Accepting Apology

Started by Heinrich, January 20, 2023, 08:15:07 PM

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awkward customer

Quote1. We are not called to go beyond what God himself does when it comes to forgiveness. Many Christians believe .... that they are obliged to forgive even those who are not in the least bit sorry for their offenses. And on the surface this sounds really . . . Christian. But is it true? God himself doesn't do it. He forgives only those who repent of their sins. 2 Corinthians 7:10 says, "Godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation." 1 John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he . . . will forgive our sins."

Our Lord obviously has not forgiven and will not forgive the souls in hell right now for the simple reason that they did not ask for forgiveness. This seems as clear as clear can be.

The question is, are we required to do more than God does when it comes to forgiveness? Jesus seems to answer for us in Luke 17:3-4:

If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, "I repent," you must forgive him.

According to this text, and as we would suspect, Jesus requires his followers to forgive only those who are sorry for their offenses, just as God does. And this only make sense. Colossians 3:13 says we are to called to forgive each other "as the Lord has forgiven [us]."

Some will say at this point, "Didn't Jesus forgive everyone from the cross when he said, 'Forgive them, for they know not what they do' in Luke 23:34?" Actually, he didn't. He petitioned the Father for those who had beaten and crucified him to be forgiven, revealing his will that "all men . . . be saved" (1 Tim. 2:4). But this was not a declaration that even these men were actually forgiven, much less a declaration that he was forgiving everyone for all time.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/to-forgive-or-not-to-forgive-that-is-the-question

TradGranny

The prayer taught to us directly from Jesus Christ says "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

I am a sinner. I make frequent confessions and try to do better. I trust that my sins are forgiven in that sacrament and I make offerings to Our Lord for my past sins. Our Catholic Faith teaches us that we are made acceptable to the Father by the Bloody Sacrifice of Our Savior Jesus Christ on the cross.

But if I fail to do what I am specifically asked to do in the Our Father prayer, how can I expect to be forgiven myself?
To have courage for whatever comes in life - everything lies in that.
Saint Teresa of Avila

Julio

Quote from: TradGranny on February 04, 2023, 04:05:39 PMAs a victim of severe childhood multi-perpetrator assaults, let me say that it has been a long difficult process to forgive them. It has only been by the grace of God that I have been able to do so. Having said that, for the safety of familiy members, none of us have anything to do with any of the perpetrators, nor anyone who associates with them. To do so would be dangerous. Forgiveness is not something we do for the well-being of the other person; it is something we do to please God, to break the bond that would continue to tie us to the perps, and for our own well-being. Is my process complete? haha No. I am still a work in process. But every time the enemy attacks, I flee to Our Lord and Our Lady and my Guardian Angel for protection. And offer my suffering to God, which glorifies God and puts the enemy to shame.
This is what I mean by we must forgive anyone who offend us even if they do not hear us. That is not to communicate to them but to comply with this command of God:

If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions. (Matthew 6:14&15)

God bless and thank you for sharing this with us.

Julio

Quote from: TradGranny on February 05, 2023, 04:59:48 PMThe prayer taught to us directly from Jesus Christ says "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

I am a sinner. I make frequent confessions and try to do better. I trust that my sins are forgiven in that sacrament and I make offerings to Our Lord for my past sins. Our Catholic Faith teaches us that we are made acceptable to the Father by the Bloody Sacrifice of Our Savior Jesus Christ on the cross.

But if I fail to do what I am specifically asked to do in the Our Father prayer, how can I expect to be forgiven myself?
Indeed, and you are so blessed for that goodness that God endowed in your intellect.

awkward customer

#49
It is nonsense to suggest that while God demands repentance in order to forgive, we have to forgive the unrepentant.

I don't know where you people are getting your ideas from, but you have set standards for forgiveness that God has not.

Do you agree that God sends unrepentant fraudsters and murderers to Hell? Yes?

Then why do you insist that we must forgive such a person?

 

awkward customer

#50
Quote from: Julio on February 05, 2023, 06:08:18 PMThis is what I mean by we must forgive anyone who offend us even if they do not hear us. That is not to communicate to them but to comply with this command of God:


Nonsense.  God does not forgive the unrepentant.  If He did, Hell would be empty.  Is Hell empty?  No.  Who is in Hell?  The unrepentant.

Your version of forgiveness only works if you re-write Matthew 18, which clearly states that we are to treat those who won't 'hear us' - the unrepentant - as publicans and tax collectors. 

Are you really saying that you know better than Matthew 18?


awkward customer

Quote from: TradGranny on February 05, 2023, 04:59:48 PMBut if I fail to do what I am specifically asked to do in the Our Father prayer, how can I expect to be forgiven myself?

In the Our Father you are asking God to forgive you.  In order for God to forgive you, you have to repent. 

Therefore you should forgive those who repent and ask to be forgiven, just as God forgives you for repenting and asking to be forgiven.

Why would God expect you to do something that He won't do, ie, forgive the unrepentant?

awkward customer

Quote from: TradGranny on February 04, 2023, 04:05:39 PMAs a victim of severe childhood multi-perpetrator assaults, let me say that it has been a long difficult process to forgive them. It has only been by the grace of God that I have been able to do so. Having said that, for the safety of familiy members, none of us have anything to do with any of the perpetrators, nor anyone who associates with them. To do so would be dangerous. Forgiveness is not something we do for the well-being of the other person; it is something we do to please God, to break the bond that would continue to tie us to the perps, and for our own well-being. Is my process complete? haha No. I am still a work in process. But every time the enemy attacks, I flee to Our Lord and Our Lady and my Guardian Angel for protection. And offer my suffering to God, which glorifies God and puts the enemy to shame.

How can it be pleasing to God for you to 'forgive' an unrepentant offender who is still dangerous?  If God doesn't forgive unrepentant sinners, why are you trying to go one step further than God?

If they had repented, they wouldn't still be a danger, would they. Because repentance implies a serious attempt to amend the behaviour which caused the harm.  And you say they are still dangerous.

Meanwhile, I applaud your attempts to let go of what was done to you.

By the way, I am also a victim of relentless cruelty and neglect throughout my entire childhood. Just thought I'd mention that.


Instaurare omnia

Quote from: awkward customer on February 06, 2023, 04:07:10 AMIt is nonsense to suggest that while God demands repentance in order to forgive, we have to forgive the unrepentant.

I don't know where you people are getting your ideas from, but you have set standards for forgiveness that God has not.

Do you agree that God sends unrepentant fraudsters and murderers to Hell? Yes?

Then why do you insist that we must forgive such a person?
 
Because God is God, and we're not God.
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem, frustra vigilat qui custodit eam (Psalm 126:2).
Benedicite, montes et colles, Domino: benedicite universa germinantia in terra, Domino (Daniel 3:75-76).
Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation (Psalm 145:2-3).

Instaurare omnia

Quote from: awkward customer on February 06, 2023, 05:42:33 AMBy the way, I am also a victim of relentless cruelty and neglect throughout my entire childhood. Just thought I'd mention that.
You're not alone. But you're not the first and won't be the last. There isn't an exempted class of believers according to the Sermon on the Mount, specifically Matthew 6:14-15.

QuoteFor if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.

That's Douay-Rheims, clear as day, not some revisionist translation. As for Matthew 6:13,
QuoteAnd lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.

Refusing to forgive can indeed be the result of having been led into temptation. In The Spiritual Combat, Fr. Lorenzo Scupoli said that we are not to rely on our own judgment but to trust in God instead. Fr. Scupoli also said that to forgive evil is to approach the Divine. (This is 16th century writing also admired by St. Francis de Sales, not some humanist self-affirmation psychobabble.)

Perhaps it's only semantics, and your admitted ability to "let go" does indeed entail forgiveness. From there, it's not much of a leap. Why let your soul continue to be yoked to the wrongdoing of others?
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem, frustra vigilat qui custodit eam (Psalm 126:2).
Benedicite, montes et colles, Domino: benedicite universa germinantia in terra, Domino (Daniel 3:75-76).
Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation (Psalm 145:2-3).

Instaurare omnia

TradGranny, have you heard of St. Maria Goretti? It's an example of forgiveness that's both awful and awesome when one first finds out about her story.
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem, frustra vigilat qui custodit eam (Psalm 126:2).
Benedicite, montes et colles, Domino: benedicite universa germinantia in terra, Domino (Daniel 3:75-76).
Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation (Psalm 145:2-3).

awkward customer

Quote from: Instaurare omnia on February 06, 2023, 08:13:03 AM
Quote from: awkward customer on February 06, 2023, 04:07:10 AMIt is nonsense to suggest that while God demands repentance in order to forgive, we have to forgive the unrepentant.

I don't know where you people are getting your ideas from, but you have set standards for forgiveness that God has not.

Do you agree that God sends unrepentant fraudsters and murderers to Hell? Yes?

Then why do you insist that we must forgive such a person?
 
Because God is God, and we're not God.

So, God doesn't forgive the unrepentant because He's God, but we have to because we're not God?

I think that's ridiculous. 

You're saying that God has double standards and that He sets higher standards for us than He does for Himself.

Beyond ridiculous.....

awkward customer

#57
Quote from: Instaurare omnia on February 06, 2023, 08:40:55 AM
Quote from: awkward customer on February 06, 2023, 05:42:33 AMBy the way, I am also a victim of relentless cruelty and neglect throughout my entire childhood. Just thought I'd mention that.
You're not alone. But you're not the first and won't be the last. There isn't an exempted class of believers according to the Sermon on the Mount, specifically Matthew 6:14-15.

Tell this to Tradgranny.  I only mentioned this because she referred to her own childhood abuse.


Quote
QuoteFor if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.

That's Douay-Rheims, clear as day, not some revisionist translation. As for Matthew 6:13,
QuoteAnd lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.

Refusing to forgive can indeed be the result of having been led into temptation. In The Spiritual Combat, Fr. Lorenzo Scupoli said that we are not to rely on our own judgment but to trust in God instead. Fr. Scupoli also said that to forgive evil is to approach the Divine. (This is 16th century writing also admired by St. Francis de Sales, not some humanist self-affirmation psychobabble.)

But what is meant by forgiving?   This is what I keep wondering.

You, and others here, keep posting Scriptural quotes referring to the necessity of forgiving while brushing aside any Scriptural quote that refers to the conditions under which it is obligatory to forgive.

Matthew 18:15-17 is quite clear. If anyone offends you and will not "hear you", or hear the community or the Church, you are to treat the person as a publican or tax collector.

Are you saying that treating an unrepentant offender as a tax collector or publican is the equivalent of forgiving them.

If you are, then we clearly have two entirely different ideas about what forgiveness actually means.

QuotePerhaps it's only semantics, and your admitted ability to "let go" does indeed entail forgiveness. From there, it's not much of a leap. Why let your soul continue to be yoked to the wrongdoing of others?

What a nerve!

My ability to let go involves no foriveness because the people involved died unrepentant. 

Has God forgiven them, do you think?  Are they in Hell?  Do you think I should forgive people who are in Hell because they are unrepentant and therefore rejected by God?

The Truth shall set you free, and your soul, from the wrongdoing of others.  Half-baked notions of forgiveness won't.

awkward customer

#58
Insisting that victims forgive their unrepentant abusers is tantamount to psychological abuse and gives the offender a free pass to continue the behaviour.  No-one has the right to place this burden on victims.

The responsibility for forgiveness begins with the perpetrator showing remorse and asking to be forgiven.   By insisting that victims forgive perpetrators who show no remorse and have no wish to be forgiven, you are shifting the responsibility for forgiveness to the victim.

This is an inversion of the Truth. 

Psychopaths must love it when you tell their victims to forgive them.

   

Instaurare omnia

QuoteWhat a nerve!
My ability to let go involves no foriveness because the people involved died unrepentant.
:huh:
Is it "nerve" to suggest, having once thought as you do now, that explaining what helped me might help you too? 

I have forgiven people who died unrepentant. I did it after being tired of kicking and screaming on the inside, and after much imploring of God, but I did. It's not my place to speculate whether those souls are now in Hell or even Purgatory, in fact it's absolutely none of my business. What is my business is to try to live as God commands, and to shun secular "authorities" and revisionist pop theology. (Being able to forgive -- as Scripture and Tradition define it, not as laypeople define it -- opens us up to a noticeable beneficent difference that simply is not possible with any worldly intervention; only then does life begin to get easier and less harsh, slowly, but it definitely does.)

Is it my business, is it my obligation, to bother anymore with this topic? Maybe not. I'll shut up here, say a prayer, and let it go at that.  :pray1:
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem, frustra vigilat qui custodit eam (Psalm 126:2).
Benedicite, montes et colles, Domino: benedicite universa germinantia in terra, Domino (Daniel 3:75-76).
Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation (Psalm 145:2-3).