Traditio Custodes and the Sunday Obligation

[drummerboy]

  While the results of the Sept. 25 meeting of the Ecclesia Dei meeting with still await release, and with the papal delegates already being unleashed, we might as well ask the question: if the TLM is "canceled," who here will go to the N.O., or who will just not go at all?  I struggle with this in my own conscience almost daily.  Especially since there are many, many good devout Catholics - both lay and clerical - that still attend the N.O.  But at what point does participation become wrong?  I just simply cannot do it.  I cannot go back to the N.O.  One of the marks of the True Church is its Apostolicity, and this "thing" that emerged after V2 is simply not Apostolic.  Catholics hand on what they have received, not form a committee of modernist theologians, Protestant advisors, headed by a Freemason, and form a new rite from scratch.  It seems daily new revelations come to light showing more and more the truth Bishop Vigano's assertion of a new, dual "church" that exists alongside the true Church.  And I have my doubts about Pope Francis being that, just how much heresy does a Pope need to preach before he's not Pope?  How can a heretic have been made been pope validly to begin with?  I think I will take my chances on Judgment Day by following what my conscience and good ol' common sense tell me than participating in this "thing."  I have images of the Apostles themselves judging us for abandoning what we should have adhered to.  There is historical precedent for this: the Essenes of Jesus' time did not attend the Temple, as they believed the Sadducees had corrupted it, and John the Baptist was likely an Essene.  Anyway, let the discussion flow and the well beaten horses be beat some more.

[ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez]

Dwelling on TC, I've come up with a lot of "what if" scenarios that I am unable to solve.

But I only need to solve the one that actually happens, and so far, none of them have.

For what it's worth, I don't think the TLM will ever disappear, even if some churchmen forge ahead with a heavy-handed approach to TC.  I don't think most fraternity/institute priests would comply with a mandate to celebrate only the NO.  I don't think a diocesan priest who currently celebrates the TLM will go back to the NO.  (His parishioners probably wouldn't, either.)

If they end up being removed because they won't comply, I'm sure some of them would continue to offer the true Mass underground.  Many would probably join the SSPX.  And speaking of the SSPX, there's no way they would start saying the NO.

Compare TC with the jab mandates.  Rulers in both the religious and political spheres are issuing edicts well outside the scope of their authority.  What happens next?  Nobody knows.

[EastWest7]

Speaking for myself, I think that essentially there are two options relative to the worsening situation in the Church under Francis. These are the Byzantine/Eastern Rite (although there is of course, a greater or lesser degree of Novus Ordo culture, depending on the parish). Also thankfully there is the SSPX. I am fortunate in that I live within 30 minutes of four Eastern parishes (3 Byzantine, 1 Maronite) and two SSPX parishes. I understand many folks may not have this option. I have mostly been attending a Byzantine parish since 1986, occasionally a diocesan TLM.   

[ermy_law]

I will never go to the Novus Ordo for the same reason that I won't go to the local Episcopalian/Methodist/Baptist/Presbyterian/etc services.

[Prayerful]

The SSPX would be the only option if somehow the approved TLM with the older priest vanished. Now there are some Eastern liturgies in diocesan churches, but aside from not having the foggiest with the language, Latin for whatever my weakness in it is relatively understandable, these are for small ethnic communities. If somehow the SSPX were not accessible, I've a few missals to read, whether Roman, Use of Toulouse (which has a few Irish saints for some reason), Use of Paris, Dominican, Sarum, plus I would try doing the office properly, not just that short SSPX booklet thing, whether Roman, Benedictine, Capuchin or Ordinariate. The hidden Catholics of Japanese did on occasion gather for some fragments of the liturgy in Portuguese accented Latin, but mainly they prayed.

[Christina_S]

I still don't know what we would do. My husband and I are at a bit of a stalemate: I won't go back to the NO without kicking and screaming, and he won't go to the SSPX because he views them as schismatic (and yes, he's seen debates and the Lefebvre documentary; he remains unconvinced).

Even if a group of TLM-goers were to suddenly show up at the local NO and gradually take over the music ministry/parish council/finance council/etc., I doubt it would be good for most of the souls involved. The more I look at the NO (having attended the TLM almost exclusively for over a year), the more I think it was a failed experiment.

[Tennessean]

My life goal is to get a job that I can afford the move to St Mary's, because when I marry that's where I'd want my kids educated. So I'm not even worried about what I would do.

[coffeeandcigarette]

My life goal is to get a job that I can afford the move to St Mary's, because when I marry that's where I'd want my kids educated. So I'm not even worried about what I would do.

Dude, unless you are in a huge amount of debt, just move now. Get a job here, move in with some nice single guys, start your life. These are not times to say "one day."

[Tennessean]

My life goal is to get a job that I can afford the move to St Mary's, because when I marry that's where I'd want my kids educated. So I'm not even worried about what I would do.

Dude, unless you are in a huge amount of debt, just move now. Get a job here, move in with some nice single guys, start your life. These are not times to say "one day."

I would but I'm already in maritime school, so I'm going to be working for experience, until I have sea time and my AB rating. Then I can probably live anywhere and work seasonal or rotating jobs.

[drummerboy]

I still don't know what we would do. My husband and I are at a bit of a stalemate: I won't go back to the NO without kicking and screaming, and he won't go to the SSPX because he views them as schismatic (and yes, he's seen debates and the Lefebvre documentary; he remains unconvinced).

Even if a group of TLM-goers were to suddenly show up at the local NO and gradually take over the music ministry/parish council/finance council/etc., I doubt it would be good for most of the souls involved. The more I look at the NO (having attended the TLM almost exclusively for over a year), the more I think it was a failed experiment.

This is what strikes me as especially sinister about TC.  Before, one could make an excuse that the NO was the norm, and the TLM permitted for those either elderly and attached to the older rite, or who genuinely found spiritual benefits from it.  As time goes on and the springtime of V2 has without any doubt, apart from the most disillusioned old hippies and the revolutionaries, turned into fall rot, the experiment has failed utterly.  Any growth and vitality in the Church is coming from the traditional orders, congregations, etc.  The fact that Francis is trying to crush the TLM now shows a complete disregard for the spiritual welfare of Catholics, and a hatred for anything remotely Catholic.

[LausTibiChriste]

Personally, I'm going to Divine Liturgies - lots available in my area and already go 2-3 Sundays a month. The only downside is that in a church that could easily hold 500 there's about 750 at each of the 4 liturgies on Sunday. Not convenient when you have a rambunctious toddler who wants to run everywhere.

The TLM is still safe where I am, for now. We have SSPX but it's in a rundown hotel room, so I go to FSSP and/or Diocesan for now - 5 TLMs available every Sunday which is nice.

On the few random days I have to work on Sunday, I still attend the NO, albeit under protest. I hate it with every fiber of my being and highly question its validity, but for now I don't know if I can 'give myself permission' to skip out a Mass on Sundays that for all intents and purposes has been proclaimed by the Church, even if it is fake and gay. Usually I just sit at the back, pray my Rosary and don't participate at all. I'm just there for the attendance checkmark lol.

It's a struggle for sure.

[Christina_S]

I still don't know what we would do. My husband and I are at a bit of a stalemate: I won't go back to the NO without kicking and screaming, and he won't go to the SSPX because he views them as schismatic (and yes, he's seen debates and the Lefebvre documentary; he remains unconvinced).

Even if a group of TLM-goers were to suddenly show up at the local NO and gradually take over the music ministry/parish council/finance council/etc., I doubt it would be good for most of the souls involved. The more I look at the NO (having attended the TLM almost exclusively for over a year), the more I think it was a failed experiment.

This is what strikes me as especially sinister about TC.  Before, one could make an excuse that the NO was the norm, and the TLM permitted for those either elderly and attached to the older rite, or who genuinely found spiritual benefits from it.  As time goes on and the springtime of V2 has without any doubt, apart from the most disillusioned old hippies and the revolutionaries, turned into fall rot, the experiment has failed utterly.  Any growth and vitality in the Church is coming from the traditional orders, congregations, etc.  The fact that Francis is trying to crush the TLM now shows a complete disregard for the spiritual welfare of Catholics, and a hatred for anything remotely Catholic.

Exactly. I've made the comment before that the Church is hemorrhaging through her loss of faithful members, but trad priests, religious, and laymen are infusing her with fresh blood and oxygen. Now we've got a pope who wants to cut that off and kill her.

[LausTibiChriste]

I still don't know what we would do. My husband and I are at a bit of a stalemate: I won't go back to the NO without kicking and screaming, and he won't go to the SSPX because he views them as schismatic (and yes, he's seen debates and the Lefebvre documentary; he remains unconvinced).

Even if a group of TLM-goers were to suddenly show up at the local NO and gradually take over the music ministry/parish council/finance council/etc., I doubt it would be good for most of the souls involved. The more I look at the NO (having attended the TLM almost exclusively for over a year), the more I think it was a failed experiment.

This is what strikes me as especially sinister about TC.  Before, one could make an excuse that the NO was the norm, and the TLM permitted for those either elderly and attached to the older rite, or who genuinely found spiritual benefits from it.  As time goes on and the springtime of V2 has without any doubt, apart from the most disillusioned old hippies and the revolutionaries, turned into fall rot, the experiment has failed utterly.  Any growth and vitality in the Church is coming from the traditional orders, congregations, etc.  The fact that Francis is trying to crush the TLM now shows a complete disregard for the spiritual welfare of Catholics, and a hatred for anything remotely Catholic.

Exactly. I've made the comment before that the Church is hemorrhaging through her loss of faithful members, but trad priests, religious, and laymen are infusing her with fresh blood and oxygen. Now we've got a pope who wants to cut that off and kill her.

It kind of gives me hope, weirdly.

Like, the worse it gets the more miraculous the rejuvenation (for lack of a better term) is going to be

All seemed pathetically hopeless when they took Christ down from the Cross, but 3 days later it was the greatest time to be alive.

[Miriam_M]

I do not believe that the same God whose name is Mercy -- He who created all of us and died to redeem us -- will require perfect knowledge of the "right" and "wrong" paths in these extraordinarily challenging and confusing times, when true leaders are scarce and courage in a leader is scarcer.  He will not punish us for misjudgments that were made sincerely and imperfectly, especially since we're having to do so much self-navigation.

[ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez]

All seemed pathetically hopeless when they took Christ down from the Cross, but 3 days later it was the greatest time to be alive.

Even the women who went to His tomb expected to find a dead body.