Accepting Apology

Started by Heinrich, January 20, 2023, 08:15:07 PM

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Julio

^^In addition it is wrong for you to say that unrepentant sinners must not be forgiven. You repeatedly tried to say that was right. It was a so grave error that puts ones soul in great peril of going to hell. You must be careful next time.

awkward customer

#181
Quote from: Julio on March 16, 2023, 06:28:42 PM^^In addition it is wrong for you to say that unrepentant sinners must not be forgiven. You repeatedly tried to say that was right. It was a so grave error that puts ones soul in great peril of going to hell. You must be careful next time.

Stop twisting my words.  I did not say "must not" be forgiven.

I had no idea that we could forgive someone and still sue them in court.  But that's what the Catechism of Trent says.  So it must be true.

So, I am obliged to forgive you for twisting my words.  But I can put you on ignore if I choose to and this would still constitute forgiveness.

It seems that forgiveness is a walk in the park compared to what I thought it was.

awkward customer

#182
If Christ forgave the unrepentant sinners who crucified Him, I took this to mean that they got to Heaven.

Did they get to Heaven?





 



 


awkward customer

And what about the unrepentant thief?

If the unrepentant sinners who crucified Christ were forgiven by God the Father and went to Heaven despite being unrepentant, why not the unrepentant thief.


awkward customer

#184
Quote from: Bernadette on March 16, 2023, 04:11:50 PM
QuoteI thought that forgiving someone meant forgetting the harm done, including debt.  I also thought it meant that any friendship or relationship should carry on as before.
 

I think that this is a common misconception.

You're right, and people assume, as I did, that if Christ forgave the unrepentant sinners who crucified Him, then they must have got to Heaven.   

But if the unrepentant can get to Heaven, it follows that there's no real need for repentance, or Confession, as the Protestants insist.  Because Christ forgave the unrepentants who crucified Him so He's bound to forgive us.   My way out of this was to insist that Christ asked God the Father to forgive them instead.

And then there's the question - do the unrepentant sinners remain unrepentant once they get to Heaven? 

It's a problem.

 

Baylee

Quote from: Julio on March 16, 2023, 05:34:36 PM
Quote from: awkward customer on March 16, 2023, 03:29:09 AMAnd the Vatican II theologians take the same passage and assert that we are obliged to forgive the unrepentant.

Coincidence? 

Perhaps when Julio makes accusations of blasphemy, he doesn't realise who the blasphemer really is.

Father forgive him, for he knows not what he does.
Indeed, those were the words spoken by Jesus. Interpretation against that that He did not will the forgiveness of those sinners who did not ask for repentance must be blasphemos. It is clear and unquivocal words that was spoken by God. It is what it is.

That being the act of Jesus as man should be emulated by His believers. It does not mean the will of His believers must bind God.

Julio, we all know that Bible verses aren't always what they appear to be. They aren't always obvious and unequivocal.  That is why Catholics typically check into Church teaching to see what the Church's interpretation is of them. Good Catholics can question bible verses so long as they remain open to what the Church teaches.  You have repeatedly judged your fellow Catholics here as blasphemers. 

And even though both of us have since changed our views (after consulting Church teaching and not taking Julio's word for it, mind you), you have not let up.  I find it interesting that you didn't bother to respond to the post I made that delineated the Church teaching which also included gray areas (your lack of response leads me to believe that you don't agree that there even could be gray areas; it also leads me to believe that your idea of forgiveness does not line up with what the Church actually teaches).

Baylee

Quote from: awkward customer on March 17, 2023, 03:50:23 AM
Quote from: Julio on March 16, 2023, 06:28:42 PM^^In addition it is wrong for you to say that unrepentant sinners must not be forgiven. You repeatedly tried to say that was right. It was a so grave error that puts ones soul in great peril of going to hell. You must be careful next time.

Stop twisting my words.  I did not say "must not" be forgiven.

I had no idea that we could forgive someone and still sue them in court.  But that's what the Catechism of Trent says.  So it must be true.

So, I am obliged to forgive you for twisting my words.  But I can put you on ignore if I choose to and this would still constitute forgiveness.

It seems that forgiveness is a walk in the park compared to what I thought it was.

Yes, you never said that.  Nor have I.  The issue was always whether we must forgive others even if they do not ask for forgiveness. The issue was always what was meant by "forgiveness". Interestingly enough the OP was about accepting an apology.  LOL


Baylee

Quote from: awkward customer on March 15, 2023, 04:24:09 PM
Quote from: Baylee on March 15, 2023, 06:11:15 AMTo say that Jesus actually forgave the Jews (and others) by saying this on the Cross means that the Jews are in fact forgiven and do not need to accept Christ as their Savior nor the Catholic Faith as the Truth. 

Similarly, if we are obliged to forgive the unrepentant, and they accept our forgiveness, do they still need to repent? Why would they, if they are already forgiven?

I think a new theology of forgiveness has been created for a narcissistic age.  Narcissists cannot, will not, accept responsibility for their actions.  In a narcissistic age like ours, people don't want to be held accountable.  So now they have a new theology of forgiveness which means they don't have to be.  They are to be forgiven whether they are repentant or not.

If Christ's words on the Cross don't mean what the proponents of Vatican II forgiveness insist they mean, then the new theology falls apart.





I typically forgive most injuries/people in time.  I am currently dealing with terrible things done and said by a couple of narcissists in the family...who we know will never apologize or see any wrongdoing on their parts. It is very difficult to truly let go of the anger.   

awkward customer

Quote from: Baylee on March 17, 2023, 07:23:27 AMI typically forgive most injuries/people in time.  I am currently dealing with terrible things done and said by a couple of narcissists in the family...who we know will never apologize or see any wrongdoing on their parts. It is very difficult to truly let go of the anger.   

Narcissists in the family - good luck.

Reader

I feel obliged to forgive those who ask for forgiveness, and I try to forgive those who don't. Not always easy. If I'm messing up, I guess God will have to put it on my purgatory tab. Ultimately, I wouldn't sweat the details too much though. God knows when you're actually trying to do good and He's full of mercy if you ask.

Jmartyr

Helluva thread for such a simple question.
"If anyone is excommunicated it is not I, but the excommunicators." - Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
" A false church cannot have a true mission." - St. Francis De Sales
" The way is open for us to deprive councils of their authority, contradict their acts freely, and profess confidently, whatever SEEMS to be true. " - Martin Luther

Julio

Quote from: Baylee on March 17, 2023, 06:28:58 AMJulio, we all know that Bible verses aren't always what they appear to be. They aren't always obvious and unequivocal.  That is why Catholics typically check into Church teaching to see what the Church's interpretation is of them. Good Catholics can question bible verses so long as they remain open to what the Church teaches.  You have repeatedly judged your fellow Catholics here as blasphemers. 

And even though both of us have since changed our views (after consulting Church teaching and not taking Julio's word for it, mind you), you have not let up.  I find it interesting that you didn't bother to respond to the post I made that delineated the Church teaching which also included gray areas (your lack of response leads me to believe that you don't agree that there even could be gray areas; it also leads me to believe that your idea of forgiveness does not line up with what the Church actually teaches).
I need not respond to it because nothing is to be fixed in the truth.

Again, what is provided for in the Bible is the truth. Speaking against that is blasphemous.

Julio

Quote from: awkward customer on March 17, 2023, 03:50:23 AMStop twisting my words.  I did not say "must not" be forgiven.

I had no idea that we could forgive someone and still sue them in court.  But that's what the Catechism of Trent says.  So it must be true.

So, I am obliged to forgive you for twisting my words.  But I can put you on ignore if I choose to and this would still constitute forgiveness.

It seems that forgiveness is a walk in the park compared to what I thought it was.
You stated that no one must forgive unrepentat sinners:
Quote from: awkward customer on February 06, 2023, 04:11:55 AM
Quote from: Julio on February 05, 2023, 06:08:18 PMThis is what I mean by we must forgive anyone who offend us even if they do not hear us. That is not to communicate to them but to comply with this command of God:


Nonsense.  God does not forgive the unrepentant.  If He did, Hell would be empty.  Is Hell empty?  No.  Who is in Hell?  The unrepentant.

Your version of forgiveness only works if you re-write Matthew 18, which clearly states that we are to treat those who won't 'hear us' - the unrepentant - as publicans and tax collectors. 

Are you really saying that you know better than Matthew 18?

^^That kind of frame of mind can bring ones soul to hell.

Julio

Quote from: awkward customer on March 17, 2023, 04:28:54 AMAnd what about the unrepentant thief?

If the unrepentant sinners who crucified Christ were forgiven by God the Father and went to Heaven despite being unrepentant, why not the unrepentant thief.

God did not will that. It does not translate one who is offended or trespassed should not forgive the unrepentant.

Julio

Quote from: Baylee on March 17, 2023, 06:34:25 AMYes, you never said that.  Nor have I.  The issue was always whether we must forgive others even if they do not ask for forgiveness. The issue was always what was meant by "forgiveness". Interestingly enough the OP was about accepting an apology.  LOL


No, you said that:

Quote from: Baylee on March 07, 2023, 01:39:11 PMI had a thought about the Jews.  Our Lord does not forgive them UNTIL they repent and convert.  The more I think on this, I don't see where Our Lord forgives without repentance.  And if that is the case, why would Our Lord expect more from us?