Accepting Apology

[awkward customer]

Here is a very relevant article by Father William G. Most (1914 - 1999)

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/father-forgive-them-12323

(More info about Fr. Most and a collection of his works: https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/index.cfm. )

After reading this I can understand why there is so much confusion on this issue.  Fr Most says neither yes or no.

[Julio]

Produce a quote from anywhere in Scripture or elsewhere which shows that God forgives those who do not repent.

Or retract your accusation.

May I please to cite this:

"When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him and the criminals there, one on his right, the other on his left. Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do." They divided his garments by casting lots." Luke (23:33&34)

Nothing is said about repentance before forgiveness was made by Jesus. That is the will of Jesus and His will is never inconsistent from the will of God the Father and the Holy Ghost. Thereby, I remain

[Julio]

[/quote]

Here is a very relevant article by Father William G. Most (1914 - 1999)


https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/father-forgive-them-12323

(More info about Fr. Most and a collection of his works: https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/index.cfm. )

Yes, this is it:

Therefore, Jesus did ask for the grace of forgiveness. His prayer was surely heard, for at the very moment he was painfully earning the very thing he asked for. And of course, since he knew he was/is God, he himself granted what he himself asked.

Truly, my point of blasphemy against the truth that Jesus did forgive these sinners sans their repentance.

[awkward customer]

Produce a quote from anywhere in Scripture or elsewhere which shows that God forgives those who do not repent.

Or retract your accusation.

May I please to cite this:

"When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him and the criminals there, one on his right, the other on his left. Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do." They divided his garments by casting lots." Luke (23:33&34)

I knew you were going to quote this.

[awkward customer]

I finally understand what's going on!!!!  At last.  There are indeed two types of forgiveness.  Traditional Catholic forgiveness and Vatican II forgiveness.  The argument on this thread is basically between these two versions.

This article from the Catholic World Report explains Vatican II forgiveness even better than Fr William G Most.  For example -

All people desire the experience of forgiveness, so it comes as no surprise that every major religion offers that possibility. Christianity, however, makes the personal experience of it hinge on a believer's forgiveness of others: "Forgive us our trespasses – as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Having taught His disciples those words, Jesus now showed them a concrete application of the petition by this petition: "Father, forgive them," which presupposes that Christ the Man has already extended His forgiveness to His executioners and detractors.

What does it take to forgive? A unique mental attitude is required at the natural level; only an infusion of divine grace can elevate that sentiment to the supernatural level. Only then do we perceive that forgiveness is not just an option or a luxury but a necessity.

https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2018/03/23/seven-last-words-from-the-cross-father-forgive-them/

The above article is reassuringly traditional when in comes to Sacramental Confession.  But it treats forgiveness outside the Confessional as something quite different, although without actually saying so.

According to the Vatican II version of forgiveness described in the article, forgiveness is a form of healing which you can only acquire by forgiving the unrepentant unconditionally. 

Forgiveness therefore depends on our ability to forgive not on the willingness of the offender to repent.  This shifts the burden of forgiveness from the offender onto the victim. 

This shift is an inversion, which is a bad sign, but there's more.  An "infusion of divine grace' elevates the "desire for forgiveness" to the "supernatural level".  That's when we realise that forgiveness is a "necessity".  Since we all desire the "experience of forgiveness", if we forgive unconditionally, some kind of supernatural effect will take hold of us and the necessary transformation will take place.  To achieve this, we have to forgive no matter what.  Because if we don't, we won't heal.  'Experience' and 'feelings' are the key here and to achieve Vatican II forgiveness we must have a "unique mental attitude"  which will allow God's Grace to transform us from being vengeful and revenge seeking into true followers of Christ on the Cross when He uttered those words.

The question then becomes - will the intended recipient of our forgiveness actually accept our forgiveness?  Note how the question is not - does the person have contrition?  The question is - will they accept our forgiveness?

I found a number of articles which discuss V2 forgiveness.  They all seem to make a distinction between Sacramental Confession with its necessity for repentance, penance, restitution and forgiveness, and day to day forgiveness, which is basically as described above.

I've only just discovered this, so there will be points I haven't covered.  But at least I now know that when I am arguing with Julio, I am actually arguing with Vatican II.

Now I understand, or am beginning to. 

[Baylee]

It absolutely does matter.  Catholicism must make sense.  It must be reasonable. 

You keep insisting that God requires us to forgive the unrepentant when He clearly doesn't forgive the unrepentant. 

This makes no sense and nonsense isn't Catholic.

With all due respect I see this as blasphemy. There is no doubt that those people that Jesus forgave while He was crucified were unrepentant. You and Baylee cannot be more Catholic than Jesus who made this Church.

Produce a quote from anywhere in Scripture or elsewhere which shows that God forgives those who do not repent.

Or retract your accusation.

And it is quite an accusation. 

To say that Jesus actually forgave the Jews (and others) by saying this on the Cross means that the Jews are in fact forgiven and do not need to accept Christ as their Savior nor the Catholic Faith as the Truth. 

Surely, that is not what the Church teaches?

But maybe Julio believes that?

[Baylee]

I found another article written by Fr Most:

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=77

This I believe might be the answer:

In brief, then, He did ask that the grace of forgiveness be offered. That does not at all say that all to whom it was then being offered accepted it. Sadly, as St. Paul laments at length in Romans 9-11, most of them did not accept.

I think these words of Christ are the words wherein He verbalizes the purpose and meaning of His actions in that moment:  offering forgiveness to all.

[awkward customer]

Traditionally, forgiveness is always being offered. All anyone has to do to receive it is repent.

However, according to the Modernist theory of forgiveness being promoted on this thread, if we forgive the unrepentant, we will experience a healing infusion of Divine Grace which will take our will to forgive to a whole new spiritual level, resulting in our healing and transformation.  Except there's no 'if' allowed. We are obliged to forgive the unrepentant.
 
Therefore Modernist, Vatican II forgiveness depends on the victim being obliged to forgive rather than the aggressor being obliged to repent.

Which is quite a turnaround from the Traditional view.  It's an inversion really, which is a bad sign.

I knew something was going on.  I didn't realise until now that  Vatican II forgiveness even existed. 

[Julio]

And it is quite an accusation. 

To say that Jesus actually forgave the Jews (and others) by saying this on the Cross means that the Jews are in fact forgiven and do not need to accept Christ as their Savior nor the Catholic Faith as the Truth. 

Surely, that is not what the Church teaches?

But maybe Julio believes that?

Jesus willed that forgiveness. He cannot be inconsistent to the will of God for Himself is among the person of the Holy Trinity.

[Julio]

I knew you were going to quote this.

Then you must know that no one whom Jesus forgave contrite or repent. Don't you?

Moreover, I do not know of your claims against me arguing for Vatincan II. My point is not that, because the  word of God  is from the Bible. 

You cannot change Luke 23:33&34. I therefore remain.

[Baylee]

And it is quite an accusation. 

To say that Jesus actually forgave the Jews (and others) by saying this on the Cross means that the Jews are in fact forgiven and do not need to accept Christ as their Savior nor the Catholic Faith as the Truth. 

Surely, that is not what the Church teaches?

But maybe Julio believes that?

Jesus willed that forgiveness. He cannot be inconsistent to the will of God for Himself is among the person of the Holy Trinity.

So the Jews are forgiven Julio?

[Julio]

Traditionally, forgiveness is always being offered. All anyone has to do to receive it is repent.

However, according to the Modernist theory of forgiveness being promoted on this thread, if we forgive the unrepentant, we will experience a healing infusion of Divine Grace which will take our will to forgive to a whole new spiritual level, resulting in our healing and transformation.  Except there's no 'if' allowed. We are obliged to forgive the unrepentant.
 
Therefore Modernist, Vatican II forgiveness depends on the victim being obliged to forgive rather than the aggressor being obliged to repent.

Which is quite a turnaround from the Traditional view.  It's an inversion really, which is a bad sign.

I knew something was going on.  I didn't realise until now that  Vatican II forgiveness even existed. 

No modernist ever existed while Jesus was crucified. He uttered the words and He willed it.

[Julio]

So the Jews are forgiven Julio?

Only those that Jesus addressed at that moment, I submit. Remember not all of the people who were present were Jews. Those excutors of Jesus were Romans. Don't you know that?

[Baylee]

So the Jews are forgiven Julio?

Only those that Jesus addressed at that moment, I submit. Remember not all of the people who were present were Jews. Those excutors of Jesus were Romans. Don't you know that?

Yes, I knew that Julio.

I still hold that there was an offer of forgiveness to them and to all, not actual forgiveness.  I am still looking for Church teaching that He ACTUALLY gave them special forgiveness meanwhile all those other Jews and non-Jews that He wasn't addressing (?) are not forgiven? 

[Baylee]

That's quite an explanation Julio.

I can't help thinking that if Christ had forgiven the unrepentant sinners who crucified Him, He would simply have said - I forgive you.

 

Yes, contrast it with what He says to the "good thief".