, even though I spent at least 5 years and even got a degree in Game Design and was still unable to figure it out, having remained blinded to the series' satanic inspiration until I watched the video. So maybe MHFM is from God after all. Yet maybe it isn't. I don't think I've ever caught them in a lie though.)

But as for Orthodoxy, all we need to do is find out whether or not everyone in the Church believed in papal infallibility and papal supremacy ever since the very beginning. (Easier said than done, I suppose.) But if everyone did believe in these two dogmas since the very beginning, then Orthodoxy has no argument and is nothing more than a schismatic, false church.

--- End quote ---

Run.  Do not walk away from these people.

No need to think here.  Nor would I worry which camp I was in at this moment. 

The Church has done nothing as of late except to convince us She is not Who She says She Is. 

So one might ask, is The Church a tool of Satan? 

At this point, I just say, "go and sin no more'.  And call it a day already. 

trentcath:

--- Quote from: Chestertonian on October 29, 2020, 01:12:18 AM ---I haven't spent much time reading abut wider church affairs, at least not as much as I used to.  This has been a good thing for my spirituality and wellbeing.  I've also tried to keep a simpler Eastern spirituality.  the language of eastern spirituality speaks to my soul at this point in my life.  I don't have as much anxiety about whether i'm doing it all wrong, so prayer is a lot more restful.  but I have never formally switched rites.  my wife has been going to an eastern catholic church nearby and prefers it to the traditional latin mass.

Father respects the latin tradition very much, though.  for example he said that  even if my wife formally switches rites, the children are roman because i am roman rite.  If we want the boys to receive confirmation there, it has to be done through the proper channel.

we end up procrastinating on that. she is busy, dealing with the archdiocese and going through the motions of switching rites is daunting.  the lst time i talked to my wife about it, she said that she's thought about walking away from the catholic church and joining the orthodox church right in our neighborhood.  i think this is because the priest and his family have been very good to us.  since the pandemic started they have been allowing us to go into the church by ourselves to sit with jesus and pray without anyone else.  the building is wheelchair accessible so I can get in and out easily.  she has gotten to know some of the other mothers in the community and they have a thing where they talk on zoom and do their kniting projects.  on one level, i think the pull she's experiencing is emotional.  she feels a bond and connection to the church because the people there have shown us a lot of charity and she has some good friendships there.  but after the pope said what he said about civil unions, she said to me "I don't know why I bother being eastern catholic anymore.  why do I have to jump through these hoops and follow these rules so i can do the right thing when the pope has no regard for the rules?"  when the pandemic is over she wants the boys to receive confirmation.  my older one has already received solemn holy communion without confirmation

i see her point and i struggle a lot with remaining catholic.  it's not just francis church, but an even deeper sense of not knowing who I can trust within the church.  I also love our lady and the rosary and so many roman catholic traditions.  I also already had one conversion in my life and just do not have the energy to convert again.  I am an old dog and there are only so many new tricks I am going to learn.  My wife isn't in that same headspace.  She's spent a lot of her free time reading orthodox books...she's using an orthodox homeschool program where my son gets to take online courses in russian.  I never got to move past beginner russian and probably won't but it makes me happy to see him enjoy learning new things.  using orthodox religious education resources is appealing because  it doesnt carry the baggage of having to reconcile the official church teaching on the papacy with the problematic aspects of the current pontificate.

as much as I love the traditional Latin Mass, I can't experience it in person anymore and haven't for years.  As much as traditional Catholicism is its own beautiful liturgical tradition, I've gotten tired of the reactionary aspects of traditionalism.  being a trad today is as much about rejecting modernism and the new mass as it is about worshipping God.  I remember listening to sermon after sermon, many were fixated on the culture war.  I hate that my 10 year old son wouldn't even know what an abortion is if he hadn't heard about it at Mass.  Eastern Catholicism doesn't exist today in opposition to the Novus Ordo.  There isn't the same fixation with tradition for tradition's sake. 

has anyone felt this same "pull" toward the orthodox faith?  what has kept you from leaving?  I want to trust the church again but so much damage has been done.  I don't want to lead my family away from Heaven.

--- End quote ---

Some research will quickly disabuse you of the desire to convert to orthodoxy.

Firstly, the simple fact is "Orthodoxy" these days is nothing more and nothing else than national loyalty. Hence the desire to create more and more national churches everytime an empire crumbles or relations worsen between two states, the current conflict between Russia, Ukraine and the ecumenical patriarch (i.e. Constantinople) is a good example of this. http://www.spc.rs/eng/archbishop_ieronymos_has_reached_dead_end_ukraine The issue goes back a long way though https://ocl.org/the-1872-council-of-constantinople-and-phyletism/ http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/the-synod-of-constantinople-1872-the-oecumenical-synods-of-the-orthodox-church-fr-james-thornton.pdf The Orthodox church therefore clearly is not "Catholic" i.e. Universal, it is more a loose collection of blatantly national churches.

Secondly, the Orthodox churches have always had serious case of caesaropapism, this page is a good overview https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2020/02/caesaropapism-in-orthodoxy-the-byzantine-empire.html Even more scandalous of course was their collaboration with and control by communists see here https://repository.law.miami.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1310&context=umiclr

On these grounds alone the Orthodox church fails, but one should also note their contradictory positions on purgatory, the ridiculous arguments about whether only leavened or unleavened bread could be used for the host, the argument regarding the procession of the holy spirit from the father and the son, and so on.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
Go to full version