Accepting Apology

[awkward customer]

In Post 151 of this thread, you cited Christ's words on the Cross as evidence that God forgives unrepentant sinners.

Why, then, is it dangerous to assume that the unrepentant sinners responsible for the Crucifixion are in Heaven? 

Is it your opinion that there are unrepentant sinners in Heaven?
 
You say the answer is in "the hands of God".  Does that mean you don't know?

Right, I specificially stated that Jesus while on the cross forgave the unrepentant sinners. That is what is written in the Bible. The words spoken by God.

I did not say these sinners were allowed to be in Heaven. God did say that to the good thief but He did not say that to the unrepentant sinners. He forgave them for sure. Hence it is clear that as to whether or not they were admitted in Heaven is in the hands of God.

They are very simple words to be understood. Nothing is to be assumed from that. Assumption of anything out of the meaning of what God did can bring your soul to hell. That makes assumption a dangerous act.

Clearly you don't have an answer. 

You are refusing to consider the implications of what you are saying.  You then resort to table thumping and issuing threats of hellfire and damnation.

I find your behaviour offensive in the extreme.

You're on ignore.  But remember - I forgive you.

[awkward customer]

Dear Akward,
I was listening to this short Father Ripperger video and I thought of the struggle you're experiencing. He explains the role of repentence.

This is very kind of you, TradGranny. 

But are you sure this is the video you meant to post?

[Julio]

Clearly you don't have an answer. 

You are refusing to consider the implications of what you are saying.  You then resort to table thumping and issuing threats of hellfire and damnation.

I find your behaviour offensive in the extreme.

You're on ignore.  But remember - I forgive you.

I just made a clear answer to you. Nothing was added by God that He shall bring them to paradise after they were forgiven. Hence, that matter is in the hands of God. If your are offended by the truth, so be that. I am not here to make you feel better. I am here to state the truth.

Assumption or claims against that are blasphemous that can bring ones soul to hell. I remain. Whatever is in your mind is for your to will that. God knows my intention and God bless.

[awkward customer]

From the Catechism of Trent.

Necessity Of Forgiveness

...... Those, therefore, on whom injuries have been inflicted, should be ready and willing to pardon, urged to it as they are by this form of prayer[The Our Father], and by the command of God in St. Luke: If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him; and if he repent, forgive him; and if he sin against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, "I repent," forgive him.

So that's two Theology Manuals, the other being Heribert Jone, which mandate forgiveness of the unrepentant, albeit with certain disclaimers.

But the Catechism of Trent doesn't?  I have a copy and will go on looking looking.   

The end of that same paragraph in the Catechism of Trent also says:

and finally we read in the Gospel of St. Mark: When you shall stand to pray, forgive if you have anything against any man; that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Yes, but which kind of forgiveness?  I found this quote on a random Catholic website.

' ..... we should forgive even those who don't ask forgiveness..... It's good to remember that our "forgiveness" is not the same as God's forgiveness. We aren't absolving someone of sin when we "forgive" them. We are simply letting go of any ill will we might have toward them, and in effect we are hoping that they reconcile with God.'
https://rcspirituality.org/ask_a_priest/ask-a-priest-should-i-forgive-when-someone-isnt-repentant/

The author of the article even puts our "forgiveness" in quotes to emphasize the difference.  When we forgive someone who doesn't ask to be forgiven, all we have to do is "let go of any ill will we might have towards them" and pray for them to be reconciled with God.  That's all.  We don't even have to resume the friendship.

The fact that there are two types of forgiveness with the same name causes a lot of confusion.  From now on I shall take care to remember that 'our forgiveness is not God's forgiveness'.  In effect - I forgive you in that I hold no ill will against you, but you're out of my life.   

[TradGranny]

Dear Akward,
I was listening to this short Father Ripperger video and I thought of the struggle you're experiencing. He explains the role of repentence.

This is very kind of you, TradGranny. 

But are you sure this is the video you meant to post?

YOu are right! Let me try to find the right one.

[TradGranny]

Dear Akward,
I was listening to this short Father Ripperger video and I thought of the struggle you're experiencing. He explains the role of repentence.

This is very kind of you, TradGranny. 

But are you sure this is the video you meant to post?

YOu are right! Let me try to find the right one.

here it is

 It's all good, but 4:38 is on people who are difficult to forive because they think they're getting away with offending God.

[Baylee]

In Post 151 of this thread, you cited Christ's words on the Cross as evidence that God forgives unrepentant sinners.

Why, then, is it dangerous to assume that the unrepentant sinners responsible for the Crucifixion are in Heaven? 

Is it your opinion that there are unrepentant sinners in Heaven?
 
You say the answer is in "the hands of God".  Does that mean you don't know?

Right, I specificially stated that Jesus while on the cross forgave the unrepentant sinners. That is what is written in the Bible. The words spoken by God.

I did not say these sinners were allowed to be in Heaven. God did say that to the good thief but He did not say that to the unrepentant sinners. He forgave them for sure. Hence it is clear that as to whether or not they were admitted in Heaven is in the hands of God.

They are very simple words to be understood. Nothing is to be assumed from that. Assumption of anything out of the meaning of what God did can bring your soul to hell. That makes assumption a dangerous act.

Clearly you don't have an answer. 

You are refusing to consider the implications of what you are saying.  You then resort to table thumping and issuing threats of hellfire and damnation.

I find your behaviour offensive in the extreme.

You're on ignore.  But remember - I forgive you.

Hmm.  Sounds like the narcissists in my life.  I'm seeing a pattern. I refuse to do narcissists.

I will be putting him on ignore as well.

[awkward customer]

Hmm.  Sounds like the narcissists in my life.  I'm seeing a pattern. I refuse to do narcissists.

I also refuse to do narcissists.  My mother was one and her side of the family is full of them.

Having a narcissistic mother is a foretaste of hell.

[awkward customer]

I made a mistake, again.  I think there are three types of forgiveness, not two as I said before.

The theology manuals tell us that God's forgiveness is not the same as our forgiveness.  God has the authority to absolve.  We don't.  This suggests two types of forgiveness - God's and ours.  But there are actually two types of forgiveness that the laity should practice, which makes three.

The three types of forgiveness are -

- God's forgiveness,

- forgiveness from the laity when the offender is repentant.  This type is referred to in the Catechism of Trent and in Scripture, for example by St Luke - "If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him; and if he repent, forgive him;"

- forgiveness from the laity when the offender is unrepentant.  This type is referred to in the theology manuals and is explained as "simply letting go of any ill will we might have toward them", as referenced above and certain reservations are attached to it.

In day to day life, the implications of the two types of forgiveness the laity are obliged to practice seem to centre around the question of how to behave towards the person we are obliged to forgive.  If the offender is repentant, we forgive them without reservation. If they aren't repentant we can distance ourselves from them and not resume any friendship.

Three types of forgiveness makes sense to me. So when someone starts talking about forgiveness, I think it's is important to ask what kind of forgiveness they mean, given that there are three types and they all have the same name.

[Baylee]

I made a mistake, again.  I think there are three types of forgiveness, not two as I said before.

The theology manuals tell us that God's forgiveness is not the same as our forgiveness.  God has the authority to absolve.  We don't.  This suggests two types of forgiveness - God's and ours.  But there are actually two types of forgiveness that the laity should practice, which makes three.

The three types of forgiveness are -

- God's forgiveness,

- forgiveness from the laity when the offender is repentant.  This type is referred to in the Catechism of Trent and in Scripture, for example by St Luke - "If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him; and if he repent, forgive him;"

- forgiveness from the laity when the offender is unrepentant.  This type is referred to in the theology manuals and is explained as "simply letting go of any ill will we might have toward them", as referenced above and certain reservations are attached to it.

In day to day life, the implications of the two types of forgiveness the laity are obliged to practice seem to centre around the question of how to behave towards the person we are obliged to forgive.  If the offender is repentant, we forgive them without reservation. If they aren't repentant we can distance ourselves from them and not resume any friendship.

Three types of forgiveness makes sense to me. So when someone starts talking about forgiveness, I think it's important to ask what kind of forgiveness they mean, given that there are three types and they all have the same name.

I think this is a good explanation AC regarding laity and forgiveness.

However, I do think that the question you had of God's forgiveness of those who were not repentant while He was on the Cross is a valid one:  Does that mean they went to Heaven?

I'm sure some might judge it blasphemous to even consider this theological question, but I'm guessing that this might have been a question that the Church entertained Herself. Before delving further into it myself, I think it shows that there could be two types of God's forgiveness.

If Christ forgave those that crucified Him/helped to crucify Him (those Jews and Romans alike) in the same way that He forgives us in the confessional/when we get baptized, then He forgave them before they accepted Him as their Lord and Savior. Of course, based on Catholic teaching that we must accept the Catholic Faith in order to get to Heaven, this doesn't make sense. In addition, He explicitly tells the good thief that he will be in Paradise with Him where He does not do that when He says, "Father forgive them...."

So, that leads me to believe that His forgiveness in that moment was some other kind of forgiveness.

Hopefully some others who are willing to actually have a theological conversation without judgment and accusations will chime in...of course, I know some of our best posters stopped posting for Lent.

[awkward customer]

However, I do think that the question you had of God's forgiveness of those who were not repentant while He was on the Cross is a valid one:  Does that mean they went to Heaven?

I'm sure some might judge it blasphemous to even consider this theological question, but I'm guessing that this might have been a question that the Church entertained Herself. Before delving further into it myself, I think it shows that there could be two types of God's forgiveness.

If Christ forgave those that crucified Him/helped to crucify Him (those Jews and Romans alike) in the same way that He forgives us in the confessional/when we get baptized, then He forgave them before they accepted Him as their Lord and Savior. Of course, based on Catholic teaching that we must accept the Catholic Faith in order to get to Heaven, this doesn't make sense. In addition, He explicitly tells the good thief that he will be in Paradise with Him where He does not do that when He says, "Father forgive them...."

So, that leads me to believe that His forgiveness in that moment was some other kind of forgiveness.

Please delve into this question.  I haven't found anything that addresses it, so I really don't know.

Before I realised that there are three types of forgiveness and that we need to be clear which kind we are talking about, I argued on this thread that Christ showed us how to respond to the unrepentant by praying for them to the Father.  But He didn't actually forgive them Himself - because they were unrepentant.   

But if Christ did forgive them when they were unrepentant, and the Father too, then they were forgiven before they repented as you say.  If they didn't get to Heaven unrepentant, then they must have repented after God forgave them, and this  would be the only occasion that has ever happened?  If this was an example of some other kind of God's forgiveness that doesn't require repentance and conversion first, it would a one-off and never to be repeated?

Where's Michael Wilson when you need him?

[Lynne]

Where's Michael Wilson when you need him?

off for Lent.

[awkward customer]

 It's all good, but 4:38 is on people who are difficult to forive because they think they're getting away with offending God.

This was very good, thank you.  No one gets away with anything because although anyone can refuse God's Mercy, they can't escape His Justice.  It might seem as if they do, here on Earth, but God's timing is not our timing.  Let them plot their ultimately futile intrigues.  Stay focused on God.   

[Julio]

Jesus told the good thief that he shall be in paradise with Him. This man died on the cross. We do not know as to what happened to these people who were forgiven by God while He was crucified. Did they continue to act in keeping with the will of God thereafter until they died? Or,  did they waste the grace of God? So to assume that all of them  went to heaven must be an error.  Their salvation is in the hands of God.

I am sure on what happened to St. Longinos who abandoned his being a member of Roman centurion after receiving God's miracle and grace. He for sure went to heaven.

[Miriam_M]

I tend to think of it as levels of forgiveness.  In addition to the person I referred to up top, there is a situation much worse that gnaws at me because I allow it to keep hurting.  (Fr. Ripperger talks about wounds and healing in the video I will post at the bottom of this, explaining how the refusal of suffering is the actual wound.)

I am speaking here of being the object of hatred.  Yes, I said hatred, and I do not use the word lightly or in exaggeration. It is nearly impossible for an unaided human being to regard hatred toward himself as light matter and easily forgiven, or forgiven gradually over time and distance. I have only been able to feel charitable (in the theological sense of the word) toward this person when aided by grace.  Only actual and sanctifying graces can overcome our natural shock and resentment when it is obvious that another wants to destroy us, and I think we lose credibility when we pretend otherwise.

The command is, IOW, to seek the grace to forgive.  That we are required to do, i.m.o., in an absolute sense.

Here's the video. I post it because I believe it pertains to the thread.